Lid on or off for boil?

[Burgs]

I tried searching, but to be quite honest the search feature sucks... or my keywords are too generic?

When you guys boil, do you leave your lid on or off?

 

[Shooter]

Keep it off once the boil starts.

EDIT: You want to drive off stuff like DMS precursors.

 

[Burgs]

Well, I definitely kept it on for a lot of the time during my last batch... am I hosed?

When do I check for rotten egg smells? That's what you get from DMS, correct?

 

[oceanselv]

Keep it off once the boil starts.

EDIT: You want to drive off stuff like DMS precursors.

+1 on keeping the lid off to drive off the DMS.

 

[Shooter]

Well, I definitely kept it on for a lot of the time during my last batch... am I hosed?

When do I check for rotten egg smells? That's what you get from DMS, correct?

Not necessarily, what type of batch? Pilsener malt is worse than 2 row. That's why a lot of people do a 90 minute boil if using pilsener. Also, if you're using extract as the bulk of your fermentable, it's possible some of the precursors were driven off during the creation of the extract.

Also, if I'm remembering correctly, DMS produces a vegetal taste/smell, like corn I believe. However, I, thankfully, have no first hand experience with the stuff.

 

[earwig]

If a lot of the water dripped back into the pot from the lid there could be some off flavours but there will not always be a rotten egg smell. I made this mistake once and the batch still came out fine.

 

[Burgs]

The batch was Northern Brewer's Breakfast Stout extract kit.

The process last night was significantly smoother than my first solo brew... just gotta keep learning and tweaking, I guess.

 

[Shooter]

The batch was Northern Brewer's Breakfast Stout extract kit.

The process last night was significantly smoother than my first solo brew... just gotta keep learning and tweaking, I guess.

Well, I wouldn't worry too much at this point. In the future, it's probably a good idea to leave the lid off or at least partially off, but, my guess is, you'll be fine. Enjoy that stout! :rockin:

 

[Burgs]

Yup, thanks man! At the two week mark I'm gonna add some cacao nibs to it!

Excited to try this one.

 

[maida7]

The batch was Northern Brewer's Breakfast Stout extract kit.

The process last night was significantly smoother than my first solo brew... just gotta keep learning and tweaking, I guess.

DMS is not as big a problem with extract. Much of the DMS pre cursors were removed during the extract making process.

Also, DMS is much harder to detect in a dark beer like a stout. It's a major flaw in a light lager.

But for future use always keep the lid off when boiling.

 

[Burgs]

Thanks everyone!

 

[GAbrewer]

I vote for off. Back on after the boil once it cools below 160F or so. I can't remember where I read it, but I think you have to worry about bacteria once it drops below that temp.

 

[Burgs]

Ah, thanks for the 160 note GAbrewer. Back when I worked in food service, the "danger zone" for bacteria was 40-140, I believe?

I think what I'm gonna do is fill a spray bottle with sanitizer (for this and many other uses) and just spray the lid and shake it off a bit before it goes back on for the cooling phase.

 

[BendBrewer]

Hmmmm, I have been leaving mine on but only about 3/4 of the way. There is plenty of area exposed to allow for steam to release.

Is it being suggested to not have any lid covering any of the pot?

 

[EvilGnome6]

Don't commercial breweries have big chimneys on their kettles? I would image they get quite a bit of condensation dripping back down. How do they deal with that or is it really that big of an issue?

 

[maida7]

Don't commercial breweries have big chimneys on their kettles? I would image they get quite a bit of condensation dripping back down. How do they deal with that or is it really that big of an issue?

They have a collection port and drain on the chimney. All the condensation ends up in a bucket. I've heard that bucket water is very nasty.

 

[BendBrewer]

How does pure H2O hurt your brew during the boiling process?

Assuming that what it is 'dripping' from is clean?

 

[Frodo]

Hmmmm, I have been leaving mine on but only about 3/4 of the way. There is plenty of area exposed to allow for steam to release.

Is it being suggested to not have any lid covering any of the pot?

If you have condensation on the lid dripping into the wort, then yes that's what's being suggested.

 

[EvilGnome6]

They have a collection port and drain on the chimney. All the condensation ends up in a bucket. I've heard that bucket water is very nasty.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

 

[Burgs]

Chug it! Chug the bucket water dude!

 

[maida7]

the steam is not just water. It's full of volatile compounds from the boiling wort. Part of the reason you boil the wort is to remove these compounds. So it's important that you have a rolling boil and have the lid off. The rolling action of the boil turns the liquid over making it easier for the gasses to escape the liquid.

Some breweries pump the boiling liquid over a metal cone (called a china hat) so that it's in a thin layer with maximum surface area and the gasses have the most opportunity to escape the liquid.

 

[BendBrewer]

ah...........

 

[RedGlass]

Can I go (slightly) since the OP has mostly been answered.

Is there a consensus on lid on/off while steeping specialty grains in an extract brew? I always left it on during the steep, since there is a lid on when I mash an AG brew...but I've seen differing opinions. (sorry to threadjack)

 

[Hethen57]

From what I've read...the steam is taking some bad crap away from your wort and you want it to escape and not condense on the lid and drip back into your wort. I hadn't read this advice when I brewed my first batch and I thought the lid would hold in the heat better....the beer came out fine. As my knowledge grows, I keep refining my process...but it is certainly not fatal to your beer...but your beer should be better if you let that crap escape with the steam....this hobby wouldn't be as much fun if it didn't involve so much trial and error testing and drinking and testing and drinking

 

[RedGlass]

....this hobby wouldn't be as much fun if it didn't involve so much trial and error testing and drinking and testing and drinking

I'll drink to that!

 

[BendBrewer]

From what I've read...the steam is taking some bad crap away from your wort and you want it to escape and not condense on the lid and drip back into your wort. I hadn't read this advice when I brewed my first batch and I thought the lid would hold in the heat better....the beer came out fine. As my knowledge grows, I keep refining my process...but it is certainly not fatal to your beer...but your beer should be better if you let that crap escape with the steam....this hobby wouldn't be as much fun if it didn't involve so much trial and error testing and drinking and testing and drinking

Yeah, but I would like to see some science to back that up. I look at any brewhouse kettle and I can't imagine that there isn't any condensation dripping back onto the wort.

Do the 'bad crap' and water vapor escape the solution as a combined gas?

Do they condense at the same temp? I can see why you wouldn't want an enclosed vessel, but still can't see how this set-up keeps any condensation from dripping back onto the wort as the other gases and some steam leave the system through the chiminey. (similar to a partially covered stock pot)

Not saying I am correct, just saying I don't understand.

 

[KevinW]

This is from Palmers How To Brew:

"DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller."

I just thought I would add this in case there are any other HBT'ers who think Palmer knows a little bit about brewing. JK

 

[Shooter]

Yeah, but I would like to see some science to back that up. I look at any brewhouse kettle and I can't imagine that there isn't any condensation dripping back onto the wort.

Do the 'bad crap' and water vapor escape the solution as a combined gas?

Do they condense at the same temp? I can see why you wouldn't want an enclosed vessel, but still can't see how this set-up keeps any condensation from dripping back onto the wort as the other gases and some steam leave the system through the chiminey. (similar to a partially covered stock pot)

Not saying I am correct, just saying I don't understand.

I think the key is they drive MOST of the stuff out and collect MOST of the condensation. My understanding is there is a lip somewhere in those chimneys and the condesation tends to run down and collect in that trough and runs into an out flow pipe. I also suspect that there might be some stuff falling back into the wort, but, then again, it falls back into the boiling wort and will condense over and over again during the boil. Since the system is set up to collect most of the condensation you will, through the course of a boil, probably get rid of the bulk of DMS that way.

I think a partially covered pot probably works the same way. Some of the liquid with the DMS precursor collects on the lid, but it eventually falls back into the boiling wort. Over the course of a long 90 minute boil it will do this several times and enough of it probably gets out of the open side during that process to not be a big deal. If the pot is completely covered during that boil, very little of it escapes and it keeps just dropping back into the wort off the lid. Also, DMS is really more of an issue with lighter kilned malts like pilsener.

 

[BendBrewer]

Well, I guess I don't have to understand everything completely in order to follow best practices.

Off with the lid!

(And thanks for explaining it to me!)

 

[Shooter]

Is there a consensus on lid on/off while steeping specialty grains in an extract brew? I always left it on during the steep, since there is a lid on when I mash an AG brew...but I've seen differing opinions. (sorry to threadjack)

A lid can be on during a steep or a mash. It's really during the boil that you are going to drive off the DMS. If the lid is off during the mash/steep you'd loose heat a lot quicker.