Limiting oxidation: effect of purging headspace O2 in a bottle conditioned IPA

[Taket_al_Tauro]

My personal feelings are that oxidation is a big problem for bottle conditioned hoppy beers when using standard bottling practices, but I have not been convinced it is a huge issue for many other styles.

My personal feelings as well.
OK, if one leaves a large headspace I could see this being a problem for other styles too. But with the smallish headspace I am using these days, I could not notice any benefits of those specific extra measures in styles other than the hoppy ones.
Then it probably also depends on one's process before the bottling step. That may be the reason why some people report benefits also for non-hoppy styles, while others do not.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I am aware of #329 but have not read it carefully.

Then it probably also depends on one's process before the bottling step. That may be the reason why some people report benefits also for non-hoppy styles, while others do not.

A similar idea was mentioned here (link); @brewbama 's recipe notes (link to recipe in AHA forums) appear to be an excellent resource for approachable techniques to reducing oxygen during brewing.

Elsewhere (link to /r/homebrewing topic), it is mentioned that The New IPA has a chapter on the impact of process and ingredients on beer shelf life. The reply does includes 'cliff notes', but for those willing to go deeper, the book has many references to scientific papers.

 

[Miraculix]

Hi all,

I've been brewing for a few years now and lurking here nearly as long. I've bottle conditioned everything I've brewed, and when I decided to get serious about post-packaging oxidation a year-or-so ago this thread was my best resource. I don't have the photographic evidence that some of you have gathered, but seeing the thread revived makes me feel compelled to make an account and share the lessons I've gleaned.

I'll spare you the coming essay if you don't want to read it. I hooked a paintball CO2 tank to a mini regulator (via an adapter), the regulator to a thumb valve from a basic air compressor, and that valve to an 'aeration' wand. The wand screws into the thumb valve so it's easy to sanitize by removing and boiling in a second pan along side the priming sugar. When bottling, I first empty the bottling bucket, filling all bottles to a normal head space and laying an uncrimped cap on top. Then just before capping the whole lot, I dip the CO2 'aeration' wand into the neck of each bottle and let the CO2 flow at VERY low pressure for just a few seconds. This creates a fine foam of CO2-filled bubbles filling the entire headspace for 10-20 seconds before it begins to collapse, giving me time to lay and crimp the cap with effectively no headspace at all. This method has been INCREDIBLY effective for me and meshes in easily enough with my normal bottling routine that I do it for every batch, not just the hoppy ones.

So onto the long version:

I, independently through trial and error, arrived at the same conclusions as all of you in this thread: Yeast are very effective at neutralizing oxygen, but only dissolved oxygen and only while they are actively fermenting sugars.

This being the case, any oxygen introduced by racking to an open bottling bucket and stirring to distribute the priming solution (as I do) just contributes to DISSOLVED oxygen. Dissolved oxygen which the yeast, woken up by the fresh boost of sugar, scavenge before it can do any real harm. The actual enemy to fresh-tasting bottle conditioned beer is the oxygen trapped in the headspace that dissolves into the beer after the yeast are finished carbonating. Again, I think I'm preaching to the choir. My only hot take here is that any efforts to reduce dissolved oxygen beyond normal homebrew procedures (like bottling straight from the fermentor with sugar drops/etc or pre-purging empty bottles) are barking up the wrong tree.

So, the issue is: how best to purge the oxygen from the bottle's headspace?

The professionals "Cap on Foam" to great success. The principle is that CO2 escaping solution is naturally trapped in bubbles by a beer's head. This pure-CO2 foam fills all of the dead space in the can/bottle/keg, leaving no room for any oxygen-laden atmospheric air, then the package is sealed up for good. The difference is that they're packaging fully carbonated beer. Without force carbonating, there is just not enough CO2 in solution to form much of any head.

I thought to myself: fundamentally, there can't be much difference between a bubble of CO2 breaking out of solution versus the very smallest CO2 bubble some separate tank can make. Well, there are plenty of aeration stones that can produce an army of tiny bubbles but sanitation becomes a major concern if I plan to dip it into every single bottle of nearly-finished beer. Sure, there are stainless steel 'sintered stones' that can easily be boiled, but the cost of this theoretical project is really starting to add up. Not to mention, avoiding pressure tanks and regulators was a minor point of pride that (not really) justifies the extra effort I spend bottling versus kegging.
So I sat on the idea for a year or two, honing what this system would actually look like until I was fed up enough with cardboardy beer to bite the bullet and make this prototype.

A full 5-pound CO2 tank seemed excessive and disposable cartridges seemed wasteful, so I settled on a 20oz paintball tank for my CO2 source (I got 10 batches from the first fill, my LHBS charges $5 to refill). You definitely will need a mini regulator like this one to keep the pressure at just a couple PSI and an adapter to mate it to the paintball tank. For the aeration wand, I went with Anvil's (because I liked it's narrow diameter, plus the seamless, all-stainless construction; I did have to hack saw it down to a more manageable length though) but there are definitely cheaper alternatives. So that I don't have to adjust the mini regulator on to just the right pressure and then off again for every bottle, a valve in between is necessary. A thumb valve for an air compressor blow gun is cheap and adaptable. Some vinyl tubing, plumbing adapters, and a few John Guest push-to-fit connectors later, and I had a useable rig.

I'm away from all of my homebrew kit at the moment or I'd take some pictures. I'm planning on bottling a brown ale this weekend and can come back with photos if anyone's curious enough, but I've attached a Microsoft paint diagram in the mean time.

This set up has been unbelievably effective for the last 13-ish batches. Even IPA's stored warm for months are fresh and bright to the last bottle. I'm planning a true hazy IPA for my next brew, so that will be a tough test. As an added bonus, having an independent CO2 tank also gives me the ability to purge the headspace of fermentors after a dry hop or any other time I break its seal.

The whole purging process only adds maybe 15-20 minutes to my usual bottling routine. I boil the steel aeration wand while I prepare the priming sugar, the rig only takes a couple minutes to build with the push-to-fit adapters then calibrate the pressure, and it only takes ~5 seconds to fill the neck of each bottle with foam. To clean the wand, I put a short length of tubing over the threads that screw into the thumb valve (same diameter as a standard bottling wand's tubing) and push PBW through a vinator pump through the wand; pump with fresh water to rinse then dry. It's a small enough effort that I do it for every single batch I brew these days.

I'd estimate that my shelf life has tripled, at least. Truly dramatic. To give credit to others in this thread, I did see more or less the same effect when I tried filling bottles to the very brim with beer. But between the risk of bombs (not something I experienced but still scary), the lack of hiss, and the ~3 seconds before the bottles foamed over, I found that method unsatisfying and more trouble than it was worth. This cap-on-foam rig I came up with is expensive, admittedly. But it is also effective, quick, easy to use, and the fill height after the foam collapses remains 'normal.'

Almost everyone in my local brew club kegs, so other than my own taste buds you dorks are the only ones that will really appreciate all of this effort. Any thoughts or criticism appreciated.

Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew
Laz

This is genius.

 

[Miraculix]

My personal feelings as well.
OK, if one leaves a large headspace I could see this being a problem for other styles too. But with the smallish headspace I am using these days, I could not notice any benefits of those specific extra measures in styles other than the hoppy ones.
Then it probably also depends on one's process before the bottling step. That may be the reason why some people report benefits also for non-hoppy styles, while others do not.

Every beer suffers when oxygen is present after the yeast stopped metabolizing actively. Malt compounds can also oxidize and cause loss of flavour or off flavours. It is not limited to hop compounds. It's just that some hop compounds are much quicker oxidised and/or the effect is detectable much quicker. But at the end, all beer suffer when in contact with oxygen.

 

[VikeMan]

Every beer suffers when oxygen is present after the yeast stopped metabolizing actively. Malt compounds can also oxidize and cause loss of flavour or off flavours. It is not limited to hop compounds. It's just that some hop compounds are much quicker oxidised and/or the effect is detectable much quicker. But at the end, all beer suffer when in contact with oxygen.

Very true. But I'd say it a little differently... every beer changes when oxidized. Some of the changes might be considered beneficial, depending on preferences and style. In a big stout, for example, some will like the caramelly/fruity/sherry flavors that can result. Also, oxygen can oxidize otherwise objectionable sulfur compounds. (How many times have people with young, sulfury beers been told to wait it out, because the sufur will "age out?" IOW, wait for oxidation.)

 

[Miraculix]

Very true. But I'd say it a little differently... every beer changes when oxidized. Some of the changes might be considered beneficial, depending on preferences and style. In a big stout, for example, some will like the caramelly/fruity/sherry flavors that can result. Also, oxygen can oxidize otherwise objectionable sulfur compounds. (How many times have people with young, sulfury beers been told to wait it out, because the sufur will "age out?" IOW, wait for oxidation.)

Yes, that's also true indeed.

 

[yard_bird]

I've been following this thread all week trying to keep up with you guys, great work!

I plan on using the high fill technique but am thinking about experimenting with potassium metabisulfite and ascorbic. I saw the ascorbic concentration was about 0.6gr/gallon, but does anyone know the concentration required for potassium metabisulfite (either alone or in conjunction with ascorbic)? I've seen dosing of maybe 6-7ppm for kegging but not sure if that level will effect sacchromyces cerivisae (I know it's supposed to inhibit wild yeast and bacteria) used in bottle conditioning.

As far as dosing sugar per bottle: has anyone found a good weight to use for say standard American ale carbonation? I personally am hesitant to try this method since I feel like the risk of over/under carbing is higher than when bulk dosing.

I appreciate all the hard work that's been put in so far. I'll be brewing a few different styles in the coming weeks (all bottle conditioned) and will do my best to post my findings here.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

As far as dosing sugar per bottle: has anyone found a good weight to use for say standard American ale carbonation? I personally am hesitant to try this method since I feel like the risk of over/under carbing is higher than when bulk dosing.

For a normal fill and dosing individual bottles using dry sugar, I initially used a priming sugar calculator. The volume of beer is 'one bottle'. Assuming a 7 oz bottle, 0.055 gal (7 / 128). Given the volume of beer, one can calculate the amount of sugar. Using this technique with a normal bottle fill and an appropriate scale, I do not see over/under carbonation. YMMV.

Another approach would be to make a slurry and dose individual bottles with medicine dropper (that has a scale). I haven't used this technique, but I can see where it would yield good results. Again, YMMV.

eta: one could also calculate the amount of sugar needed for 5 gal of beer then divide by the number of 7 oz bottles that are in 5 gal of beer.

---

eta (about a week later): adding a link related to the topic, but not to my reply.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/bottling-purging-headspace-bottles-bucket.724149/

 

[Miraculix]

For a normal fill and dosing individual bottles using dry sugar, I initially used a priming sugar calculator. The volume of beer is 'one bottle'. Assuming a 7 oz bottle, 0.055 gal (7 / 128). Given the volume of beer, one can calculate the amount of sugar. Using this technique with a normal bottle fill and an appropriate scale, I do not see over/under carbonation. YMMV.

Another approach would be to make a slurry and dose individual bottles with medicine dropper (that has a scale). I haven't used this technique, but I can see where it would yield good results. Again, YMMV.

eta: one could also calculate the amount of sugar needed for 5 gal of beer then divide by the number of 7 oz bottles that are in 5 gal of beer.

I have a small spoon,I filled that one with sugar, weighted the amount, had a bit too much on it, dropped something, weighted again, remembered how the appropriate amount looked on the spoon, filled each bottle by eye with that spoon, fine with me since dozens of batches.

 

[Langerz]

Hi all,

I've been brewing for a few years now and lurking here nearly as long. I've bottle conditioned everything I've brewed, and when I decided to get serious about post-packaging oxidation a year-or-so ago this thread was my best resource. I don't have the photographic evidence that some of you have gathered, but seeing the thread revived makes me feel compelled to make an account and share the lessons I've gleaned.

I'll spare you the coming essay if you don't want to read it. I hooked a paintball CO2 tank to a mini regulator (via an adapter), the regulator to a thumb valve from a basic air compressor, and that valve to an 'aeration' wand. The wand screws into the thumb valve so it's easy to sanitize by removing and boiling in a second pan along side the priming sugar. When bottling, I first empty the bottling bucket, filling all bottles to a normal head space and laying an uncrimped cap on top. Then just before capping the whole lot, I dip the CO2 'aeration' wand into the neck of each bottle and let the CO2 flow at VERY low pressure for just a few seconds. This creates a fine foam of CO2-filled bubbles filling the entire headspace for 10-20 seconds before it begins to collapse, giving me time to lay and crimp the cap with effectively no headspace at all. This method has been INCREDIBLY effective for me and meshes in easily enough with my normal bottling routine that I do it for every batch, not just the hoppy ones.

So onto the long version:

I, independently through trial and error, arrived at the same conclusions as all of you in this thread: Yeast are very effective at neutralizing oxygen, but only dissolved oxygen and only while they are actively fermenting sugars.

This being the case, any oxygen introduced by racking to an open bottling bucket and stirring to distribute the priming solution (as I do) just contributes to DISSOLVED oxygen. Dissolved oxygen which the yeast, woken up by the fresh boost of sugar, scavenge before it can do any real harm. The actual enemy to fresh-tasting bottle conditioned beer is the oxygen trapped in the headspace that dissolves into the beer after the yeast are finished carbonating. Again, I think I'm preaching to the choir. My only hot take here is that any efforts to reduce dissolved oxygen beyond normal homebrew procedures (like bottling straight from the fermentor with sugar drops/etc or pre-purging empty bottles) are barking up the wrong tree.

So, the issue is: how best to purge the oxygen from the bottle's headspace?

The professionals "Cap on Foam" to great success. The principle is that CO2 escaping solution is naturally trapped in bubbles by a beer's head. This pure-CO2 foam fills all of the dead space in the can/bottle/keg, leaving no room for any oxygen-laden atmospheric air, then the package is sealed up for good. The difference is that they're packaging fully carbonated beer. Without force carbonating, there is just not enough CO2 in solution to form much of any head.

I thought to myself: fundamentally, there can't be much difference between a bubble of CO2 breaking out of solution versus the very smallest CO2 bubble some separate tank can make. Well, there are plenty of aeration stones that can produce an army of tiny bubbles but sanitation becomes a major concern if I plan to dip it into every single bottle of nearly-finished beer. Sure, there are stainless steel 'sintered stones' that can easily be boiled, but the cost of this theoretical project is really starting to add up. Not to mention, avoiding pressure tanks and regulators was a minor point of pride that (not really) justifies the extra effort I spend bottling versus kegging.
So I sat on the idea for a year or two, honing what this system would actually look like until I was fed up enough with cardboardy beer to bite the bullet and make this prototype.

A full 5-pound CO2 tank seemed excessive and disposable cartridges seemed wasteful, so I settled on a 20oz paintball tank for my CO2 source (I got 10 batches from the first fill, my LHBS charges $5 to refill). You definitely will need a mini regulator like this one to keep the pressure at just a couple PSI and an adapter to mate it to the paintball tank. For the aeration wand, I went with Anvil's (because I liked it's narrow diameter, plus the seamless, all-stainless construction; I did have to hack saw it down to a more manageable length though) but there are definitely cheaper alternatives. So that I don't have to adjust the mini regulator on to just the right pressure and then off again for every bottle, a valve in between is necessary. A thumb valve for an air compressor blow gun is cheap and adaptable. Some vinyl tubing, plumbing adapters, and a few John Guest push-to-fit connectors later, and I had a useable rig.

I'm away from all of my homebrew kit at the moment or I'd take some pictures. I'm planning on bottling a brown ale this weekend and can come back with photos if anyone's curious enough, but I've attached a Microsoft paint diagram in the mean time.

This set up has been unbelievably effective for the last 13-ish batches. Even IPA's stored warm for months are fresh and bright to the last bottle. I'm planning a true hazy IPA for my next brew, so that will be a tough test. As an added bonus, having an independent CO2 tank also gives me the ability to purge the headspace of fermentors after a dry hop or any other time I break its seal.

The whole purging process only adds maybe 15-20 minutes to my usual bottling routine. I boil the steel aeration wand while I prepare the priming sugar, the rig only takes a couple minutes to build with the push-to-fit adapters then calibrate the pressure, and it only takes ~5 seconds to fill the neck of each bottle with foam. To clean the wand, I put a short length of tubing over the threads that screw into the thumb valve (same diameter as a standard bottling wand's tubing) and push PBW through a vinator pump through the wand; pump with fresh water to rinse then dry. It's a small enough effort that I do it for every single batch I brew these days.

I'd estimate that my shelf life has tripled, at least. Truly dramatic. To give credit to others in this thread, I did see more or less the same effect when I tried filling bottles to the very brim with beer. But between the risk of bombs (not something I experienced but still scary), the lack of hiss, and the ~3 seconds before the bottles foamed over, I found that method unsatisfying and more trouble than it was worth. This cap-on-foam rig I came up with is expensive, admittedly. But it is also effective, quick, easy to use, and the fill height after the foam collapses remains 'normal.'

Almost everyone in my local brew club kegs, so other than my own taste buds you dorks are the only ones that will really appreciate all of this effort. Any thoughts or criticism appreciated.

Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew
Laz

I made an attempt at a similar set up and worked ok but one issues I wanted to compare notes with.

Rather than an aeration wand I used an aeration stone on a tube. I made a nice amount of foam on top of the beer. The challenge I had as I moved the stone out of the bottle the displaced volume cause the foam to be maybe 3/8" from the top of the bottle and I would assume that space filled in with o2. I tried getting the smallest sized stone possible, but it still seemed significant. What size is your stone and how much "air space" did you have about the foam?

 

[yard_bird]

Wanted to provide an update with my findings. I've bottled an amber, kolsch and cream ale since implementing what I learned in this thread.

Amber: 0.6grams ascorbic/gal + 6mg/gal potassium metabisulfite. Flavor stayed pretty consistent over time (I guess additional time will tell more). Interestingly, this beer had a pellicle on it when it came to bottling. Some minor yeasty spiciness was present but not enough to warrant draining all of it. I bottled some. I have not noticed any over carbonated bottles or increase in yeast character, perhaps the KMS nipped this in the bud?

Kolsch: 0.6g aa/gal + 8mg/gal KMS. Color stayed, fresh grain character stayed (compared to the same recipe I brewed about two months prior). However I noticed a sulfur aroma at this KMS dosage in some bottles. I assume this is due to improper mixing but I will back this down to 6mg/gal in future batches. Luckily this blows off after about a minute in the glass/as the beer warms. The cream ale I brewed had this same dosage (unfortunately) but likewise this blows off before too long. I assume this won't age out in the bottle but if I find it does I'll try to report back here.

Various bottles have had low head space and typical headspace (I use a bottle wand). Haven't noticed a big difference between those two methods but again, additional time is likely required.

Thanks all for the hard work.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Amber: 0.6grams ascorbic/gal + 6mg/gal potassium metabisulfite.

I just wanted to check your rates. That is the rate I have used for Ascorbic Acid. 6 mg (0.006 g) per gallon for KMBS seems low. I have tried dosing at 0.035 g/gal and that seemed to work fine.

I came across this calculator that says to get to 10 ppm of SO2 (is that the target? or 10 ppm of SMB?) you need to add 0.07g of KMBS. Any input if this calculator is useful for beer or is accurate?
https://www.winebusiness.com/calculator/winemaking/calc/15/

 

[yard_bird]

I just wanted to check your rates. That is the rate I have used for Ascorbic Acid. 6 mg (0.006 g) per gallon for KMBS seems low. I have tried dosing at 0.035 g/gal and that seemed to work fine.

I came across this calculator that says to get to 10 ppm of SO2 (is that the target? or 10 ppm of SMB?) you need to add 0.07g of KMBS. Any input if this calculator is useful for beer or is accurate?
https://www.winebusiness.com/calculator/winemaking/calc/15/

Hmm interesting. I'm wondering then if my priming get's improperly mixed. So far the bottles seem equally carbonated, so I'm wondering if I did a bad job at mixing the KMS. I'll have to check out that calculator: I felt lie I exhausted my search engine a few weeks ago while researching but couldn't find anything on what Sacc could survive in terms of SO2. Obviously higher than what other microbes can, but wanted to make sure that these beers still carbonated.

Also curious as to when the SO2 is added to wine? At bottling or 24 hrs beforehand? That could possibly allow time for the sulfur aroma to dissipate.


EDIT: you are correct Cascade: my [SO2] is 6mg/liter and 8mg/liter respectively. Not per gallon. This comes to roughly 23mg/gal and 31mg/gal which are closer to your doses. My guess is either sub-par mixing or maybe I'm just noticing it in my really pale/bare styles.

Good catch.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Curiosity question: has anyone read the section(s) related to bottle conditioning in the book The New IPA and tried the ideas/suggestion? If so, what was the outcome?

 

[Langerz]

Curiosity question: has anyone read the section(s) related to bottle conditioning in the book The New IPA and tried the ideas/suggestion? If so, what was the outcome?

I have the book but haven’t started it. There is discussion of the technique in the giant NEIPA thread though

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Thanks @Langerz. I'm aware of some giant NEIPA threads (plural) here at HomeBrewTalk (as well as quality topics in /r/homebrewing, AHA forums, ...).

My question is focused on the contents of the book. There appears to be a lot of quality content to "unpack" in a just couple of pages. Some of the content I haven't seen in forums. Rather than read 1000s of posts, I'm curious if anyone has read the book, tried the ideas, and noted improvements. The response can be as simple as "yes, the technique ___ worked" or no response at all.

So again: has anyone read the section(s) related to bottle conditioning in the book The New IPA and tried the ideas/suggestion? If so, what was the outcome?

 

[thiagoedwardo]

i have read it, and all this thread before bottling my first neipa. The book doesnt offer much to bottle conditioning specifically, it mostly tells you "dont do it"(lol) and to use new dry yeast to speed up the start of refermentation.
I mostly used the information from here, left almost no headspace, but i used one drop of liquid vitamin c in each bottle too, ended up with no oxidation so far (but i f*cked up the beer in other ways...)

 

[VikeMan]

I mostly used the information from here, left almost no headspace, but i used one drop of liquid vitamin c in each bottle too, ended up with no oxidation so far (but i f*cked up the beer in other ways...)

Every beer has oxidation, even beers made under the strictest LODO conditions. Happily, yours seems to be minor enough to not be objectionable at this stage.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Thanks @thiagoedwardo - I saw additional idea(s), just not all in one place.

Every beer has oxidation, even beers made under the strictest LODO conditions.

This is pretty well known. Going forward, what seem to be useful is this: understanding which techniques to use when brewing, packaging, and storing the beer to get it's desired shelf life.

As a home brewer I don't have the commercial brewer problem: how to produce a beer with a six month shelf life assuming adverse shipping and storing conditions. If I make a 2.5 gal batch for early summer enjoyment, it doesn't need to last more than about three months. (aside: overfilled bottles are a non-starter for me).

So again: has anyone read the section(s) related to bottle conditioning in the book The New IPA and tried the ideas/suggestion? If so, what was the outcome?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

So again: has anyone read the section(s) related to bottle conditioning in the book The New IPA and tried the ideas/suggestion? If so, what was the outcome?

What specific tips? Like @thiagoedwardo, all I see are:

• Consider moving to kegging instead of bottling
• Some inconclusive info on cap liners (they might strip out hop flavors? but maybe the bad ones?)
• Tips to add some dry yeast at bottling (2g per 5 gallons, rehydrated, CBC-1 mentioned)

I have not tried adding bottling yeast, but it seems like a solid idea. I did noticed in a split batch pale ale, the bottles with Lutra and Voss had less visual darkening than the bottles with US-05. I could see factors such as the type of yeast, the amount of yeast still in suspension, and the health of the yeast having an impact.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What specific tips?

I'm looking for anecdotal stories based on what people have actually done with ideas in the book (specific to bottle conditioning, not bottling from kegs, or kegging). Beyond that, and at the moment, I'm not eager to say much more.

I did noticed in a split batch pale ale, the bottles with Lutra and Voss had less visual darkening than the bottles with US-05.

Thanks!

 

[VikeMan]

Every beer has oxidation, even beers made under the strictest LODO conditions.

This is pretty well known.

I really wish it were, but from where I sit, it doesn't seem to be. My evidence is the hundreds (thousands?) of posts that say things like "I do 'X' (or...I don't do 'X') and my beers never have oxidation." I conclude that there are many people who believe that oxidation is binary, i.e. a beer has it or it doesn't. It might seem like a trivial distinction, but I don't think so, because it prevents thought/discussion about the additive nature of oxidation, the variable impact of varied levels of oxidation, and a logical (IMO) conclusion that every step in the brewing, packaging, and storage processes might bear examination.

So again: has anyone read the section(s) related to bottle conditioning in the book The New IPA and tried the ideas/suggestion? If so, what was the outcome?

I have the book, but don't recall any suggestions related to bottle conditioning (irt oxidation) other than the ones @CascadesBrewer mentioned. Do you mean those or something else? If there's someone out there who has tried the tips you mean, it might encourage them to speak up if they know for sure what you mean. Know what I mean?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@VikeMan : my question is (and will remain) open ended. I'm looking for anecdotal stories on things that people tried based on what they found in the book (related to bottle conditioning), not speculation on a list of ideas. Beyond that, I'm not eager to say much more.

 

[VikeMan]

@VikeMan : my question is (and will remain) open ended. I'm looking for anecdotal stories on things that people tried based on what they found in the book (related to bottle conditioning), not speculation on a list of ideas. Beyond that, I'm not eager to say much more.

Fair enough. My answer is that I haven't tried anything related to bottle conditioning irt oxidation suggested by the book, and that there wasn't anything new to try. Hopefully someone will be able to guess what you mean.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It's really pretty simple: if one tried an idea / suggestion from the book related to bottle conditioning, I'm interested in hearing about it

 

[MaxStout]

I have the book, and I have taken a highlighter pen to several points in Ch. 14 (Stability). First off, I have never brewed a hazy IPA, not sure if I will. But I think it's prudent for me to consider some of the factors mentioned, as those may help mitigate oxidation in other hop-forward varieties of beer.

I bottle all beers, and I have started adding small doses of ascorbic acid and sodium metabisulfite at bottling. Just enough meta to achieve around 10ppm sulfite. Anecdotally, I have found that the beers result in less noticeable oxidative off-flavors and longer shelf life. I have been doing the LODO mash additions for a few years, and that has helped; the packaging AA and SMB additions have further increased the benefit, based on my very subjective observations.

I was also intrigued by the book's recommendation to limit the amount of crystal malts (p205) due to the risk of oxidation of maillard compounds. Kind of moot to me, as I rarely use much of those anyway, but one more reason to limit crystal malts. Another factor I haven't tried yet, is shorter dry-hopping times at lower temps. I plan an IPA this spring and will try to adhere to that. And the book mentions the adverse effect caused by manganese, and that flaked oats have the highest potential of manganese (p208). Hop varieties can have differing amounts of manganese, as well.

I do try to minimize headspace when filling. I want to leave a little to allow for expansion, but I have been able to fill within about 1/2" of the top. I use a bottle wand connected to the spigot of the bottling bucket. The problem is the displacement of the wand. I fill the bottle to the rim, then when I withdraw the wand I'm left with 1-1/2" of headspace. What I do now is fill as usual with the wand, then as the level gets to the top, withdraw the wand so that only the tip is still submerged, tilt the bottle and use the side of the neck to actuate the spring-loaded end to carefully fill it some more without adding turbulence. It takes some practice.

There was a source (one that I'm not allowed to link to on this site) that suggested filling to within 1 cm of the top. I can get close to that.

From an O2 standpoint, bottling has its drawbacks. Kegging is not an option for me, so I try to make the best of the situation.

 

[VikeMan]

I have the book, and I have taken a highlighter pen to several points in Ch. 14 (Stability).

What, if anything, did that chapter have to say about oxygen mitigation specific to bottle conditioning?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@MaxStout : thanks for the response!

@VikeMan :

• yes, you are correct - the subject of this topic is "limiting oxygen".
• but please respect that my question was open ended and broader (not restricted to just "limiting oxygen"): "if one tried an idea / suggestion from the book related to bottle conditioning, I'm interested in hearing about it."

In the scope of the question I asked, @MaxStout offered a positive (and actionalble) answer.

Let's find ways to move the practice of bottling conditioning forward.

thanks!

 

[MaxStout]

What, if anything, did that chapter have to say about oxygen mitigation specific to bottle conditioning?

It didn't. Nor did it discuss those mitigation factors specific to kegging. It discussed mitigation factors in a general sense, without qualifying as to the type of packaging. Further in the chapter there is a brief discussion suggesting that switching from bottling to kegging is "[O]ne way to potentially increase the shelf life of hazy hoppy beers for homebrewers" (pp216-7). But that's an over-arching concept that does not necessarily negate the benefit of the previously-stated mitigation factors as they would apply to either packaging method.

 

[MaxStout]

I might add that, this being an advanced book devoted to hop-forward beers, I can assume that the author's concepts are being viewed through the lens of kegging. Most homebrewers serious about these types of beers are likely kegging their beers. Since I am not, and don't expect to change in the foreseeable future, I realize that I'm a bit behind the 8-ball in the area of oxygen mitigation. However, I am gleaning some ideas that may still enable me to get some benefits within those confines and help me make better beer.

I will say that The New IPA is an excellent book, from which any mid-level or advanced homebrewer would find something useful, regardless of what styles they brew. I have learned a great deal about hops from it and it's a good "next read" after Stan Hieronymus' For The Love of Hops.