Large calculation differences between Brewing Classic Styles and BeerSmith

[thehopbandit]

I have recently been messing around with inputting recipes from Brewing Classic Styles into BeerSmith so I can convert/adjust them for my setup.

According to BCS, the recipes are formulated assuming:
7 gallon boil
6 gallons left after boil
5.5 gallons into the fermenter
5 gallons into the bottles

I have setup the equipment and volume profiles in BeerSmith according to this. I have ensured that the post-boil volume is six gallons. However, when I enter a recipe exactly as stated, I am getting a large difference. The book states an OG of 1.055 while BeerSmith is calculating roughly 1.043.

The items are being entered exactly as stated for the extract recipe.

Any tips here? Anyone else experience this? I was expecting slight variation, but not this much.

 

[thehopbandit]

I hate to bump a topic, but does anyone have an idea?

 

[DSmith]

Is the predicted post-boil gravity the same (within +/- 2 gravity points) as the recipe?

Could it be a 90 boil and larger preboil volume?

BCS uses 70% mash efficiency. My limited experience with Beersmith works with Brewhouse efficiency. I may be very wrong on this because I'm more familiar with ProMash and DIY spreadsheet gravity calculators and focus on mash efficiency only.

 

[PistolaPete]

I use the Brewtoad program and do mostly extract w/ grain or partial mashes so I can't say for sure whats going on in your case but I usually base all my recipes on the BCS book also and I've noticed that some of the OG differences between recipes and programs being due to the PPG settings for the fermentables like grains and extracts and also the efficiency settings.

 

[stpug]

I, personally, would use the recipes as a rough guide to formulate your own recipe for YOUR system. Keeping things somewhat proportional should yield very similar results. It does seem that 70% mash efficiency is what is used in the book, which puts the beersmith brewhouse efficiency REALLY low (60% maybe).

Can you give possibly post an example equipment profile and BCS recipe to test out on my end? You can export each one individually by selecting it, right-clicking, 'Export selected..."; and then you can attach the BSMX files to a reply in this thread.

 

[thehopbandit]

I, personally, would use the recipes as a rough guide to formulate your own recipe for YOUR system. Keeping things somewhat proportional should yield very similar results. It does seem that 70% mash efficiency is what is used in the book, which puts the beersmith brewhouse efficiency REALLY low (60% maybe).



Can you give possibly post an example equipment profile and BCS recipe to test out on my end? You can export each one individually by selecting it, right-clicking, 'Export selected..."; and then you can attach the BSMX files to a reply in this thread.

I am a little bit leery to post a recipe from BCS since it is copyrighted material, but if it helps any, the recipe was McQuaker's Oatmeal Stout. If any of you have BCS and BeerSmith, maybe it would be useful to see what some of you come up with entering the recipe?

The BeerSmith efficiency was the default 70%. Pre boil size was 7 gallon, post boil size was 6 gallons, 5.5 into the fermenter, and 5 into bottles. I entered the recipe proportions just as they appeared in the book.

If I recall correctly it was calling for 6.8 lbs of LME, which already seems off:

6.8 lbs x 36 ppg = 244.8 points / 6 gallon post boil = 1.041 approximate OG

The steeping grains will obviously provide marginal gravity, but not enough to get it to 1.055.

 

[stpug]

Here's how you use BeerSmith to work with BCS recipes.

1) You need to create an equipment profile that matches the expectations from the book (Download link below)
2) All "extract plus steeping grains" recipes in the book are expected to give 70% mash efficiency which means you need to create the recipe as a partial mash recipe AND you need to keep your steeping temperature right around 155±2°F. If you create it as an 'extract' recipe then no matter how much grain you add to the recipe the OG will not change.
3) For any recipe you use from BCS, you need to adjust your Brewhouse Efficiency until you see your mash efficiency change to ~70% - this will be different for every recipe in the book. Sometimes BeerSmith doesn't show the mash efficiency change immediately and the easiest way of having it refresh itself is to hit 'Save'.

In the case of McQuakers Oatmeal Stout:
-Use the equipment profile provided below or make one similar on your system
-Adjust brewhouse efficiency to 47% which should make mash efficiency ~70%
-Those two things will bring the BS estimated OG to 1.057, and the book says 1.055.

I hope this helps.

View attachment BCS_EqupmentProfile_Extract.bsmx

 

[DSmith]

I am a little bit leery to post a recipe from BCS since it is copyrighted material, but if it helps any, the recipe was McQuaker's Oatmeal Stout. If any of you have BCS and BeerSmith, maybe it would be useful to see what some of you come up with entering the recipe?

The BeerSmith efficiency was the default 70%. Pre boil size was 7 gallon, post boil size was 6 gallons, 5.5 into the fermenter, and 5 into bottles. I entered the recipe proportions just as they appeared in the book.

If I recall correctly it was calling for 6.8 lbs of LME, which already seems off:

6.8 lbs x 36 ppg = 244.8 points / 6 gallon post boil = 1.041 approximate OG

The steeping grains will obviously provide marginal gravity, but not enough to get it to 1.055.

The grains in that extract recipe do add up to about 13 gravity points (6 gallon end of boil, 70% efficiency) which does add up to the recipe original gravity. I think these should be mashed with some base malt (partial mash) to get conversion.

I did this recipe as all-grain and would mash a few degrees lower and maybe for 90 minutes next time to get the attenuation listed. I think mine ended near 1.021 and was a little thick for my tastes. Yooper's oatmeal stout is on my list to try soon.

 

[thehopbandit]

2) All "extract plus steeping grains" recipes in the book are expected to give 70% mash efficiency which means you need to create the recipe as a partial mash recipe AND you need to keep your steeping temperature right around 155±2°F. If you create it as an 'extract' recipe then no matter how much grain you add to the recipe the OG will not change.

I just messed around with the BeerSmith settings and the steeping grains did actually have a (small) effect on the OG for the extract recipe type. Just using the LME, the OG was estimated at 1.041. Adding the rest of the steeping grains from the recipe brings the OG to 1.043. In How to Brew, there is a chart showing the expected PPG from steeping grain. I'm a little bit confused why I would need to use partial mash in BeerSmith when the recipe is an extract with steeping grain recipe in BCS. Theoretically, the recipe in BCS is also accounting for steeping instead of mashing or partial mashing.

In the case of McQuakers Oatmeal Stout:
-Use the equipment profile provided below or make one similar on your system
-Adjust brewhouse efficiency to 47% which should make mash efficiency ~70%
-Those two things will bring the BS estimated OG to 1.057, and the book says 1.055.

The equipment profile you provided was exactly how I had it setup originally, aside from setting the Brewhouse efficiency to 47%. I left it at 72%. What is the significance of the 47% number? I guess I'm wondering why one needs to make the brewhouse efficiency number so low. How does brewhouse efficiency differ from mash efficiency?

The grains in that extract recipe do add up to about 13 gravity points (6 gallon end of boil, 70% efficiency) which does add up to the recipe original gravity. I think these should be mashed with some base malt (partial mash) to get conversion.

Really? You are assuming partial mash right? Because the calculations for steeping them don't seem to be anywhere close to 13 points. The problem I am trying to figure out is the recipe listed in BCS is specifically for extract with steeping grains. They list other options for partial mash and all grain with different amounts of ingredients.

 

[stpug]

In the section on brewing the recipes, Jamil indicates that the assumed efficiency for the grains is 70%. Since he is making the assumption that you'll get 70% efficiency from the grains during the steep (I.e. Mash) then you need to set beersmith to use partial mash because when at to 'extract' it doesn't really account for the potential sugars from the grain.

I hope this helps. Phone typing is no fun

 

[thehopbandit]

In the section on brewing the recipes, Jamil indicates that the assumed efficiency for the grains is 70%. Since he is making the assumption that you'll get 70% efficiency from the grains during the steep (I.e. Mash) then you need to set beersmith to use partial mash because when at to 'extract' it doesn't really account for the potential sugars from the grain.

I hope this helps. Phone typing is no fun

Interesting. I wonder why there is the difference in treatment by Jamil in BCS and by BeerSmith? Beersmith accounts for very nominal increases in OG due to steeping grain, while Jamil assumes that the steeping grain will (roughly) yield similar results to mashing (70%). Which is closer to reality?

In the past, I have entered in extract recipes from kits I have purchased using the extract (not partial mash) setting and they seem to be spot on with the OG. Using BCS logic, I should have seen a much higher OG as a result of the steeping grains. That's why I am a little bit leery to go with the fact the BCS recipe assumes a MUCH higher yield from the steeping grains.

I understand the logic behind each, but it seems like to me that the way BeerSmith handles the calculation makes more sense than assuming the high steeping yield that BCS does.

I appreciate your help.

 

[chickypad]

Brewhouse efficiency calculates your yield after trub losses, bottling losses, etc. I don't like using it, it's hard to reproduce and not very intuitive to me. The problem is that Beersmith doesn't give you the option to directly set mash efficiency, so you have to tinker with the total efficiency until you get the right number. Instead I prefer to set trub loss as zero and the batch size as the post boil (and cooled) volume. Total efficiency (which you can set manually) will then equal mash efficiency - which is a much more reproducible number for me. There are descriptions of how to set up your profiles in the beersmith forums which walk through the different methods like using brewhouse efficiency vs. mash. Rather than trying to get all your numbers to exactly match BCS, I would set up the profile for your system then just use the percentages in the recipe to determine the actual amounts. You're not going to hit the BCS numbers anyway unless that is really what you get on your system (do you boil off exactly 1 gal per hr, for example?). The same will be true for any recipe you use - you will always have to adjust your numbers a bit for your system.

With regard to the steeping yield, if you go by Palmer's chart Beersmith's estimate does look pretty low (default is 30%). Per HTB the yield from steeping dark roasted grains is about the same as mashing. Seems like something you might need to adjust depending on the grain.

 

[thehopbandit]

You're not going to hit the BCS numbers anyway unless that is really what you get on your system (do you boil off exactly 1 gal per hr, for example?). The same will be true for any recipe you use - you will always have to adjust your numbers a bit for your system.



With regard to the steeping yield, if you go by Palmer's chart Beersmith's estimate does look pretty low (default is 30%). Per HTB the yield from steeping dark roasted grains is about the same as mashing. Seems like something you might need to adjust depending on the grain.

Definitely all good points. I just mainly wanted to get a place where I could be able to reproduce the BCS numbers in BeerSmith to gain a better understanding of how the software's calculations work. Then I was going to try the built in recipe scaling/conversion. Doing the recipe in practice will most likely differ.

The biggest thing I just found odd was the disparity in how each treats steeping grain. One assumes very little extraction and the other quite a bit. It seems like one would be closer to reality than the other. To me it just seems like you aren't going to get the extraction that BCS is stating with extract and steeping. It seems like you would way undershoot the gravity. In the past, I have seen first hand that steeping does not yield that much sugar extraction. But I guess the only way is to try...

It would be great to see what kind of OG people were getting with brewing this example recipe exactly according to the recipe.

I realize that these numbers are not the end all for a good beer whatsoever. I am just fascinated by the science and calculations behind it, so I am trying to determine the differences in philosophies.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[chickypad]

So it seems Jamil uses a flat 70%, BS a flat 30%, and HTB lists a pretty wide range of yield from 12% for carapils to 84% for roasted barley and black. The crystals are in the 40-50's range, which I would think would be the predominant steeping malt in the average extract recipe. Maybe makes more sense to set the average to around 50%. Either way I would think it would usually only amount to a couple gravity pts difference for the whole batch, but because this recipe has over 30% specialty malts it's throwing it off. In particular almost 10% is flaked oats, which I don't think will give you any yield steeping. To keep track for future calculations I suppose you could check gravities on your steeped wort as long as you have an accurate way to measure volume.

 

[stpug]

I'm in agreement that the BCS recipes are hard to reproduce very accurately in BeerSmith. There was a post a couple weeks ago on the exact same subject and when I was playing with book-to-BeerSmith matching I was having a hard time without making weird adjustments in BS that I didn't like. I honestly don't know the most appropriate way of implementing JZ's recipes in BeerSmith without using a little base malt and mashing the specialty grains. If you do that, your numbers will likely work out very close - but, of course, the book doesn't call for any base . In the case of McQuakers Stout (~4 lbs grain), you would want to use ~2 lbs base malt and I would opt for Maris Otter since it matches the beer style really well.

My recommendation would be to use enough base malt to mash your steeping grains, and mash them at 155F in an appropriate amount of water. The advantages of this method is that you'll be prepping yourself for full batch all grain brews; you'll get to learn a bit more about the beer brewing process; you'll get some of your wort sugars from the actual grain which is great for yeast health; you'll utilize the grain to a much greater extent than simply steeping; and you'll feel great about having done a partial mash and how easy it was (which will invariably lead you down the rabbit hole of all grain brewing and equipment costs ). The disadvantages to this is that you'll have to pay attention to a couple things you normally might not have.

I still go back to my first post which was to use the book as guidelines and adjust to match your system. If you typically find very low sugar extraction from steeping grains (which is very possible) then simply add some DME to make up the missing gravity. Steep your grains, fill pot to full boil, add your prescribed amount of LME, check preboil gravity. If it's correct, then continue as normal. If it's low, add enough DME to make up the missing preboil gravity points AND THEN continue as normal.

 

[thehopbandit]

Thanks for the advice and discussion! The main problem I had with this all, is that it just seems like BCS is somewhat misleading. For a new extract brewer, they might try out this recipe and not get anywhere close to the OG if they go straight extract/steeping grain. When you dial down to the numbers, which I am interested, you see the issue. But those who just pick up the book and go, it seems like they would run into some issues. All steeping I have done with 10+ extract batches have added very little gravity to the wort. I don't feel that it is a thing unique to my "brewery" either, it's just the nature of steeping.

It was just more interesting to me how BCS treats it. I'll have to give it a go and see which is more "correct".

 

[chickypad]

Thanks for the advice and discussion! The main problem I had with this all, is that it just seems like BCS is somewhat misleading. For a new extract brewer, they might try out this recipe and not get anywhere close to the OG if they go straight extract/steeping grain. When you dial down to the numbers, which I am interested, you see the issue. But those who just pick up the book and go, it seems like they would run into some issues. All steeping I have down with many extract batches have added very little gravity to the wort. I don't feel that it is a thing unique to my "brewery" either, it's just the nature of steeping.

It was just more interesting to me how BCS treats it. I'll have to give it a go and see which is more "correct".

I think you are right. I've brewed a lot of those recipes and never thought twice about the calculations, but doing all grain where I expect my numbers to be different anyway based on efficiency. I don't have the book in front of me but wonder how many of the recipes Jamil actually brewed as extract - does he say? The differences in calculations are certainly magnified with this particular recipe - I agree with stpug this is one you probably should consider partial mashing.

 

[thehopbandit]

I think you are right. I've brewed a lot of those recipes and never thought twice about the calculations, but doing all grain where I expect my numbers to be different anyway based on efficiency. I don't have the book in front of me but wonder how many of the recipes Jamil actually brewed as extract - does he say? The differences in calculations are certainly magnified with this particular recipe - I agree with stpug this is one you probably should consider partial mashing.

Definitely. I am more than willing to partial mash, or even go all grain. To me, the calculations in the book make a lot more sense for those methods of brewing. They seem to be pretty close. Extract....not so much. I just wonder how many people new to brewing have tried that and have wondered "Wow, what did I do wrong where I missed my OG so much?".

I'm willing to bet many of those recipes were not actually brewed with extract but, instead, loosely converted.

Oh well, it's still a great resource! I just wish they addressed that. Regardless, it's great to have others (like in this thread) out there who are willing to dig into the calculations!

Thanks!

 

[thehopbandit]

Just thought I would report back with my findings.

I brewed up this batch (with a few slight tweaks) this weekend. The OG was practically spot on using the BeerSmith calculations. If I would have used the proportions in BCS, I would have been way off on the OG.

I kept the steeping grains roughly the same proportions and upped the extract to match.

BCS doesn't seem to take this into consideration. If you were to do a partial mash, I would bet that you would be pretty close. However, the steeping grains will not give you anywhere close to what BCS is saying for this recipe. That's unfortunately probably misleading to a lot of (new) brewers.

From here on out, I'll input the BCS recipes into BeerSmith using the rough proportional percentages to get something workable.

 

[DSmith]

Did you listen to the Jamil Show for that style? I think partial mashing is discussed for extract brewers better than the book for this recipe. Those podcasts and the book go hand- in-hand, and you learn their format of the show and how to fast forward to the recipe specifics.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[thehopbandit]

Did you listen to the Jamil Show for that style? I think partial mashing is discussed for extract brewers better than the book for this recipe. Those podcasts and the book go hand- in-hand, and you learn their format of the show and how to fast forward to the recipe specifics.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I did not listen to that in conjunction with the recipe, but I will check them out in the future. I most definitely think partial mash would be the way to go if not doing all-grain on this one. It may have been prudent for them to include that recommendation. In any light, I'm sure it'll be great!

 

[balrog]

thehopbandit, I'm running into EXACTLY the same issue with BeerSmith vs LHBS recipes; differences between OG. In my case, the LHBS OG were what I observed, and the BS 'extract' recipes much lower--for MOST recipes but not all. In your recent findings, are you saying that BeerSmith set to "Extract" type matched your observed OG?

 

[thehopbandit]

thehopbandit, I'm running into EXACTLY the same issue with BeerSmith vs LHBS recipes; differences between OG. In my case, the LHBS OG were what I observed, and the BS 'extract' recipes much lower--for MOST recipes but not all. In your recent findings, are you saying that BeerSmith set to "Extract" type matched your observed OG?

Yep! Basically what I have found is that Beersmith seems to be right on as far is OG is concerned. This is, of course, if your equipment profile is properly dialed in. BCS was basically assuming roughly 10-14 gravity points coming from steeping grains which is just unrealistic. BeerSmith correctly calculated roughly 3 points which is what I found to be true.

 

[ajf]

Interesting. I wonder why there is the difference in treatment by Jamil in BCS and by BeerSmith? Beersmith accounts for very nominal increases in OG due to steeping grain, while Jamil assumes that the steeping grain will (roughly) yield similar results to mashing (70%). Which is closer to reality?

In the past, I have entered in extract recipes from kits I have purchased using the extract (not partial mash) setting and they seem to be spot on with the OG. Using BCS logic, I should have seen a much higher OG as a result of the steeping grains. That's why I am a little bit leery to go with the fact the BCS recipe assumes a MUCH higher yield from the steeping grains.

I understand the logic behind each, but it seems like to me that the way BeerSmith handles the calculation makes more sense than assuming the high steeping yield that BCS does.

I appreciate your help.

To understand where the discrepancy comes from, it is necessary to understand how brewing software such as Beersmith and Promash estimates the OG, and how the OG estimates were derived in BCS.
When doing all grain recipes, you need to specify a conversion efficiency percentage, which indicates what percentage of the potential sugars can be extracted from the grains during the mash/lauter process. The software multiplies the maximum theoretical extraction from the grains by this percentage to estimate the pre-boil gravity.
The conversion factor is only used for grains. If you add extract or sugar, they are treated as 100% convertible as all conversion (if any) has already been performed.
Using Beersmith or Promash, you can make a recipe using only extract and optionally sugar, and the predicted OG will not change if you select extract, partial mash, or all grain; even if you specify different conversion efficiencies for partial mash and all grain. (You cannot specify an efficiency for extract.)
If you use either program to make a recipe using only grains (either base grains or specialty grains) and specify partial mash or all grain, then the predicted OG will change in proportion to the efficiency. This is not completely correct, as if you make a recipe using only specialty grains, there will be no enzymes to convert the starches to sugars, but the software assumes that you know what you are doing, and you have specified the conversion efficiency.
If you make a recipe that contains both extract and specialty grains, and specify a conversion efficiency, then the software will convert the extract at 100% and the grains at the specified efficiency. Although most homebrewers would consider this to be an extract brew, the software considers it to be a partial mash, as with extract there is no way to specify the efficiency.
The help system in Promash has an entry under the heading "Extract Recipies with steeped grain". It explains that you should select Partial Mash as the brew type and goes on to say that you need to change the efficiency rating to account for steeping grains as opposed to mashing. It suggests that 30% is a good average number for this.
My version of Beersmith (version 1.4) does not give any help on this topic, but you can do this. It will give different results to using Beersmith to develop an extract recipe. If, using Beersmith, you develop the recipe as extract, then it automatically sets the efficiency rating to 15%. (Promash leaves the efficiency rating at whatever it was set to for all grain.)
BCS. explains that the recipes assumes an efficiency rating of 70%, which I know is unreasonable for steeping grains, although it is acceptable for an all grain recipe.
I must admit that I don't know whether the Promash suggestion of 30% or the Beersmith assumption of 15% is more reasonable, but 70% is way out of range.

Hope this helps

-a.

 

[missiletech]

*Holy Priest Casts::Resurrection!* Where does brewersfriend fit into all this?