Lactic Acid Issues

[Brett Romer]

First off, Hello everyone!

I did scour the net and forums for solutions to this issue and came up empty handed before I’m scolded.

I recently started my second sour. The first came out amazing and I wanted to repeat it.

After mashing in I pitched my Lacto culture. The wait previously was around 2 to 2.5 days to reach a pH of 3.3 (wife likes um tart). This time it hung at 3.5. We’re talking giving it a full 7 days. I had read you could pitch lactic acid to the wort to reach your desired pH. The OG on my mash was 1.054.

I didn’t check my gravity before pitching the lacto, but reached my desired pH of 3.2.

To cut this as short as possible after boiling for 15 and racking to the ferm, my gravity read 1.008!!!!!!! WTH?

Anyone?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hi Brett, and welcome to HBT!

After mashing in I pitched my Lacto culture.

Could you walk us through your process with more details please? That way we can help discover ways to improve your process.

Yeast fermented your wort during the excessively long souring phase. Now you have non-alcoholic sour dextrin water (I don't think there's a name for that).
At this point I suggest adding table sugar or dextrose to get your s.g. back up to target and pitch your yeast.

Once I get the popcorn seasoning off my fingers I'll run through a couple good processes for making fast sours.

Cheers!

 

[Brett Romer]

Sorry,

Mashed in at 149 for 90 minutes. GRavity post mash was 1.054.

Cooled to 110 degrees and pitched Lacto Bacillus.

From there the temp was kept between 95 and 105 degrees to achieve proper pH.

It stayed in the fermenter for 7 days without pitching yeast. The boil was today and I would have pitched yeast today but not with that gravity.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The boil was today and I would have pitched yeast today but not with that gravity.

Do you still have it? You can save this batch as I mentioned.

 

[Dland]

How does it taste? could Lacto B have consumed all the sugars and made lactic acid? I think some strains can, I know little about sours, but did have a multi batch infection that did just this.

Taste of infected brew was somewhere between vomit and battery acid, oddly looked and almost smelled OK. Extra foam on krausen for that late in fermentation though..

This did take about 7 days also.

If brew tastes OK, then as they say "never mind" (the above horror story).

Edit; ....with a handle like Brett Romer one might wonder if someone was spoofing a bit, only second post and on the topic of intentional secondary beer infections...

 

[RPh_Guy]

could Lacto B have consumed all the sugars and made lactic acid?

No. Bacteria only consume a small percentage of the sugar and it doesn't drop the gravity significantly because lactic acid is dense.
This is definitely a yeast contamination.

 

[Brett Romer]

There wasn’t any yeast pitched. The only thing pitched was WLP677 Lactobacillus delbrueckii Bacteria

I still have the batch. The funk smell is there, the tart is there, but it’s as if the sugar completely fell out!

I might have added an ounce of Lactic Acid to drop the pH .2!

 

[Brett Romer]

I also don’t understand why my name is displayed! I dunno how I screwed that up! It’s been a day though. Only bright news for the day was kegging a graham cracker Porter! Absolutely delish!

 

[RPh_Guy]

The only thing pitched was WLP677 Lactobacillus delbrueckii Bacteria

Well there you have it. White Labs bacteria is pretty much always contaminated with yeast.

Add sugar and yeast as I suggested, it'll be fine.

 

[RPh_Guy]

There are three great processes for making Lacto sours:

1. The co-sour.
Mash as normal.
Boil as normal (optional). Do not add hops.
Chill as normal.
Transfer to fermenter.
Pitch both yeast and L plantarum.
Ferment at 65°F or higher.
Add hops after it sours (optional).
Package as normal.

2. The flavorful post-sour
To increase yeast expression: same as above except delay pitching the bacteria until 24-48 hours after the yeast. This is my preferred process.

3. The ubiquitous pre-sour (AKA kettle sour)
Mash as normal.
Boil 10 minutes. (optional)
Chill under 100°F
Add lactic acid to reach pH 4.0-4.5. (optional)
Pitch L plantarum.
Cover kettle.
Allow temperature to fall, but maintain above 70°F.
Wait 24-72 hours.
Hope nothing contaminates it (monitor s.g.).
Test pH (optional)
When sufficiently sour, stir and then boil 50 minutes, adding hops if desired.
Chill as normal.
Transfer to fermenter.
Pitch yeast. Consider increased pitching rate.
Allow to ferment and package as normal.

Cheers

 

[Brett Romer]

Well there you have it. White Labs bacteria is pretty much always contaminated with yeast.

Add sugar and yeast as I suggested, it'll be fine.

Alright, added enough table sugar to bump the OG to 1.042....Hopefully get under 1.012 for a respectable ABV for the style. I usually aim for the “fun zone.”

Wouldn’t there be a conversion to alcohol? I get no alcohol on taste.....

If you saved it, I will gladly report back. Currently the funk smell is there, but the sugar killed the tart for now.

What is the recommendation for Lacto bacteria. I didn’t have this issue last time, and we’re trying to lock in a solid yeast strain. We aren’t currently yeast washing. We’ve used White Labs and Imperial. The white rips through fermentation for us. Even surpassing the extra billion that imperial throws in.

Thanks again.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Wouldn’t there be a conversion to alcohol? I get no alcohol on taste.....

You boiled away the alcohol.
That's why we added sugar to ferment.

Alright, added enough table sugar to bump the OG to 1.042....Hopefully get under 1.012 for a respectable ABV for the style. I usually aim for the “fun zone.”

If my math and assumptions are correct (I could be way off), it'll finish about 1.001. Around 5.5% ABV.

What is the recommendation for Lacto bacteria.

See my post above, Lactobacillus plantarum is by far the best for fast souring.
Swanson's capsules, GoodBelly liquid, Renew Life Ultimate Flora capsules, Omega 605, The Yeast Bay Lacto Blend, etc.

We aren’t currently yeast washing. We’ve used White Labs and Imperial. The white rips through fermentation for us. Even surpassing the extra billion that imperial throws in.

Yeast washing/rinsing generally isn't necessary or recommended.
I have no problem with White Labs' yeast products, but their bacteria are straight garbage. It's contaminated pretty much every time and it's bad at souring.

Cheers