Logistics of dough-in with BIAB

[Shawn Lewis]

Hey, all,

I'm new to all grain (batch #2 today) and newish to beer brewing period (maybe a dozen batches under my belt)

I'm doing a 100 degree rest with the bag in, no problem, (heat water to just over 100 degrees, add grains, stir, cover, take off burner, cover with towels) but then having difficulty getting to the right mash temp. Today, I found that having the grain in the pot (in the bag) while trying to re-heat to 140 degrees hinders things.

It seems like the grain in the pot impedes heat propagation through the water, so it is heating up at the bottom of the pot underneath the veggie steamer basket I have in the bottom to keep the bag from melting, but not up through the grain so much (that's what my probe thermometer says).

To deal with that, today, I took the grain out, after the 100 degree rest, drained it a little bit, reheated the water more easily, and then put the grain back in. But, the cooled grain really brought temps down when I put it back in, so then I had to keep heating it. I had to stir constantly, to keep the fluid moving (to enable heat to propagate through the liquid).

I ended up getting close to the temp I was shooting for, but it was not the sort of precision I like (in anything I do).

It was a pain in the butt.

Anybody have a easy method for dealing with this?

 

[RPh_Guy]

It seems like the grain in the pot impedes heat propagation through the water

Absolutely it does, to the point where I would recommend against single-vessel step mashing, unless you have some kind of recirculation system.

 

[Immocles]

Anybody have a easy method for dealing with this?

Try a single infusion mash? 146F-154F for an hour or so. The only additional thing I used to do was dunk sparge in 170F water for 10mins or so at the end of the mash. I'm not sure how commonly biab step mashes are done?

 

[Shawn Lewis]

Absolutely it does, to the point where I would recommend against single-vessel step mashing, unless you have some kind of recirculation system.

What is multi-vessel step mashing? (The name seems to speak for itself, but if you don't mind explaining how that might work, I'd appreciate it.)

 

[Shawn Lewis]

Try a single infusion mash? 146F-154F for an hour or so. The only additional thing I used to do was dunk sparge in 170F water for 10mins or so at the end of the mash. I'm not sure how commonly biab step mashes are done?

I'm not really interested in a single infusion, but thanks.

 

[McKnuckle]

The only way to practically perform stepped mashes in a single vessel (bag or not) is with recirculation, where the hottest liquid at the bottom is continuously pumped over the top of the mash. You could also stir constantly but who wants to do that?

Also, your initial rest was 40 degrees cooler than your next rest, so a big delta there. What was the point of a rest at 100F? And why only 140F, which is very low for a beta amylase rest? Just curious, since for your second all grain batch, you seem to be doing something fairly challenging without an obvious explanation.

You could try a couple of things for fun: Dough-in at 150F. Stir, cover, and put the pot in your oven where it will probably drop a couple of degrees. Set the oven temp to its lowest (170?) and leave it alone. Or set the temp to 200F, maybe higher, and the mash temp will slowly rise over an hour into the mid-150s. Finish off by setting the oven to 300 and get to 170F, rest for 5 minutes, and pull the mash out of the oven.

Another one is to dough-in at 160F, stir, let the mash settle to maybe 157F or so, and allow it to drop naturally over the hour. You will get both types of amylase working with this type of mash, despite what the internet tells you.

Finally, you can do step mashes the old fashioned way with multiple additions of boiling water. You start with a thick mash to compensate for the amount of water added during the process. There are calculators on line (Brewer's Friend for one) that can help you figure out how much water to add based on current and target temps.

 

[Shawn Lewis]

The only way to practically perform stepped mashes in a single vessel (bag or not) is with recirculation, where the hottest liquid at the bottom is continuously pumped over the top of the mash. You could also stir constantly but who wants to do that?

Also, your initial rest was 40 degrees cooler than your next rest, so a big delta there. What was the point of a rest at 100F? And why only 140F, which is very low for a beta amylase rest? Just curious, since for your second all grain batch, you seem to be doing something fairly challenging without an obvious explanation.

You could try a couple of things for fun: Dough-in at 150F. Stir, cover, and put the pot in your oven where it will probably drop a couple of degrees. Set the oven temp to its lowest (170?) and leave it alone. Or set the temp to 200F, maybe higher, and the mash temp will slowly rise over an hour into the mid-150s. Finish off by setting the oven to 300 and get to 170F, rest for 5 minutes, and pull the mash out of the oven.

Another one is to dough-in at 160F, stir, let the mash settle to maybe 157F or so, and allow it to drop naturally over the hour. You will get both types of amylase working with this type of mash, despite what the internet tells you.

Well, it doesn't seem complicated to me. My understanding of what I read about dough-ins was that the 100 degree rest produces more enzymes for better utilizing the sugars that are produced at higher temps.

I've also read that 130 - 140 mash temp produces less non-fermentables.

Basically, I'm shooting for a dryer beer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What is multi-vessel step mashing?

Boiling water infusions is what I had in mind.

Basically, I'm shooting for a dryer beer.

You want to use a couple beta amylase rests. 100-139°F isn't really helping your goal.

For dryness you also need to use healthy yeast (aeration +/- nutrients) and/or you can add sugar and/or adjust water minerals (increase sulfate, lower chloride).

 

[McKnuckle]

Well, it clearly IS complicated since you couldn't pull it off. No offense. But that's what I meant by "complicated" - not conceptually complicated, but practically so.

Here's a good article on the different mashing temps and what they do. 145-150 is considered beta amylase peak territory which converts starch to maltose; 154-162 is for alpha which gets you unfermentable dextrins. 150-154 is sort of in between.

The temps under 140 also favor beta amylase, but as we get closer to 130 we enter the protein rest range, which could degrade medium chain proteins and potentially make your beer lack body. That's why brewers aim higher.

One more tip: If you choose to stay in the low range and do only a beta amylase rest, mash for longer than 60 minutes. It simply takes more time to convert when only the starch molecule ends are being snipped off.

 

[Shawn Lewis]

I

Well, it clearly IS complicated since you couldn't pull it off. No offense. But that's what I meant by "complicated" - not conceptually complicated, but practically so.

Here's a good article on the different mashing temps and what they do. 145-150 is considered beta amylase peak territory which converts starch to maltose; 154-162 is for alpha which gets you unfermentable dextrins. 150-154 is sort of in between.

The temps under 140 also favor beta amylase, but as we get closer to 130 we enter the protein rest range, which could degrade medium chain proteins and potentially make your beer lack body. That's why brewers aim higher.

One more tip: If you choose to stay in the low range and do only a beta amylase rest, mash for longer than 60 minutes. It simply takes more time to convert when only the starch molecule ends are being snipped off.

Thanks.

 

[Shawn Lewis]

Boiling water infusions is what I had in mind.


You want to use a couple beta amylase rests. 100-139°F isn't really helping your goal.

For dryness you also need to use healthy yeast (aeration +/- nutrients) and/or you can add sugar and/or adjust water minerals (increase sulfate, lower chloride).

Oh, I see. Adding boiling water to bring up the temp? That's an interesting idea.

Thank you.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Oh, I see. Adding boiling water to bring up the temp? That's an interesting idea.

Thank you.

No problem, @McKnuckle described it:

you can do step mashes the old fashioned way with multiple additions of boiling water. You start with a thick mash to compensate for the amount of water added during the process. There are calculators on line (Brewer's Friend for one) that can help you figure out how much water to add based on current and target temps.

If you have the budget, some kind of recirculation system would make things easier if you're set on step mashing (which isn't needed for a dry beer).

 

[Shawn Lewis]

Boiling water infusions is what I had in mind.


You want to use a couple beta amylase rests. 100-139°F isn't really helping your goal.

For dryness you also need to use healthy yeast (aeration +/- nutrients) and/or you can add sugar and/or adjust water minerals (increase sulfate, lower chloride).

This article: https://byo.com/article/the-science-of-step-mashing/

...has a couple sample step "programs" displayed at the bottom of the screen. The one labeled "Extract Efficient Mash" shows a rest at 100 degrees.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The one labeled "Extract Efficient Mash" shows a rest at 100 degrees.

1. That's debatable.
2. Your goal isn't "extract efficiency"; your goal is high fermentability. Rests below gelatinization aren't really going to help you with that, and they aren't necessary in general.

 

[LittleRiver]

...Anybody have a easy method for dealing with this?

Immocles gave you the correct answer above, a single infusion mash. I know you said you're not interested in it, but that IS the best solution for what you have described (including your experience level, no offense intended).

Don't worry about step mashing until you get your process down, and are confident making great beer with a single infusion. At that point you may very well discover what many others already have -- there is nothing wrong with a single infusion mash. It is not an inferior technique. It will not result in inferior beer. Try it, you'll like it.

Use the free Priceless BIAB calculator to calculate your strike water temperature and volume.

Here's an article that compares single infusion to step mashing, with this final conclusion: "the simplicity of single infusion far outweighs any possible benefit from step mashing, even if it makes a difference."

 

[Shawn Lewis]

1. That's debatable.
2. Your goal isn't "extract efficiency"; your goal is high fermentability. Rests below gelatinization aren't really going to help you with that, and they aren't necessary in general.

What's the difference between "extract efficiency" and high fermentability?

 

[RPh_Guy]

What's the difference between "extract efficiency" and high fermentability?

Extract efficiency is how much of the starch is extracted from the grain and converted to sugars.

That phrase was used by Palmer, but better terms are "conversion efficiency" and "lauter efficiency", the product of which is "mash efficiency", but these are all dealing with getting sugar out of the grain and into the kettle, nothing to do with fermentability.

 

[Shawn Lewis]

Immocles gave you the correct answer above, a single infusion mash. I know you said you're not interested in it, but that IS the best solution for what you have described (including your experience level, no offense intended).

Don't worry about step mashing until you get your process down, and are confident making great beer with a single infusion. At that point you may very well discover what many others already have -- there is nothing wrong with a single infusion mash. It is not an inferior technique. It will not result in inferior beer. Try it, you'll like it.

Use the free Priceless BIAB calculator to calculate your strike water temperature and volume.

Here's an article that compares single infusion to step mashing, with this final conclusion: "the simplicity of single infusion far outweighs any possible benefit from step mashing, even if it makes a difference."

I hear ya. Thanks.

 

[Shawn Lewis]

Extract efficiency is how much of the starch is extracted from the grain and converted to sugars.

That's not the same as "high fermentability"?

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's not the same as "high fermentability"?

Different types of sugars are created during mashing. Some of them are not [generally] fermentable, called dextrins. A high percentage of dextrins creates a less fermentable wort, even if you have a high mash efficiency.

 

[Shawn Lewis]

Thanks everyone. It does sound like there's no real point (o

Different types of sugars are created during mashing, some of them are not fermentable, called dextrins. A high percentage of dextrins creates a less fermentable wort, even if you have a high mash efficiency.

Okay. Thanks for the education.

 

[Shawn Lewis]

Thanks everyone, for chipping in. I probably will forego the step mashing and keep it simple and easy. I appreciate the help.

 

[BruceH]

Am I the only biab er who step mashes and stirs when heating to the next step? It's not that difficult with propane and 5.5 gallon finished batches. I monitor temps with an electronic remote probe. Cover the pot with a lid and blanket during the steps.

 

[Bassman2003]

I have a step mashed a lot over the years. It can have an impact but for fermentability, time is something to consider. Step mashes end up being longer mashes than typical single infusions. So, if you want high fermentability with single infusion, extend the time of your mash.

Your step at 100f is referred to as a beta-glucan rest. This rest helps thin the wort viscosity and break down gummy parts of the grain. This rest works well for high wheat grists but is largely unnecessary for modern barley malts. I agree with the others, certainly do not expect to do this on your 2nd brew! Imho, you are diving pretty deep in the water and risking being overwhelmed by the hobby. You have the rest of your life to brew and the hobby will take its own course, but start with something you can execute well.

Step mashing and BIAB is tricky because of grain scorching. In my experience, running any kind of heat with the mash below geletinization temps results in a lot of particles getting out of the bag and on the bottom of the pot. Not always a disaster, but can be. I use water infusions until I get into the 140's F then turn any heat on.

 

[wilserbrewer]

You want easy and highly fermentable dry beer....try an overnight mash, sleep while the enzymes work lol

 

[LittleRiver]

...veggie steamer basket I have in the bottom to keep the bag from melting...

With a single infusion you won't need to add heat during the mash, so you won't need the steamer basket.

The biggest influence on your extraction efficiency will be the crush of your grains. On traditional brewing rigs a fine crush can lead to flow problems when draining (stuck sparge). That's why suppliers of crushed grains have their mills set for a coarse crush. To get good efficiency with that coarse crush, one or more sparge steps are generally required to rinse more sugars out of the grain.

BIAB doesn't have the draining issues that traditional rigs do, so you can grind your grains as fine as you like. With a fine crush, extraction efficiency is so good that sparging becomes optional. I use a .025" mill gap setting and get brewhouse efficiency in the low 80's. That's without sparging or re-circulating. If you don't already own your own grain mill, make that a priority.

Rather than apply heat to hold temps during the mash, rely on good insulation. I bought a $15 youth sleeping bag that fits my rig perfectly. Holding within a degree or two for an hour is not a problem.

Another benefit of a fine crush is that full conversion happens much faster. If your mash temps fall off in the latter part of the mash, it's not a problem because full conversion probably occurred within the first 10-20 minutes. You need longer than that for full flavor extraction, so mash for about an hour.

 

[Shawn Lewis]

With a single infusion you won't need to add heat during the mash, so you won't need the steamer basket.

The biggest influence on your extraction efficiency will be the crush of your grains. On traditional brewing rigs a fine crush can lead to flow problems when draining (stuck sparge). That's why suppliers of crushed grains have their mills set for a coarse crush. To get good efficiency with that coarse crush, one or more sparge steps are generally required to rinse more sugars out of the grain.

BIAB doesn't have the draining issues that traditional rigs do, so you can grind your grains as fine as you like. With a fine crush, extraction efficiency is so good that sparging becomes optional. I use a .025" mill gap setting and get brewhouse efficiency in the low 80's. That's without sparging or re-circulating. If you don't already own your own grain mill, make that a priority.

Rather than apply heat to hold temps during the mash, rely on good insulation. I bought a $15 youth sleeping bag that fits my rig perfectly. Holding within a degree or two for an hour is not a problem.

Another benefit of a fine crush is that full conversion happens much faster. If your mash temps fall off in the latter part of the mash, it's not a problem because full conversion probably occurred within the first 10-20 minutes. You need longer than that for full flavor extraction, so mash for about an hour.

Awesome. Thank you!

 

[dochawk]

The only way to practically perform stepped mashes in a single vessel (bag or not) is with recirculation,

No, not the only way.

I've long used a cooler.

Put in the grain, add water for protein rest.

Than put a plate or bowl or whatever on top to break the pour, and add boiling water in an amount calculated to reach mash temp.

Hm, I have about 20 hours to remember the temperature I've always used . . .

 

[RPh_Guy]

No, not the only way.

I've long used a cooler.

Put in the grain, add water for protein rest.

Than put a plate or bowl or whatever on top to break the pour, and add boiling water in an amount calculated to reach mash temp.

Hm, I have about 20 hours to remember the temperature I've always used . . .

Where do you get the boiling water? I presume it comes from a second vessel and you aren't doing the entire brewing process with just a cooler.

 

[dochawk]

The kitchen, of course.

Natural gas costs *far* less than propane!

that, and you run through a tank *really* fast if you heat the water with it . . .

 

[McKnuckle]

No, not the only way.

In this thread, the OP is directly heating a single vessel BIAB rig, hence the bias of my reply. But please notice what else I mentioned:

Finally, you can do step mashes the old fashioned way with multiple additions of boiling water.

So yeah, of course you can do that.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The kitchen, of course.

Natural gas costs *far* less than propane!

that, and you run through a tank *really* fast if you heat the water with it . . .

You're using more than one brewing vessel: a kettle and a cooler.

 

[Kazama]

I also do BIAB and in order to get precise mash temps, I added a 120V RIMS heater. A 120V RIMS easily gets up to and maintains mash temperatures within 0.1F. I typically mash with around 16-18 gallons this way.
I pump from the kettle to the RIMS, then through a counterflow chiller before going back to the kettle. The counterflow isn't needed for mashing but I like to have it all connected and sterilized for when it's time to drop temps later. This setup is working great and I don't have to insulate the kettle anymore.

 

[Nubiwan]

Someone want to comment on the following? I am trying to decide between a single infusion and sparging. Came across this comment.

If I mash 90 minutes, is that extra 30 mins the same as a sparge step? Any reason (recipe based, temp control etc.) you would not want to mash 90 minutes?

And what potential problems present with finer grain?

When I was reading up on BIAB prior to my first batch, a very common recommendation was to mill the grain super fine, with folks contending this would increase efficiency without risk because there is no actual sparge step. In listening to a recent interview with Pat Hollingdale, the Australian man who basically invented BIAB, on the great Basic Brewing Radio podcast, I learned this was an unnecessary step that could potentially lead to problems. Pat recommended utilizing a more standard crush size and mashing for 90 minutes as opposed to 60, explaining that the other methods actually extend beyond the 60 minutes due to the added time it takes to sparge. Sounds good to me.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Someone want to comment on the following? I am trying to decide between a single infusion and sparging. Came across this comment.

If I mash 90 minutes, is that extra 30 mins the same as a sparge step? Any reason (recipe based, temp control etc.) you would not want to mash 90 minutes?

And what potential problems present with finer grain?

Mashing longer may or may not increase your efficiency, but it is not a substitute for sparging.

 

[RM-MN]

Someone want to comment on the following? I am trying to decide between a single infusion and sparging. Came across this comment.

If I mash 90 minutes, is that extra 30 mins the same as a sparge step? Any reason (recipe based, temp control etc.) you would not want to mash 90 minutes?

And what potential problems present with finer grain?

If you don't have complete conversion after one hour a 90 minute mash can help. However, with BIAB the crush of the grain can me much finer than a conventional mash tun and with that the conversion happens quite quickly and additional time will do nothing for you. When you drain the wort from the grains there will always be sugars in the remaining grain so a sparge will always get more sugars.

 

[soccerdad]

If you lift your bag with a pulley, you can bring the bag out of the wort, but just above it where steam from the wort keeps the grain warm. Then lower the bag when you hit the target.

 

[Nanuk-O-Dah-Nort]

If you lift your bag with a pulley, you can bring the bag out of the wort, but just above it where steam from the wort keeps the grain warm. Then lower the bag when you hit the target.

AND if you measure the temp of the grains ( or wort) just after pulling, one of the online calculators will tell you what temp is required in your wort (Pseudo strike temp/secondary strike temp) so your now Hot grain will bring it down to where you want it, or near so.
You will need to weigh your wet grain to get accurate numbers.
But that is not hard to do.

 

[cmac62]

If you want a brut type beer you can always add gluco amylase to the mash, or during fermentation and the this will help you get the very fermentable wort you are looking for. I've gotten FGs below 1.000 SG. I'm not sure how much the step mashing makes a difference, but I know gluco does the trick.