Lagering without first racking to a secondary?

[Silver_Is_Money]

For ales I have stopped racking to a secondary. Can this same practice be extended to Pilsners and lagers? Can I ferment, raise the temperature for a diacetyl rest, and then lower the temperature to 34 - 38 degrees F. to bulk lager for 4 to 6 weeks, without ever racking?

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I am not an expert, but at first glance such a practice would seem self-defeating. I would say that there's a difference between sitting on the yeast for a couple-three weeks, and sitting on it for months.

 

[flars]

This is a good thread that should help you decide which way to go.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=541903

 

[SteveHeff]

I lagered in my keg after 3 weeks in the primary. I reached my terminal gravity and transferred to keg. After 10 days, I gave it a rest at 60F for about 4 days before tossing it back into the chill chest at 50F for another week. My gravity was happy where it was and I transferred and have been dropping temp on it 1-2 degrees a day for the last week. So far, so good.

 

[Jimbodaman]

I've unintentionally done what you describe before, and it came out just fine. Very slightly more hazy than the other 5 gallons which was xfered to secondary but hardly noticeable. Unless you're entering it into a competition it's, in my experience, exactly the same.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I thank each of you who posted above.

My current batch (nominally a Bohemian Pilsner) will be bottled and shared only among family and a small group of friends. In the spirit of experimentation I believe that I will leave it in the primary straight through the lagering step. My Fermonster has been modified to include a discharge valve, and if I add priming sugar directly to my bottles (as I have done several times now via utilizing 'Domino Dots') I can bottle directly off of the primary. This method seems to minimize the potential for inducing any level of detrimental oxidation due to multiple rackings.

 

[LarMoeCur]

To me lagering is not step in fermentation. You are cold ageing the beer after fermentation is complete. If the beer was properly aerated and enough yeast was pitched. The beer should be done in 3 weeks no problem. During this 3 weeks you can bump the temp for a diacetyl rest or not. I do not. Pitch the correct amount of yeast and there is no need for a rest they clean up nicely after themselves. Rack off the yeast into a keg and then lagger. I think ageing a beer on the large yeast cake could impart some unwanted flavors. Why leave the beer on the yeast it's already served it's purpose and nothing good can come from leaving it there for 6 or more weeks.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

To me lagering is not step in fermentation. You are cold ageing the beer after fermentation is complete. If the beer was properly aerated and enough yeast was pitched. The beer should be done in 3 weeks no problem. During this 3 weeks you can bump the temp for a diacetyl rest or not. I do not. Pitch the correct amount of yeast and there is no need for a rest they clean up nicely after themselves. Rack off the yeast into a keg and then lager. I think ageing a beer on the large yeast cake could impart some unwanted flavors. Why leave the beer on the yeast it's already served it's purpose and nothing good can come from leaving it there for 6 or more weeks.

I will be bottling. I'm now thinking of confining the lagering to only 4 weeks. Perhaps I will break down and rack it into a 6 gallon glass carboy first rather than let it sit on the yeast cake for an additional 4 weeks. I'm still undecided here.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

I thank each of you who posted above.

My current batch (nominally a Bohemian Pilsner) will be bottled and shared only among family and a small group of friends. In the spirit of experimentation I believe that I will leave it in the primary straight through the lagering step. My Fermonster has been modified to include a discharge valve, and if I add priming sugar directly to my bottles (as I have done several times now via utilizing 'Domino Dots') I can bottle directly off of the primary. This method seems to minimize the potential for inducing any level of detrimental oxidation due to multiple rackings.

I have never understood the logic behind not racking off to a secondary. The notion that the brief exposure to any O2 is highly overrated. You risk more issues by leaving all the trub and dead yeast cells in your beer. When yeast cells breakdown you run the risk of producing phenols. Leaving on excess hop material can also leave off flavors. Note I said "can leave". Skipping the secondary is cutting a corner. If you want to skip using a secondary vessel, use something that you can dump the trub from as in a variation of a conical. You are talking about the difference between a good beer or a better one.

 

[madscientist451]

I've let it sit on the yeast cake for months with no problems. Your results may vary, depending what yeast your are using and several other factors. I'm thinking the next pils I do, I'll run two fermenters, rack one off and leave one on the yeast and see if I can notice a difference.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I've let it sit on the yeast cake for months with no problems. Your results may vary, depending what yeast your are using and several other factors. I'm thinking the next pils I do, I'll run two fermenters, rack one off and leave one on the yeast and see if I can notice a difference.

Good to hear this! My yeast is W-34/70. I just started ramping up to do a 64 degree F. diacetyl rest. Would you recommend that after a few days at 64 degrees I simply take it down to about 34 degrees F. and hold it there for 4 weeks without first racking?

 

[LarMoeCur]

The whole reason you lager a beer is to make a light, crisp, tasting beer. If you've ever tasted yeast or beer with a lot of yeast in it...light and crisp doesn't come to mind. Leaving the beer exposed to a large yeast cake kind of defeating the purpose of lager process.

I do agree that short periods of time on the yeast will not make a difference. How long or short that period is can only be predicted by that batches yeast health. Nice healthy yeast 5 to 6 weeks you I think you are fine. Even if you are racking to secondary some yeast is still getting transferred.
I'm just not willing to risk leaving an entire batch of beer on top of a large yeast cake guessing it's longevity. So, I primary to completion, rack into a keg, then lager.

The home brewers that are winning lots awards every year. Rack off the yeast before lagering.

BYO Magaizines 10 keys to great lagers.
7. Use a two-stage method of fermentation.

Even with a hard boil and the use of fining agents, protein trub will still make it into the fermenter. Racking a beer from a primary fermenter into a secondary fermenter or lagering vessel eliminates this additional protein. It also removes the yeast sediment, which can result in yeasty characters and off-flavors if it is left in contact with the beer.

With a healthy fermentation, an adequate volume of yeast for conditioning remains in suspension within the beer even after the sediment is removed. Most lagers really develop their clean, finished character through an extended conditioning period of several weeks at temperatures on the low end of the yeast strain’s performance range. Racking into a secondary fermenter allows this process to take place without creating any off-flavors or aromas.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What about bottle lagering after carbonation. Does that generally work as well as bulk lagering? I can go straight to the bottles directly from my primary.

 

[madscientist451]

. Would you recommend that after a few days at 64 degrees I simply take it down to about 34 degrees F. and hold it there for 4 weeks without first racking?

Well, maybe not.
You need to check the gravity and see what you have when you ramp it up to 64 and then check it a few days later and see if anything changed. If the gravity HAS changed, you need to leave it for a few more days and see if it has changed again. Basically you want to wait for it to be done before cold crashing.
The recommended procedure is to rack the beer off the yeast, so I'm not going against that, but I AM saying that I've just left it in primary, cold crashed it and left in the fridge for months waiting to rack to a keg, and haven't noticed any problems. Your results may be different, and if you don't want to experiment, I'd go ahead and rack it to another container for lagering.
I've also lagered in bulk, (for a few weeks) then bottled, let it sit in a warm environment for 2 weeks to carb up, then lagered the bottled beer for another 4 weeks.