List of PJ Electrical Diagrams

[doug293cz]

Doug293cz,

I'm happy to say "That makes sense!!"

I was planning on keeping all of the electrons for each circuit separate in the control box, especially since only one of the circuits will be multipurposed - the 120V/20A circuit that powers up the BCS-462, pumps, valves, AC/DC transformers and the relay boards. The other three circuits are dedicated to running their respective hot water heater elements (HLT, BK, RIMS), so the electronics on those circuits should be simple. The only place where these four circuits will technically "meet" is at the BCS-462, since it will control the SSR/Contactors that drive everything. The "brain" sits electrically behind the SSRs and Contactors, which physically separate the electrons in the other circuits.

Am I getting it, or am I overlooknig something?

Thanks!
Namako

I think you've got the idea. I put together a little schematic for the power input switching that should do what you want to do (if anyone sees any issues, please let me know.)

• Neither of the 240V neutrals make any connections inside the control box
• The neutral for the RIMS heater connects only to the RIMS heater, and nothing else
• A common neutral is used for all pumps and control circuits
• The RIMS power switch must be rated for the full RIMS current, or else replaced by another contactor + switch
• The Main Power switch and EPO can be low current
• The EPO switch must latch in position when pressed
• The SSR control inputs are optically isolated from the power side, so no worries about what connects to them

Let me know if you have questions or comments.

Brew on

 

[cachecruiser]

BigDog007,

Here is the link to the switches.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/S821/360-2096-ND/1007153

P-J

Hi PJ and everyone, thanks for all the great info. I have been looking at all the wiring diagrams and have a quick question. I am going to use the Auberin-wiring1-SYL-2352-5500w with the switch to go between the HLT and the BK. I am thinking of using the SY2352 PID for the HLT tank but would like to use the http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=444 for the boil. I hate to ask, but is there anyway if you have time to do a drawing for this? Thanks again, if if you are two busy I will try and figure it out myself.
Thanks Again.

 

[MightyParched]

Forgive me if I missed it after searching thru the 67 pages of information but I am not finding exactly what I am building - which I find hard to believe. I must be getting old Could someone point out where I could find one of P-J's amazing diagrams for this build: (2) 120v boil coils (BK/HLT), (2) chugger pumps, (1) RIMS tube with 120v element, 2 PID (RIMS/HLT), and an Estop.

Also started looking at the brewtroller setup and curious if there would need to be any major upgrades if I were to add this in later when they get back into production? Appreciate your help!

 

[doug293cz]

Forgive me if I missed it after searching thru the 67 pages of information but I am not finding exactly what I am building - which I find hard to believe. I must be getting old Could someone point out where I could find one of P-J's amazing diagrams for this build: (2) 120v boil coils (BK/HLT), (2) chugger pumps, (1) RIMS tube with 120v element, 2 PID (RIMS/HLT), and an Estop.

Also started looking at the brewtroller setup and curious if there would need to be any major upgrades if I were to add this in later when they get back into production? Appreciate your help!

How many watts are each of the heaters, and will you be bringing 240V or 120V into the panel? Will you feed the panel with a single circuit, or multiple circuits? What combinations of the three heaters do you want to be able to run simultaneously?

Brew on

 

[MightyParched]

I do believe the 120v boil coils are 2250w each and I would be running them separately. The rims element I am currently using is 1500 or 1600w. I will be running that and the 1 boil coil in the HLT at the same time. As there is a strong possibility I will be moving in the next few months I am not sure on the status of single or multiple circuits but all of the basement's we have looked at will allow me water and a 240 outlet for power. I am no electrician so I am not sure about single or multiple circuits. Right now in my current rental I have to use multiple circuits for sure but hoping that changes soon! Appreciate your help.

 

[Namako]

I think you've got the idea. I put together a little schematic for the power input switching that should do what you want to do (if anyone sees any issues, please let me know.)

• Neither of the 240V neutrals make any connections inside the control box
• The neutral for the RIMS heater connects only to the RIMS heater, and nothing else
• A common neutral is used for all pumps and control circuits
• The RIMS power switch must be rated for the full RIMS current, or else replaced by another contactor + switch
• The Main Power switch and EPO can be low current
• The EPO switch must latch in position when pressed
• The SSR control inputs are optically isolated from the power side, so no worries about what connects to them

Let me know if you have questions or comments.

Brew on

doug293cz,

Sorry I went dark until now - but it's SUNDAY now!!

The wire diagram looks great! I like the use of one DPDT Contactor taking care of the two 120V circuits - in my head, I was going to keep everything isolated, but I guess there's no reason to do so at the contactor.

I'm contemplating how to modify it to allow for the EPO to cut power to all four circuits simultaneously. Would putting it on Neutral, before the branch to each of the three contactors (bottom left in the diagram), work?

Thanks again for the effort - I am a visual person, so I keep a stock of crayons around the house all the time!!

 

[doug293cz]

doug293cz,

Sorry I went dark until now - but it's SUNDAY now!!

The wire diagram looks great! I like the use of one DPDT Contactor taking care of the two 120V circuits - in my head, I was going to keep everything isolated, but I guess there's no reason to do so at the contactor.

I'm contemplating how to modify it to allow for the EPO to cut power to all four circuits simultaneously. Would putting it on Neutral, before the branch to each of the three contactors (bottom left in the diagram), work?

Thanks again for the effort - I am a visual person, so I keep a stock of crayons around the house all the time!!

The EPO does cut power to all circuits at the contactors simultaneously. The coils of the 240V contactors are powered thru the 120V contactor, so that when the EPO opens the 120V contactor, the 240V contactors also open.

Also, you want to keep the neutrals from each circuit isolated from the neutrals from all the other circuits, or you will have problems with GFCI's tripping. Additionally, power switches should always interrupt the hot line, not the neutral.

I gave up crayons (and pencils) for electrons a long time ago. They erase a lot easier, and the lines are straighter

Brew on

 

[Namako]

Ah ha!! I wasn't following the path all the way through, just looking at the one coil controlling the two separtate 120V circuits.

I also like not having to have a stack of four contacts on the power switch, which was my original thought.

Thanks for the GREAT ideas!!!

 

[Derp]

I just spent several hours reading through this massive and informative thread. Hats off to P-J and the rest for all of the great work.

I haven't found a diagram that exactly matches what I'd like to build, so I'll appreciate any help that anyone can offer.

I'm converting a 3-keggle, 2-pump system from propane to electric. My neighbor used to work as an electrician, so he's going to wire a 240v 50a outlet in my garage. I'd like to use a 240v 5500w heat stick that I'll switch between the HLT and the BK, so that's one PID. I'll keep the temperature probe connected to the HLT and when I move the heat stick to the BK I'll just use the PID on manual.

The biggest difference from the existing diagrams that I've seen is that I'd like to use a 120v 1500w element in the RIMS tube. Existing drawings show 240v RIMS elements, but I'd like to stick with the 120v element that brewhardware.com sells because it's all stainless and won't rust. I'd use a second PID for the RIMS.

I guess I could use the existing designs for a single element 240v and a single element 120v and build separate controllers for the HLT/MLT and RIMS devices, but that seems like a waste of space and money.

Any suggestions?

 

[CulturalNonsense]

I have read these threads so many times, my head is spinning! Thank you so much to everyone for your knowledge, and esp PJ for the diagrams!

I plan on using the diagram below. However, want to ask a question first. Do i need both switches (one for the Element and one for the PID)?

If i can remove the one for the pid, do I still need the fuse on that wire going into the PID if i remove the switch?

 

[doug293cz]

You could connect the PID pin 10 to the output side of switch 1. You should probably put the 1 amp fast blow fuse in that circuit branch.

Brew on

 

[SHvanBommel]

Hello All, I too have read this entire thread without luck. I'm wiring a 2200W 120V element, a 5500W 240V element, two pumps, and two pids. Do I just use the 5500W 2 Pump 2 PID setup and knock one of the hot legs off? Also, why contactor to SSR? Why not put on switch on the 8V or whatever side of the SSR?

 

[jeffmeh]

Also, why contactor to SSR? Why not put on switch on the 8V or whatever side of the SSR?

Because SSRs routinely fail closed (on), and in that case the switching input on the SSR is irrelevant. The switched contactor assures you that off means off.

 

[mainiac]

Ok, I've tried to read through everything here but still have a stupid electrical question . . .
Since the resistors in front of the e-stop are wired in series, couldn't I just use a single 2k/2w resistor?

 

[P-J]

Ok, I've tried to read through everything here but still have a stupid electrical question . . .
Since the resistors in front of the e-stop are wired in series, couldn't I just use a single 2k/2w resistor?

No stupid question.. If you can get a 2k/2w resistor you are in business. No problem at all.

P-J

 

[flyfshrmn98]

P-J or any others, I have looked through most of the thread and haven't been able to find what I need. I am looking for a diagram for a single 4500 or 5500 w element with single PID as well as timer, 1 or 2 pumps with E-stop and key or regular switch main power on. Thanks

 

[BrunDog]

I commend P-J for the efforts of making so many schematics. However, without disrespect to him, in my opinon, several of these diagrams are dangerous. I have not read this whole thread, but in researching schematics for my own system I am building, I came across a few here that I feel should not be built - for example the "30A 5500W 2 Element 2 Pump" on the first page. This system shows 2 5500W elements that can be powered simultaneously (drawing 52A), fed by a 30A circuit.

I would also caution anyone who uses the E-stop to cut power to the system by purposely faulting the GFI breaker - I do not think this is a sound method. Again, this is my opinion.

-BD

 

[thekraken]

I commend P-J for the efforts of making so many schematics. However, without disrespect to him, in my opinon, several of these diagrams are dangerous. I have not read this whole thread, but in researching schematics for my own system I am building, I came across a few here that I feel should not be built - for example the "30A 5500W 2 Element 2 Pump" on the first page. This system shows 2 5500W elements that can be powered simultaneously (drawing 52A), fed by a 30A circuit.

I would also caution anyone who uses the E-stop to cut power to the system by purposely faulting the GFI breaker - I do not think this is a sound method. Again, this is my opinion.

-BD

In the drawing you'r referring to it looks like switch 7 is a selector switch, only allowing power to one element at a time.

 

[P-J]

thekraken,

You have it exactly right.

P-J

 

[Rivenin]

Just wanted to say thanks, again! i followed the dual 120v wiring diagram before. But alas, as i'm in a new house and no easy access to 2 120v outlets.
I wired up the 30a BIAB version (modified the diagram just a bit for the basic switches i had)

Started out with my desk looking like this (did it all during my lunch break)

finished with this (the jumpers are missing for ground and neutral) but this is how it looks.

my garage has the power saver "slowly get brighter bulbs" so it's a dark shot, but you get the idea (P.S. the kettle still has one of the old 1500w elements to plug it for right now while i wait to order a plug)

boiled 5 gallons of water VERY quickly too...

however, the LED i want to come on only when the element is firing. i put it on the contactor on the red wire, but thats still just making the LED come on always when the switch has power. It worked fine on my last setup WITHOUT the contactor - so i think i'm going to put it on the "2" of the SSR and see if that works? unless anyone else has any ideas?

 

[thekraken]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like when you switch on the contactor your unintentionally getting 120v from line 1 through your element and LED.

Using a 240v LED you could try wiring it up like the 5500 2 Element 30a EStop PID diagram.

 

[doug293cz]

however, the LED i want to come on only when the element is firing. i put it on the contactor on the red wire, but thats still just making the LED come on always when the switch has power. It worked fine on my last setup WITHOUT the contactor - so i think i'm going to put it on the "2" of the SSR and see if that works? unless anyone else has any ideas?

Moving the hot connection of the LED to the other side of the contactor will just make things worse. When the contactor is closed, and the SSR not firing, the current path thru the LED still goes from line 1 thru the element, thru the LED, back to neutral. When the contactor is open, the LED will light up due to leakage current thru the SSR (there are threads that discuss this around here somewhere.) EDIT: found the thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=523055

The solution to the problem is to put a 240V LED across the hots on the element plug. Even in this case, if the contactor is closed, the SSR is not firing, and the element unplugged, the LED still comes on due to leakage current thru the SSR. This can be fixed with an appropriate value resistor (something like 7.5K ohms, 10 W) in parallel with the LED.

Brew on

 

[BrunDog]

In the drawing you'r referring to it looks like switch 7 is a selector switch, only allowing power to one element at a time.

Oops... I overlooked switch 7 in that schematic which determines the element that powered - my apologies. However, for schematic "50a 5500 2 Element 4 outlet BCS 460" and others similar, there is no such switch, and both elements can be powered via manual or automatic control simultaneously. Its not an overamp environment like I incorrectly quoted above, but you should never use all 50+ amps of a 50 amp circuit. Nor should 2000W be drawn from a standard 15A 120VAC outlet. Two 5500W elements and two pumps pretty much puts you at 50A.

Schematic "120v 2000 2 Element 2 pump single PID" also suggests that two plugs be wired and possibly connected to one outlet. 4000W @ 120V is 33A - this could be very dangerous. Even if two outlets were used, It would be highly improbable two 15A 120V outlets are near each other and on opposite legs. They would likely be chained and wired with 14Ga wire. It would take an experienced engineer/electrician to fish this out.

I will not go into the incorrect application of the E-stop as it sounds like others have commented on this, but I do recommend anyone looking to build a panel does their homework.

Again, not a personal knock - my hats off to anyone who takes the time to make the community better. We just need to be safe with this type of electricity.

-BD

 

[Rivenin]

Moving the hot connection of the LED to the other side of the contactor will just make things worse. When the contactor is closed, and the SSR not firing, the current path thru the LED still goes from line 1 thru the element, thru the LED, back to neutral. When the contactor is open, the LED will light up due to leakage current thru the SSR (there are threads that discuss this around here somewhere.) EDIT: found the thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=523055

The solution to the problem is to put a 240V LED across the hots on the element plug. Even in this case, if the contactor is closed, the SSR is not firing, and the element unplugged, the LED still comes on due to leakage current thru the SSR. This can be fixed with an appropriate value resistor (something like 7.5K ohms, 10 W) in parallel with the LED.

Brew on

Perfect! thanks my good man! thats just the answer i was looking for

 

[thekraken]

Oops... I overlooked switch 7 in that schematic which determines the element that powered - my apologies. However, for schematic "50a 5500 2 Element 4 outlet BCS 460" and others similar, there is no such switch, and both elements can be powered via manual or automatic control simultaneously. Its not an overamp environment like I incorrectly quoted above, but you should never use all 50+ amps of a 50 amp circuit. Nor should 2000W be drawn from a standard 15A 120VAC outlet. Two 5500W elements and two pumps pretty much puts you at 50A.

Realize that the text titles given to each schematic are what the OP thought the schematic represented. In this drawing it looks like OP made a typo, 5500W should have been 5000W per P-J's drawing (P-J didn't start this thread). 2x5000W elements = 42 amps + room for a few pumps.

Schematic "120v 2000 2 Element 2 pump single PID" also suggests that two plugs be wired and possibly connected to one outlet. 4000W @ 120V is 33A - this could be very dangerous. Even if two outlets were used, It would be highly improbable two 15A 120V outlets are near each other and on opposite legs. They would likely be chained and wired with 14Ga wire. It would take an experienced engineer/electrician to fish this out.

The drawing suggests to me that the plugs should be on different circuits. Maybe some of the schems should have some clarifications. Again, realize that these drawings were all gathered here from other places and are kind of out of context.

I do recommend anyone looking to build a panel does their homework.

+1000

(edit) I'm not trying to argue with you our anything, your warnings/concerns are definitely valid. People do need to know what the h*** they are doing and fully understand their drawings before attempting anything.

 

[P-J]

Are you all really happy that I am no longer making diagrams???

It is all of this type of BS over time that convinces me to quit doing them and supporting this forum..

Sorry all.

P-J

 

[decoleur]

Are you all really happy that I am no longer making diagrams???

It is all of this type of BS over time that convinces me to quit doing them and supporting this forum..

Sorry all.

P-J

Nope, you captured dreams on the screen and launched a thousand more.

I am sorry if you have stopped but not that you did any to begin with.

Thanks for your contributions, I have them wall papering my office as I try to decide which direction I will go.

 

[BigDog007]

There are a thousand ways to do the same thing. P-J shared his way and people often feel the need to display their superior intelligence by outlining why it's the wrong way for them.

I built my panel using one of P-J's drawings and am very happy with the results. It's definitely safe enough for me.

 

[BrunDog]

Are you all really happy that I am no longer making diagrams???

It is all of this type of BS over time that convinces me to quit doing them and supporting this forum..

Sorry all.

P-J

Well, I suppose you can take your ball and go home if you want, but as I said, this was not a personal knock and I, among many others, appreciate your contributions.

...feel the need to display their superior intelligence...

Well, that is absolutely not my mission, believe it or not. I expressed concern over information here that may be accepted as gospel, that *may* just not be consistent with safe application according to publications by authorities. YMMV and caveat emptor.

-BD

 

[Loodachris]

Are you all really happy that I am no longer making diagrams???

It is all of this type of BS over time that convinces me to quit doing them and supporting this forum..

Sorry all.

P-J

It was because of your diagram for my rims system and questions answered that I can brew on my full 30A rims system. There would be no way I could of done it without you unless I bought a prebuilt kit and spent over a grand. Love my system and building it and the operation of the panel. Thanks for your support PJ