Lager without all lager things?

[mChavez]

Hi!

Just wondering what will happen if you take all the "lager" elements out of lager. I.e. follow a lager recipe but use ale yeast (koelsch would be best I assume?), ferment at ale temperatures and drink after 3 weeks primary & 3 weeks in a bottle instead of lagering?

Thank you!

Chavez.

 

[GrogNerd]

I did a Maibock earlier based on Jamil's recipe, but used WLP060, turned out great. entered into brew club competition and, though it didn't place in top 3 (of 6), it did get good reviews. brew club president remarked that it was a great example of the style, 2 people said it was better than the calibration beer (Gordon Biersch Maibock) and no one caught on that it was an ale.

trick was fermenting at the low end, around 60-62°, much lower than what was listed as optimum for the yeast strain (68-72°). it also attenuated a little more, not sure what caused that, but estimated FG for the recipe was 1.015 and it ended up at 1.010

on the other hand, I stopped in a local brew pub (Vintage 50, Leesburg, VA) and their Maibock was much better than mine.

 

[unionrdr]

Well,kolsh yeast are generally lager yeast with lager temps...save for one I found. White Lab's WL029 German ale/kolsh yeast is a hybrid of ale & regular kolsh yeast. Midwest says it's from a small brewpub in Cologne,Germany,so it's def the "real thing". Gave a lager-like crispness to the light & dark versions of some PM beers I've been working on. But the best part is this yeast's ideal ferment temp range is 65-69F! That put it in a range I could work with in colder months to brew it. Hopped & Confused & Twilight Delight,respectively. I've discussed them in some threads the last month or two. Gave the recipe for the light one in one thread.
Anyway,I didn't bulk lager either one,figuring by the time the bottles carbed & conditioned 3-6 weeks & fridged at least a week,it might give the same results. So far,I've found that the lighter colored on could def have used some lagering to get more even flavor from bottle to bottle. For some reason,the dark one wasn't effected very much in this regard. I'm thinking now that this WL029 yeast might be good for brewing a hybrid IPL...

 

[mChavez]

Thanks!

 

[Denny]

True kolsch yeast is an ale yeast, not a lager yeast. In addition, it has a distinctive flavor not appropriate for lagers. You'd be better of woth a clean ale yeast like WY1007, 1056, or even US05.

 

[unionrdr]

Well,I looked again just to make sure I didn't forget something. Only the WL029 yeast is listed under liquid ale yeasts at midwest. Rather odd that all other kolsh yeast are listed under liquid lager yeasts. I see some have higher possible ferment temps for producing what some are describing as being pseudo lagers. so they're not ale yeasts,but rather lager yeasts with higher possible ferment temps it would seem. Interesting that WL029 is the only obne listed under both ale & lager yeasts. So it's weird to me. But US-05 & the like,in my opinion,don't produce quite the same flavor as the WL029 does. Close,but not quite.

 

[Denny]

Well,I looked again just to make sure I didn't forget something. Only the WL029 yeast is listed under liquid ale yeasts at midwest. Rather odd that all other kolsh yeast are listed under liquid lager yeasts. I see some have higher possible ferment temps for producing what some are describing as being pseudo lagers. so they're not ale yeasts,but rather lager yeasts with higher possible ferment temps it would seem. Interesting that WL029 is the only obne listed under both ale & lager yeasts. So it's weird to me. But US-05 & the like,in my opinion,don't produce quite the same flavor as the WL029 does. Close,but not quite.

Go to the source. Here's White's listing of lager yeasts. I don't see kolsch...

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew/listings?style=4

Could you point out a kolsch yeast listed as a lager yeast? I'd like to do some research.

 

[unionrdr]

Sure,here's midwest,the liquid lager page; http://www.midwestsupplies.com/homebrewing-ingredients/beer-yeast/lager.html?p=1 & then the particular kolsh on the page; http://www.midwestsupplies.com/kolsch-activator-wyeast-act2565-4-25-oz.html
And the one I used,listed under lager & ale liquid yeasts; http://www.midwestsupplies.com/white-labs-german-ale-kolsch-wl029-bundle.html
And another lager yeast that can take higher temps; http://www.midwestsupplies.com/california-lager-activator-wyeast-act2112-4-25-oz.html
And another White Labs lager yeast that goes into ale temp territory; http://www.midwestsupplies.com/white-labs-san-francisco-lager-yeast-wl810.html
Here's another German ale yeast that can produce lager characteristics; http://www.midwestsupplies.com/german-ale-activator-wyeast-act1007-4-25-oz.html,not listed as a kolsh though.
And the ale/kolsh yeast I used,as listed under liquid ale yeast; http://www.midwestsupplies.com/white-labs-german-ale-kolsch-wl029-bundle.html
I mostly do my searches out of what's commonly available At the couple places I buy from in this area of the country. if you can clarify some of this,it'd be great. Funny about kolsh vs ale vs lager though. Interesting that some yeasts cross over with regard to ferment temps...

 

[unionrdr]

Here's what I found at Northern Brewer,although they seem to be all lumped together-
Wyeast 2565 kolsh; http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brewing/brewing-ingredients/beer-yeast/wyeast-kolsch.html,said to be a hybrid od ale & lager yeast.
And once again,the WL029 yeast I used as they describe it; http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brewing/brewing-ingredients/beer-yeast/wl-german-ale-kolsch.html[/URLAnd the san francisco lager yeast with higher temp ability,but not listed as kolsh; [URL="http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brewing/brewing-ingredients/beer-yeast/wl-san-francisco-lager.html"]http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brewing/brewing-ingredients/beer-yeast/wl-san-francisco-lager.html
Here's a diffwerent one from Wyeast,kolshII,temp range 55-70F with lager characteristics at lower temps; http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/wyeast-kolsch-ii-vss-april-june-08.html
Some are duplicates,but slightly different/more information.

 

[Denny]

Temp range isn't what classifies a yeast as ale or lager...genetics do. I think Midwest is making up their own definitions. Wyeast lists 2565 as an ale yeast.....they should know! I've used 1007 a lot. It's a very clean ale yeast that works well a lower than normal ale temps. I generally run it around 50-55.

 

[unionrdr]

And from AHS under ale yeasts,White Labs;http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/wyeast-kolsch-ii-vss-april-june-08.html,the only kolsh listed under ale yeasts for WL.
None listed under lager yeasts,not even the WL029.
The 2565 wyeast,actualy listed under ale this time; http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_21_77_327_156&products_id=203&osCsid=6a514e53771a7a0a3eff3dd0b4530000
That's about it for AHS.

 

[Denny]

And from AHS under ale yeasts,White Labs;http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/wyeast-kolsch-ii-vss-april-june-08.html,the only kolsh listed under ale yeasts for WL.
None listed under lager yeasts,not even the WL029.
The 2565 wyeast,actualy listed under ale this time; http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_21_77_327_156&products_id=203&osCsid=6a514e53771a7a0a3eff3dd0b4530000
That's about it for AHS.

I'd really encourage you to go directly to the manufacturer's listing and ignore what stores say.

 

[unionrdr]

It's just one of those grey areas when talking hybrids. Which parent's qualities does it take after most? It just looks so far like they vary in "ideal" temp ranges,hence my comments. I'll take a look at that link...
**ok,well,the numbers match up nicely to what the supply sights say. But how they're listed is interesting. but the descriptions pretty well match up. It's just how the supply sites list them causes some wonderment. Maybe they (supply sites)go by characteristics more than official types?...

 

[Denny]

It's just one of those grey areas when talking hybrids. Which parent's qualities does it take after most? It just looks so far like they vary in "ideal" temp ranges,hence my comments. I'll take a look at that link...
**ok,well,the numbers match up nicely to what the supply sights say. But how they're listed is interesting. but the descriptions pretty well match up. It's just how the supply sites list them causes some wonderment. Maybe they (supply sites)go by characteristics more than official types?...

I'd hate to accuse a supply shop of ignorance, so I'll just say that I think they have their own ideas about things that may not always jive with reality. Is that kinda semi diplomatic?

 

[unionrdr]

Not really where I was going with that at all,but ok. It's just easy to see some work better at lager temps than others that work better at ale temps. But all get lager like results. Gee this is fun...

 

[Clonefan94]

Could you use Wyeast 2112 for the OP's dilemma? It's the California Lager yeast and they claim it works well in the low 60s and still retains lager characteristics. I've been wanting to give this yeast a try, but was leary because I don't know anyone who's used it.

 

[stvo]

Could you use Wyeast 2112 for the OP's dilemma? It's the California Lager yeast and they claim it works well in the low 60s and still retains lager characteristics. I've been wanting to give this yeast a try, but was leary because I don't know anyone who's used it.

I've used white labs WLP810 San Fransico Lager yeast in a Cal Common came out great! I left my carboy on the cement garage floor during Dec-Jan it stayed at 60-62 the whole time. One of my easiest ferments ever!

 

[Denny]

Could you use Wyeast 2112 for the OP's dilemma? It's the California Lager yeast and they claim it works well in the low 60s and still retains lager characteristics. I've been wanting to give this yeast a try, but was leary because I don't know anyone who's used it.

My experience is that yeast isn't as clean as WY1007 or 1056.

 

[mChavez]

Thanks for the info guys - perhaps a bit of information overload for a complete newbie , but I'll definitely try some of these yeasts for my new brews.