Late hop addition tweaking

[100amps]

I recently tried using late hop additions -only- in a batch of pale ale. Nothing before 20 minutes. I don't recall the exact additions or times, but I ended up with pretty much 'hop juice'. I wasn't expecting so much juiciness, what I wanted was much more of that late boil addition aroma, which seems quite different and a bit nicer than dry hop aroma. Alas, my batch of Amarillo juice isn't much fun to drink.

Has anyone experimented much with qty and time of LH additions to really understand the ratio of flavor vs aroma at various points in time?

[EDIT] Here's the hop schedule from that batch:

1.00 oz Amarillo [8.80 %] - Boil 22.0 min 18.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [8.80 %] - Boil 10.0 min 10.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [8.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min 5.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [8.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 5.0 min 2.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Amarillo [8.80 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days

 

[100amps]

My guess for a future strategy, is to add a little bittering hops, and substantially reduce (or eliminate) the 20 minute addition and likewise increase the 5 minute and whirlpool additions.

This would get me about the same bitterness:

0.25 oz Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min 9.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [8.80 %] - Boil 10.0 min 10.6 IBUs
2.00 oz Amarillo [8.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min 11.6 IBUs
2.00 oz Amarillo [8.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 5.0 min 5.8 IBUs
2.00 oz Amarillo [8.80 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days

Think I should eliminate the 10 minute addition too? What would your experience suggest?

 

[hottpeper13]

Instead of eliminating the 20 min addition I move it to FWH that gives the IBU of a 20 min but very mellow bitterness.

 

[100amps]

The thing I want to understand better is which additions contribute mostly to the juicy flavour, so I can reduce them in favour of aroma only additions.

Prevailing wisdom suggests the 20 -> 5 minute boil additions add the juiciness (flavour) in some varying proportion (a bell curve in there somewhere probably). It's not clear to me what the proportional contribution is.

If I want to increase aroma (not dry-hopping aroma) without the juice, I suppose I'll need to use knock-out additions, whirlpool/ hop-stand techniques. But maybe there's a bunch of juiciness coming from those too(?).

..TJ

 

[Brettomomyces]

I have been playing with hop stands ever since going electric, but you can do em with gas too, and I'm finding some really nice flavor from hop stands. Not much aroma really, some, but the flavor is outstanding. I've been doing 1 hour for my pales and I just did 2hr for an imperial IPA that's in primary. Really excited for that one.

Edit, I totally just misread your post, too many home brews. But if you're looking for concentrated aroma, a hop back might be a good idea to look into. It's a great way to infuse aroma.

 

[enkamania]

+1 On FWH

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Check out the findings here about fwh. It is further down in the presentation. Fwh will give you more bitterness than the 20 minute additions as it is more on track with a 60 minute additon. It is a different type of bitterness and is generally percieved better. Now matter what you do you should layer the hops. It adds great complexity.

https://www.hopunion.com/library/Brewing India Pale Ales - Matt Cole.pdf

 

[DukeAC]

Another +1 to the FWH. I've made a couple of pale ales/IPAs with FWH (Magnum or Apollo) and then additions at 5 min, flameout (with 10 min steep) and dry hops that have come out really nicely.

Also, are you set on only using Amarillo? Part of the "juiciness" you are getting could just be on your hop selection. I've recently made a pale ale with a FWH addition of magnum with large hop additions at 5 min, flameout (with 10 minute steep) and dry hop. It was mostly Amarillo with some Citra and Cascade, but ended up being over the top fruity. I wasn't exactly what I was going for, but it ended up tasting great (much better than I expected even!). If you are looking for less fruitiness/juiciness, you could try pairing the Amarillo with Simcoe or something a little less fruity with a similar hop schedule.

 

[100amps]

Yep, that brew was just all-Amarillo because I was trying it out. I do that with hops I'm not well acquainted with. It was also the experimental batch to try the Late Hop Addition technique. Mission accomplished.

But you're right, DukeAC, much of the juiciness could be just part of Amarillo's nature. After becoming acquainted with Amarillo, I believe that it does not stand well alone. Simcoe or something with other than citrus flavours is needed. Cascade's floral aromas would also help.

What I have since learned is that, yes, there is a such a thing as too much hops, particularly for a less intense beer like a 5% pale ale. The flavor becomes much too intense for the malt structure, and the bitter vegetal, chlorophyll flavour starts to intrude. I read one theory that pellet hops are more prone to release those flavours than whole hops because of the shredding and cell damage that occurs during production. It sounds plausible.

I honestly don't think it's possible to make a well-balanced beer with -only- LHA because getting adequate bitterness that way requires far too much green matter. Less is more at some point, and balance can't be taken for granted. Also, I'm now under the impression that the flavor and aroma attributes of a hop variety are not as discrete as we are led to believe. Simply by adding hops at KO instead of 10-15 minutes does not guarantee we get aroma instead of flavour. There is plenty of flavour extracted very late in the game.

The replies about FWH'ing are irrelevant to my question, which is about the flavor and aroma balance from late hop additions, not the nature or level of bitterness per se.

..TJ

 

[orangemen5]

Your basically talking about hop bursting. Which is no traditional 60min addition or very little.
There's a lot of great info about it and ppl making great beers with this technique.
FWIW I brew an all citra pale ale with late hop additions.
1oz @15
1oz@10
.5oz@5
.5oz@1
1.5 @ flameout.
Turns out great. About 42 IBU's. It is juicy though but I always attributed that to the citra. Never brewed it with other hops to compare though.

 

[100amps]

Yup, hopbursting.

I think you would find it juicy with all hops, unless you find some insanely high AA + nice aroma hops to reduce the amount of foliage needed. The lower the AAs, the more hops you need, and the juicier it gets.

And I guess for lighter beer styles, that juiciness would have to be the goal. Keeping it within reason and under control is the part that would require some diligent experimentation.