lessons learned after 10 batches

[mongoose33]

I guess as a bottler, I worry less about oxigen suck-back than a kegger.

Suck-back is while the beer is in the fermenter, not the keg, and it's only occurring if you're cold-crashing the beer. The gases in the headspace of the fermenter contract as the beer cools, and as some of that CO2 is absorbed into the beer. That creates a partial vacuum drawing in air or whatever from outside the fermenter.

The issue we're discussing is how to have the gases sucked back into the fermenter be CO2 and not just air with its 21 percent oxygen content.

 

[mongoose33]

thanks for sharing your learnings. I'm only a few all grain batches in and struggling with mash efficiency myself. I've just upped the grain bill a bit to compensate, but curious if it's the crush as well.

Here are a few things to check:

1. Your crush. If too coarse, all the starch can't gelatinize, or it takes a long time to do so. I've seen some "crushes" on here where there are intact barley kernels making through. If you don't get the husk removed and the inside crushed, it's not going to convert.

2. Mash temp. If it's out of the range of about 148 to 157, you're not going to be as successful.

3. How is your water? A good mash needs a pH in the range of about 5.2-5.6; if you're very much outside this range, you're not going to be as successful. If you're not paying attention to water (perhaps just using tap water w/o knowing its composition), then I'd bet this is playing a role.

4. I found my efficiency rose when I stirred at 15- and 30-minutes. I don't use a violent, splashing stir, just trying to rehomogenize the mash. My efficiency shot up when I did this.

5. Make sure you're mashing long enough. I'm using a somewhat coarse crush (.035 on monster mill), compared to the .020 I used with my barley crusher. When I did the .020, I had most conversion done within 15 minutes, as the starch in the smaller particles gelatinized quickly and was made available to the enzymes for conversion. For instance, if I was expecting a pre-boil gravity of about 1.054, I might be at 1.044-1.048 within 15 minutes.

However, when I went back to .035, I was initially shocked to find that at 15 minutes, I might be about 1.018, maybe 1.020. I stirred, stirred again at 30 minutes. By the time I got through with a full hour mash, I was where I needed to be.

So, if you're mashing for 60 minutes, stir well and try 70 or even 75 minutes, see if that makes a difference. I've become less concerned about just cutting off the mash at 60 minutes, I'll go 70 or even a bit longer.

6. When you check your preboil gravity after lautering (or if BIAB, draining the bag), you need to stir the wort very well. I've found there can be strata within the wort, the sugar seems to be more concentrated at the bottom. I find this in the mash too--the sugar was concentrated in the grain, which of course sits at the bottom of the mash tun with liquid on top of it.

Anyway, good luck!

 

[Red04]

I guess as a bottler, I worry less about oxigen suck-back than a kegger.

I got into brewing so I could make NEIPAs. My research scared me into kegging, closed transfers, and blowoff tubes. I don’t know if any of it was warranted, but that’s where I’m at.

But the thought of cleaning bottles makes me ill anyway.

I also enjoyed building my side by side fridgeinstein kegerator/ferm chamber.

Here are a few things to check:

1. Your crush. If too coarse, all the starch can't gelatinize, or it takes a long time to do so. I've seen some "crushes" on here where there are intact barley kernels making through. If you don't get the husk removed and the inside crushed, it's not going to convert.

2. Mash temp. If it's out of the range of about 148 to 157, you're not going to be as successful.

3. How is your water? A good mash needs a pH in the range of about 5.2-5.6; if you're very much outside this range, you're not going to be as successful. If you're not paying attention to water (perhaps just using tap water w/o knowing its composition), then I'd bet this is playing a role.

4. I found my efficiency rose when I stirred at 15- and 30-minutes. I don't use a violent, splashing stir, just trying to rehomogenize the mash. My efficiency shot up when I did this.

5. Make sure you're mashing long enough. I'm using a somewhat coarse crush (.035 on monster mill), compared to the .020 I used with my barley crusher. When I did the .020, I had most conversion done within 15 minutes, as the starch in the smaller particles gelatinized quickly and was made available to the enzymes for conversion. For instance, if I was expecting a pre-boil gravity of about 1.054, I might be at 1.044-1.048 within 15 minutes.

However, when I went back to .035, I was initially shocked to find that at 15 minutes, I might be about 1.018, maybe 1.020. I stirred, stirred again at 30 minutes. By the time I got through with a full hour mash, I was where I needed to be.

So, if you're mashing for 60 minutes, stir well and try 70 or even 75 minutes, see if that makes a difference. I've become less concerned about just cutting off the mash at 60 minutes, I'll go 70 or even a bit longer.

6. When you check your preboil gravity after lautering (or if BIAB, draining the bag), you need to stir the wort very well. I've found there can be strata within the wort, the sugar seems to be more concentrated at the bottom. I find this in the mash too--the sugar was concentrated in the grain, which of course sits at the bottom of the mash tun with liquid on top of it.

Anyway, good luck!

Has anyone done an experiment and isolated the variables. Time vs crush, pH, stirring, temp.

So what pH puts you in the 60s? What temps will push you down several points?

If you suspect crush, what length of time will overcome it? 2 hours? 3 hours?

I guess everything is pretty easily corrected except crush. You gotta buy a mill.

 

[mongoose33]

I got into brewing so I could make NEIPAs. My research scared me into kegging, closed transfers, and blowoff tubes. I don’t know if any of it was warranted, but that’s where I’m at.

But the thought of cleaning bottles makes me ill anyway.

I just put them in the dishwasher. I use a vinator to spritz sanitizer in them just before bottling so it helps eliminate any of the rinse-aid that might still be on the bottle. Makes bottle washing trivial.

Has anyone done an experiment and isolated the variables. Time vs crush, pH, stirring, temp.

I don't know about the experiments, but if you haven't bought the four books Malt, Yeast, Water, Hops, I would recommend them.

So what pH puts you in the 60s? What temps will push you down several points?

I think you may be mixing apples and tranmissions here. What does "pH in the 60s" mean? And I don't know how, if at all, temps will push pH around. Never heard of or read anything where people were using temp to manipulate pH.

If you suspect crush, what length of time will overcome it? 2 hours? 3 hours?

I guess everything is pretty easily corrected except crush. You gotta buy a mill.

I have never been inclined to try different coarse crushes and test how long and if at all they'd convert. Mine convert, even with a coarse crush, it just takes the full hour or a bit more.

Even the current conventional wisdom about BIAB--that you want a finer crush--I think is likely unnecessary, so long as you crush enough, and wait long enough, and have the right pH and temp.

I'm doing a no-sparge, full mash in a mash tun at the same parameters I was using when BIAB. In my case (accounting for system losses like dead space, 8.25 gallons with a 12# grain bill, and a .035 gap on the mill....an hour will do it. I've been letting it go a bit more just because. I'm getting the conversion I expect, so I don't see any reason to go further.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I do something very similar (details here), and it's very effective. The cooling capacity of the ice water is the key. It eliminates any restrictions imposed by ambient or groundwater temps.

I first recirculate from a 5gal bucket of tap water. When the wort and water temps equalize, I switch to recirculating from a cooler filled with ice water. The bucket of now hot water gets saved for use as wash water during cleanup. The ice water in the cooler turns into warm water, which is used for rinsing during cleanup. The IC is cleaned by just dunking in the cooler a few times.

The higher ice surface area of small ice cubes or crushed ice is more effective at heat transfer than large blocks of ice. I get a 20lb bag of ice at a local grocery store for a little more than $2.

This is what I do as well. Garden hose to chiller for the initial temperature drop. Once I've gotten about all I can from that I have a cooler filled with ice water (20# bag of ice dumped in water). I use a small pond pump to move the water through the chiller and back to the cooler. This drops the wort to pitching temps quite quickly. Leaves me with a Homer bucket filled with hot water and a cooler with additional water for cleaning.

 

[Kharnynb]

Suck-back is while the beer is in the fermenter, not the keg, and it's only occurring if you're cold-crashing the beer. The gases in the headspace of the fermenter contract as the beer cools, and as some of that CO2 is absorbed into the beer. That creates a partial vacuum drawing in air or whatever from outside the fermenter.

The issue we're discussing is how to have the gases sucked back into the fermenter be CO2 and not just air with its 21 percent oxygen content.

I know, but with bottlecarbonation, the little oxigen will be used up by the yeast either way.

 

[LKABrewer]

I know, but with bottlecarbonation, the little oxigen will be used up by the yeast either way.

Yeast may absorb most of the free oxygen, but it cannot do anything about oxidized beer. Do not confuse free oxygen with oxidation.

 

[Rodent]

Exactly. It’s one or the other. Crash under pressure or provide co2 via balloon or bag to fill fermenter when dropping the temperature.

thoughts on fermenting in a temp controlled mini chest freezer, where the space is filled with CO2 blow-off during fermentation. if the space is not disturbed, any suck back should be CO2 since that's the only atmosphere within the chamber ... or am I missing something obvious because it's right in front of me?

 

[Kharnynb]

do you guys coldcrash for weeks or something.
the amounts of oxigen and contact duration are minute.

 

[Red04]

do you guys coldcrash for weeks or something.
the amounts of oxigen and contact duration are minute.

Mine sucks back a 1 gallon ziploc full of cO2. Not sure what the impact would be if it sucked back 1 gallon of atmosphere for a few days.

 

[GoeHaarden]

do you guys coldcrash for weeks or something.
the amounts of oxigen and contact duration are minute.

Its the drop in temperature, not the length of time. Fill a balloon with CO2, and attach it to your airlock outpost. Watch as it drinks 2-4L of CO2. Its significant in my book, but I guess minute can be a subjective measurement...

 

[devils4ever]

I went straight to all grain and kegging. Here’s what I’ve learned.

1. Get a refractometer and some extra long pipettes for sampling. I’m not sure why anyone would use a hydrometer.

2. Use a blowoff tube. Buy 100’ of 3/8” hose. Use 3’ each time and throw it away.

3. I can only get low 60% efficiency with LHBS crush. Have some DME or corn sugar on hand at first.

4. Calibrate/mark gallons of all equipment.

5. Suckback is real when cold crashing. I blow up a 1 gallon ziploc with co2 and electrical tape to end of disposable blowoff tube.

6. No drinking until boil.

7. Get a brewers log book

8. Buy a 6+ gallon carboy or fermenter for NEIPAs. Hops and trub take up a gallon.

9. Immersion chiller doesn’t work well during summer when tap water is 90 degrees. Even with a pre chiller. I have to solve this next.

1. Agree. I just bought one after years of brewing without it and wish I bought one sooner.
2. I find that if I keep the temperature at the low end of the range for the yeast I'm using, I never need a blow-off tube. YMMV.
3. Use software to calculate the amount of malt needed for your efficiency and you won't need DME or sugar. I hit 65% pretty consistently and use Beersmith to figure it all out.
4. Agree. Done.
5. I just loosen the airlock during cold crashing and don't worry about it if a few tenths of an ounce of Star San gets into the beer.
6. I wish I could follow this to the "T", but I don't. I try to though.
7. I print out all recipes from Beersmith as my form of record keeping.
8. Agree.
9. My immersion chiller gets my wort down into the mid-60s even in the summer in NJ. If needed, use ice and a pump to recirculate.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Its the drop in temperature, not the length of time. Fill a balloon with CO2, and attach it to your airlock outpost. Watch as it drinks 2-4L of CO2. Its significant in my book, but I guess minute can be a subjective measurement...

I cold crashed for the first time last batch, in a fermenting bucket. To prevent the water from getting sucked back I removed the airlock and just wrapped plastic wrap around the rubber grommet thing on top of the bucket. So I guess that was bad? Haven't tasted that one yet but should be done bottle conditioning in about a week.

 

[mongoose33]

I cold crashed for the first time last batch, in a fermenting bucket. To prevent the water from getting sucked back I removed the airlock and just wrapped plastic wrap around the rubber grommet thing on top of the bucket. So I guess that was bad? Haven't tasted that one yet but should be done bottle conditioning in about a week.

Bad? Depends on your definition. It allowed air to go into the fermenter, which introduced oxygen. Either that, or you created a partial vacuum which, upon opening the bucket to get the beer out, will expose it to air.

I think the general rule of thumb is that you want to limit oxygen contact with your beer as much as you reasonably can.

 

[El Nino]

I've been using all refractometer since about 4 batches ago (On 9 now). Brewing 2.5 gallon batches, it's painful to use 4oz for a hydro sample lol. But in any case, before I started using it exclusively I compared readings and I've been getting the same results.

The biggest ah-ha moment for me was: Bottling without a bottling bucket, don't do it. I first learned from a NB kit, and they showed 2 people siphoning straight into the bottle. Really sucks if you don't have a partner, use a bottling bucket. If you don't have one, that should be your next purchase, makes bottling SO much easier.

 

[Blazinlow86]

do you guys coldcrash for weeks or something.
the amounts of oxigen and contact duration are minute.

Some of us are VERY obsessive about making the best and long lasting product. Easily avoided oxidization like that to me is unacceptable. I cringe when I see a corny keg being filled with a open lid.... Lol. Cheers

 

[kh54s10]

Some of us are VERY obsessive about making the best and long lasting product. Easily avoided oxidization like that to me is unacceptable. I cringe when I see a corny keg being filled with a open lid.... Lol. Cheers

I've never filled a keg any other way and I have had no issues with oxidation. My kegged beers taste the same or better near the end as in the beginning. And some styles were consumed over the period of about 6 months. Beers that last longer than that get bottled so that I don't tie up a keg that long.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I've never filled a keg any other way and I have had no issues with oxidation. My kegged beers taste the same or better near the end as in the beginning. And some styles were consumed over the period of about 6 months. Beers that last longer than that get bottled so that I don't tie up a keg that long.

Not saying it doesn't work. Not too be a smartass but Ive driven without my seatbelt several times successfully also. Doesn't necessarily mean it's the better way. Cheers

 

[BongoYodeler]

Really sucks if you don't have a partner, use a bottling bucket. If you don't have one, that should be your next purchase, makes bottling SO much easier.

Admittedly I've had a few beers, but do you mean my next purchase should be a bottling bucket or a partner?

 

[Red04]

Admittedly I've had a few beers, but do you mean my next purchase should be a bottling bucket or a partner?

I’d get a bucket from a benefit/cost standpoint.

 

[El Nino]

I’d get a bucket from a benefit/cost standpoint.

He's right, the bucket won't take half your money if they decide to quit on you

 

[b_oh_bee]

Here are a few things to check:

1. Your crush. If too coarse, all the starch can't gelatinize, or it takes a long time to do so. I've seen some "crushes" on here where there are intact barley kernels making through. If you don't get the husk removed and the inside crushed, it's not going to convert.

2. Mash temp. If it's out of the range of about 148 to 157, you're not going to be as successful.

3. How is your water? A good mash needs a pH in the range of about 5.2-5.6; if you're very much outside this range, you're not going to be as successful. If you're not paying attention to water (perhaps just using tap water w/o knowing its composition), then I'd bet this is playing a role.

4. I found my efficiency rose when I stirred at 15- and 30-minutes. I don't use a violent, splashing stir, just trying to rehomogenize the mash. My efficiency shot up when I did this.

5. Make sure you're mashing long enough. I'm using a somewhat coarse crush (.035 on monster mill), compared to the .020 I used with my barley crusher. When I did the .020, I had most conversion done within 15 minutes, as the starch in the smaller particles gelatinized quickly and was made available to the enzymes for conversion. For instance, if I was expecting a pre-boil gravity of about 1.054, I might be at 1.044-1.048 within 15 minutes.

However, when I went back to .035, I was initially shocked to find that at 15 minutes, I might be about 1.018, maybe 1.020. I stirred, stirred again at 30 minutes. By the time I got through with a full hour mash, I was where I needed to be.

So, if you're mashing for 60 minutes, stir well and try 70 or even 75 minutes, see if that makes a difference. I've become less concerned about just cutting off the mash at 60 minutes, I'll go 70 or even a bit longer.

6. When you check your preboil gravity after lautering (or if BIAB, draining the bag), you need to stir the wort very well. I've found there can be strata within the wort, the sugar seems to be more concentrated at the bottom. I find this in the mash too--the sugar was concentrated in the grain, which of course sits at the bottom of the mash tun with liquid on top of it.

Anyway, good luck!

some good tips. I am building up from distilled at the moment using BeerSmith for the calculations to try and get me to 5.2pH. Mash temp last run hovered around 154+/- a couple. I am using a mash&boil so I plan on confirming those temps with my own thermometer next batch. I mashed for 60min.

unfortunately I'm not crushing my own grain yet, it's a mix of online and my not-so-local shop. I could ask what their mill gap is.

I will definitely give a stir too when grabbing my pre boil gravity next time as well.

thanks for the tips!

 

[GPP33]

do you guys coldcrash for weeks or something.
the amounts of oxigen and contact duration are minute.

Not really. The amount of air suck back can easily equal the entire head space. At cold temps the oxygen in the air will dissolve into the beer at an accelerated rate. Once it’s in the beer it has until you drink it to actually oxidize the beer. Most brewers who have taken cold side oxidation seriously have noticed a step function improvement in the quality and shelf life of their beer. Some styles like a barley wine or scotch ale can handle oxygen exposure like a champ while others like a NEIPA seem to wither at the mere mention of oxygen. Naturally your brewing habits and style preferences will dictate your personal experiences.

 

[El Nino]

I think I got another thing to add:

If you're making a pipeline, always make sure you have a lighter beer, unless you have a huge tolerance lol. I'm stuck with 3 batches of beer that are all in the high 6's-high 7% range and it's fine if I'm having a couple at home. However, when hanging out with friends, drinking more than 4+ = getting blasted. Good thing my own brew doesn't give me a hangover but still, always have a batch of 'session beer' on hand

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I think I got another thing to add:

If you're making a pipeline, always make sure you have a lighter beer, unless you have a huge tolerance lol. I'm stuck with 3 batches of beer that are all in the high 6's-high 7% range and it's fine if I'm having a couple at home. However, when hanging out with friends, drinking more than 4+ = getting blasted. Good thing my own brew doesn't give me a hangover but still, always have a batch of 'session beer' on hand

My first batch just kicked, and 2nd batch is bottle conditioning another week or so but it's an 8.5% DIPA. Going through those 50 bottles should be interesting

 

[Red04]

I think I got another thing to add:

If you're making a pipeline, always make sure you have a lighter beer, unless you have a huge tolerance lol. I'm stuck with 3 batches of beer that are all in the high 6's-high 7% range and it's fine if I'm having a couple at home. However, when hanging out with friends, drinking more than 4+ = getting blasted. Good thing my own brew doesn't give me a hangover but still, always have a batch of 'session beer' on hand

Agree 100%

 

[GoeHaarden]

I'm stuck with 3 batches of beer that are all in the high 6's-high 7% range

You poor thing!