leaving ales in the primary more than 10 days

[Revvy]

RedIroc lets see a picture... im interested in making one

plenty of pics here

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/using-pasta-maker-mill-grain-75784/index2.html

Just pointing out that it's similarly priced to Barley Crusher.

Hmmm.....really? 150.00 + shipping and handling for a crusher is the same as 20 bucks (or whatever the sale price of the pasta maker, which I have already, btw) and whatever scraps you may have in the basement or 40 dollars max for parts and the pasta maker? Wow, I thought I was bad in math.

We figure that's at least 100.00 savings we could use for ingredients, and the satisfaction of making something ourself.

 

[JuanKenobi]

Hmmm.....really? 150.00 + shipping and handling for a crusher is the same as 20 bucks (or whatever the sale price of the pasta maker, which I have already, btw) and whatever scraps you may have in the basement or 40 dollars max for parts and the pasta maker? Wow, I thought I was bad in math.

We figure that's at least 100.00 savings we could use for ingredients, and the satisfaction of making something ourself.

I was asking if anyone had any insight into the comparison of 2 specific devices. The actual "grain mill" attachment for the Kitchen Aid mixer that they mention home brewing in the promo for (and use the term grist) on their website is ~$120 which is about the same as the 7# Barley Crusher if you buy it direct.

 

[Revvy]

Again, I was asking if anyone had any insight into the comparison of 2 specific devices. The actual "grain mill" attachment for the Kitchen Aid mixer that they mention home brewing in the promo for (and use the term grist) on their website is ~$120 which is about the same as the 7# Barley Crusher if you buy it direct.

Thought you were talking about the pasta machine mod NOT the kitchen ade version (since you were quote redroc talking about his pasta mill), sorry...You are right...it ain't a good comparison...besides who would wanna risk a 400.00 kitchenade motor (on top of the 150 attachment)

That's been discussed as well...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/search.php?searchid=3479974

 

[pjj2ba]

OK, I'll stir the pot a little. The oft stated phrase is that "leaving your beer in primary for an extended time will not result in off flavors" What this fails to convey is that this does not exclude the production of flavors that are not necessarily considered off. Yes, there is maturation and the cleaning up of "green" flavors. At the same time, new flavor compounds are being produced. The more yeast around, the more these flavors will develop. I'm not talking strong flavors here, I'm talking subtle flavors. The kind that make the difference between a good beer and a very good beer. I find beers that I make using a secondary have a much cleaner taste, allowing the malts and hops to really shine through (Obviously this would be different for Hefe's and Belgians).

Just to stir it a little more. Ask any microbiologist what happens to the bugs they are growing after the stationary phase of growth has been reached (fermentation complete). The answer will be autolysis. Once the food has been used up, the bacteria, yeast, etc. will start dying and the cells will lyse. If you maintain your temperatures well, this can be slow, but it is occuring, it is a fact a microorganism life. This will produce flavors, but not the wild nasty ones people think - as long temperatures are kept under control and there is no contamination - that is when you get the strong, easily noticible flavors. I find beers left in primary for an extended time will have a subtle yeasty/bready flavor that I personally find out of place in many of the styles I like. Like many others, I'm my own worst critic.

I think a big key is temperature control, which I believe is what Jamil Z. says is a huge key to brewing very good beers. If you have well maintained and COOL temperatures the effect is minimal (note, not non-existent). I'm a little suspicious that one advantage of a secondary is that the temperature has less effect since there is less yeast around. If you don't have a good system to control the temperature, then I think this is the situation when I would seriously consider using a secondary.

 

[Revvy]

OK, I'll stir the pot a little.

Have fun!!!!

I think I said I'm done discussing or debating it here...actually done debating it at all....

I don't think that was never the original point of this thread and as I said it's been done to death on this place already.

 

[flyangler18]

Just to stir it a little more. Ask any microbiologist what happens to the bugs they are growing after the stationary phase of growth has been reached (fermentation complete). The answer will be autolysis. Once the food has been used up, the bacteria, yeast, etc. will start dying and the cells will lyse. If you maintain your temperatures well, this can be slow, but it is occuring, it is a fact a microorganism life. This will produce flavors, but not the wild nasty ones people think - as long temperatures are kept under control and there is no contamination - that is when you get the strong, easily noticible flavors. I find beers left in primary for an extended time will have a subtle yeasty/bready flavor that I personally find out of place in many of the styles I like. Like many others, I'm my own worst critic.

Hooray for you, sir!

 

[steelerguy]

Meh..we've covered Diacytel in ales before as well...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/pr...d-butter-please-70438/index2.html#post1080693



Like I said Steelerguy...we've debated it and discussed it to death..no need to go on with it....choose to brew how you want.

The OP wanted to know why Pappa Charlie said one thing, and so many of us do it differently....I answered it..

I've said all I have to say on this subject in this thread...

I actually thought you were already done going on with it, I was just giving a rebuttal because I don't think you read my post very well. I actually don't think you read it very well again, because you just repeated what I said basically...do what works best for you.

OK, I'll stir the pot a little. The oft stated phrase is that "leaving your beer in primary for an extended time will not result in off flavors" What this fails to convey is that this does not exclude the production of flavors that are not necessarily considered off. Yes, there is maturation and the cleaning up of "green" flavors. At the same time, new flavor compounds are being produced. The more yeast around, the more these flavors will develop. I'm not talking strong flavors here, I'm talking subtle flavors. The kind that make the difference between a good beer and a very good beer. I find beers that I make using a secondary have a much cleaner taste, allowing the malts and hops to really shine through (Obviously this would be different for Hefe's and Belgians).

Just to stir it a little more. Ask any microbiologist what happens to the bugs they are growing after the stationary phase of growth has been reached (fermentation complete). The answer will be autolysis. Once the food has been used up, the bacteria, yeast, etc. will start dying and the cells will lyse. If you maintain your temperatures well, this can be slow, but it is occuring, it is a fact a microorganism life. This will produce flavors, but not the wild nasty ones people think - as long temperatures are kept under control and there is no contamination - that is when you get the strong, easily noticible flavors. I find beers left in primary for an extended time will have a subtle yeasty/bready flavor that I personally find out of place in many of the styles I like. Like many others, I'm my own worst critic.

I think a big key is temperature control, which I believe is what Jamil Z. says is a huge key to brewing very good beers. If you have well maintained and COOL temperatures the effect is minimal (note, not non-existent). I'm a little suspicious that one advantage of a secondary is that the temperature has less effect since there is less yeast around. If you don't have a good system to control the temperature, then I think this is the situation when I would seriously consider using a secondary.

Agree with you completely and it is one of the reason I try to get my beer into the secondary when fermentation is done. Strangely enough, I also got my BS in molecular and cellular biology and worked with brewers yeast quite a bit in college. You learn that organisms under stress make mistakes and die, this is usually not a good thing.

Regardless, it is not my intent to offend or insult people who prescribe to the long primary. I just don't think it does any good once fermentation is done and really can only do bad if left long enough. I think people sometimes forget that there are billions of yeast cells still in the beer when you move to secondary but since you can't see them but you can see the cake, it must be the cake performing the conditioning magic.

 

[ChickenSoop]

Is it possible to leave it in the primary/secondary too long?

I have a cream ale, OG: 1.04, FG 1.008, made with 7 lbs LME.
All went to plan, 2 weeks in primary, 2 weeks in secondary.
Then I bottled it. It was a kit, and they supplied 8 oz of corn sugar for priming - I probably only should have used 5 oz. I have plastic bottles, so no worry on bottle bombs.

I was very patient and waited 6 weeks after bottling.

On week 6, I put one in the fridge for 3 days for testing. I tested it - expecting a nicely finished beer, but instead it was sour green apples.

Did I leave it on the primary too long and maybe too much yeast dropped out?

 

[Sharkeydude]

Well, I gotta say, after doing the the St.Charlie (good way to name him Revvy) way for so many years and then reading HTB, brewing my first batch in 12 years last weekend and getting re-confirmation here, I am at ease that the Cream Ale I've got in the primary will be fine for at least 3 weeks. It's still a bit cloudy after only 11 days but, it will settle eventually.

I do worry about the Better Bottle it sits in. A huge sin according to St. Charlie to brew in plastic but, I've popped a couple of the glass ones...not pretty.

I do have a question, can I just siphon into my corny and let it age for another 2-3 weeks with no problems? It seems the same as a secondary and I can just blow off the residual yeast on my first couple of pours right?

It seems a lot easier and less hassle to primary for 3 and then keg till aged for 3 to me.

 

[JuanKenobi]

Yup. I go from primary to corny all my basic ales and let them sit in the cellar for anywhere from 1 - 3 weeks before carbing. I think you'll find it common place these days to ferment in plastic. I use plastic 'ale pails' for some and glass for some.

 

[Weezknight]

These Primary vs. Secondary debates seem to pop up often, and I never know what to think. I'll be brewing my first batch in a few weeks, and I still haven't decided if I'm going to secondary, or not. It seems that with each of these threads I make a different decision.

I guess, as most have pointed out, I'll try both and see which results I like better.

 

[HenryHill]

Is it possible to leave it in the primary/secondary too long?

I have a cream ale, OG: 1.04, FG 1.008, made with 7 lbs LME.
All went to plan, 2 weeks in primary, 2 weeks in secondary.
Then I bottled it. It was a kit, and they supplied 8 oz of corn sugar for priming - I probably only should have used 5 oz. I have plastic bottles, so no worry on bottle bombs.

I was very patient and waited 6 weeks after bottling.

On week 6, I put one in the fridge for 3 days for testing. I tested it - expecting a nicely finished beer, but instead it was sour green apples.

Did I leave it on the primary too long and maybe too much yeast dropped out?

Heh, sorta right along with the just give it time advice, this is an off flavor that that is discussed here:

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Common Off-Flavors

"Acetaldehyde=A flavor of green apples or freshly cut pumpkin; it is an intermediate compound in the formation of alcohol. Some yeast strains produce more than others, but generally it's presence indicates that the beer is too young and needs more time to condition."

The yeast may have lagged; I have taken to swirling the primary and giving it a couple more days before even taking a hydrometer reading, to see if it should be racked, just because.

I had a big stout in a bottle that a friend of a friend gave us to taste, that had this and it actually paired quite good with the heavy chocolate stout; thing is it won't last. I wish I knew how to make such a natural flavor of green apples as this was because it was friggin awesome in that beer.

 

[Revvy]

Heh, sorta right along with the just give it time advice, this is an off flavor that that is discussed here:

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Common Off-Flavors

"Acetaldehyde=A flavor of green apples or freshly cut pumpkin; it is an intermediate compound in the formation of alcohol. Some yeast strains produce more than others, but generally it's presence indicates that the beer is too young and needs more time to condition."

The yeast may have lagged; I have taken to swirling the primary and giving it a couple more days before even taking a hydrometer reading, to see if it should be racked, just because.

I had a big stout in a bottle that a friend of a friend gave us to taste, that had this and it actually paired quite good with the heavy chocolate stout; thing is it won't last. I wish I knew how to make such a natural flavor of green apples as this was because it was friggin awesome in that beer.

Yeah...he doesn't say actually (unless I missed it) how long the beer was actually in the bottle. That is usually more of a factor than how long a beer sits in primary or secondary. That usually has to do with Bottle Conditioning.

Revvy's Blog-"Of patience and Bottle Conditioning."

 

[ChickenSoop]

I had a big stout in a bottle that a friend of a friend gave us to taste, that had this and it actually paired quite good with the heavy chocolate stout; thing is it won't last. I wish I knew how to make such a natural flavor of green apples as this was because it was friggin awesome in that beer.

Actually I drank about 25% of the bottle. Green Apple Cream Ale was not what I was aiming to make, but it was drinkable, but not great. It might be good if you had a real green apple taste somehow, but not this green beer. Green Apple beer might actually be good.

Maybe this funny, but I considered drinking it all, but dumped it as I did not know if it was going to put me on the toilet for a day.

It tasted fine on bottling day, no green apple taste, so it happened in the bottle. It's been in the bottle for 6 weeks now.

I'll pack it away for a month and then test it again. It's my second batch of beer, so still developing my skills.