Lactic Acid Taste Threshold

[wobdee]

Is there a certain percentage or ml per gal estimate for lactic acid taste threshold? Thanks

 

[progmac]

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lactate_Taste_Threshold_experiment

/credit braukaiser

 

[Rev2010]

Is there a certain percentage or ml per gal estimate for lactic acid taste threshold? Thanks

Braukaiser did some experiments here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lactate_Taste_Threshold_experiment

Personally I've been using Lactic Acid 88% now over the past bunch of beers I've made and I haven't really detected it in the flavor for the mostpart but I have noticed a significant improvement in my beers. I tend to think it also might come down to the type of beer. For example, the only time I seemed to detect a bit of the lactic "tartness" on the back of my tongue was with my latest Amber Ale. It was very subtle, and perhaps it wasn't the lactic, but it seemed to taste like when people describe tasting lactic in their beers. I used a total of 4.35ml of lactic acid. However, I've not tasted this on any other beer I've used it in whatsoever. The highest amount I've used was in my IPA and that was 5.5ml and I didn't taste it at all, not in the slightest, the beer was great. I usually only use .5ml for the sparge water with the rest being in the mash.

Most recently I used lactic acid in my hefeweizen, which normally has a tart taste that I've been dealing with trying to eliminate, and the beer came out the best it's ever been. I did also use O2 aeration though which was also a first for my hefeweizen.

So, overall I don't think it's really detectable unless one uses noticeably too much. I personally wouldn't ever go past 5.5ml total for my 5 gallon batches. I've also been lessening the amount used a bit, trying to keep it under 4ml total where possible. So basically I only think I've ever noticed it once in close to 10 batches and it might not have actually been the lactic acid for all I know.


Rev.

 

[stpug]

While I don't necessarily agree with it (I think you can go higher), I recall the number being around 7 ml per 5 gallon batch but maybe I'm remembering things incorrectly.

 

[wobdee]

Thanks guys. I've been using 3ml in a Pils to bring my PH down to 5.4 but I want to go a bit lower around 5.2-5.3 so another ml shouldn't hurt.

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks guys. I've been using 3ml in a Pils to bring my PH down to 5.4 but I want to go a bit lower around 5.2-5.3 so another ml shouldn't hurt.

Around 3 mL of the 88% stuff should get you to around 5.4 for a mash of 90% malt like Weyermanns Pils depending on what else is in there assuming 3.5 gal mash water and 10 lbs malt but such a mash is going to have a buffering around -212 mEq/kg•pH so that dropping it another 0.1 pH is going to take about 21 mEq of acid. As 88% lactic is about 12 N that almost 2 mL more. Dropping it another 0.1 to 5.2 is going to take another 2 for a total of 7. That strikes me as quite a bit. More to the point: why do you want to go so low? 5.4 is, IMO, at the low end of where you want to be.

 

[wobdee]

Around 3 mL of the 88% stuff should get you to around 5.4 for a mash of 90% malt like Weyermanns Pils depending on what else is in there assuming 3.5 gal mash water and 10 lbs malt but such a mash is going to have a buffering around -212 mEq/kg•pH so that dropping it another 0.1 pH is going to take about 21 mEq of acid. As 88% lactic is about 12 N that almost 2 mL more. Dropping it another 0.1 to 5.2 is going to take another 2 for a total of 7. That strikes me as quite a bit. More to the point: why do you want to go so low? 5.4 is, IMO, at the low end of where you want to be.

Your right, I'm right at 5.4 for my Pils. Malt bill is mostly Best Pils with a touch of Munich and Carapils. I also add a small amount of calcium chloride to my very soft water. This is a 3 gallon BIAB batch and i mash in with 5 gallons of treated water.

The reason i want to lower my PH down to 5.2-5.3 is just recommendations I've read here and other forums that lighter beers benefit more in that range but that could be wrong, not sure.

According to Brewers Friend if add a total of 4ml of 88% lactic acid it will drop PH down to 5.27. 3ml gives me 5.4.

 

[ajdelange]

The reason i want to lower my PH down to 5.2-5.3 is just recommendations I've read here and other forums that lighter beers benefit more in that range but that could be wrong, not sure.

I seem to remember Kunze recommending that lagers be brewed with slightly higher pH's but I might remember that wrong. If you have brewed these beers at lower pH and find the results better than when they are brewed at higher pH then by all means shoot for lower. But I'll note that 5.3 at room temperature implies 5.05 or lower at mash pH. That just feels pretty low to me.

According to Brewers Friend if add a total of 4ml of 88% lactic acid it will drop PH down to 5.27. 3ml gives me 5.4.

You'll note that I spoke of a malt 'like Weyermanns'. I did that because that is a malt I have measurements on. I don't have measurements on Best pils so I can't say with certainty that you will get the same results per mL acid. I have to guess that Best pils will be similar to Weyermanns, IOW I have to guess. But then so does the program you are using because it is based on a model which (we hope) is at least based on malt mesurements by its creator, but not on the malt you are using. Don't put too much reliance on these programs.

 

[wobdee]

Thanks AJ, I'll have to research this PH thing a little more. My lagers taste pretty good as is mashing at an estimated 5.4 but I'm always looking to do better. I need a meter to verify Brewers Friend.

 

[progmac]

I was very precise about calculating my water pH and then eventually realized i was doing about 4mL of lactic in the mash for normal beer and about 7mL for strong beers, plus about 2mL in the sparge water.

Now I simply add 1 tsp of lactic for everything except very dark beers, which get 1/2 tsp or very strong beers, which get 1.5 tsp.