Kottbusser - A style deserving of revival!

[Psylocide]

In reading Barley-Bob's description, I'm quite certain union's probably picked up an infection. Could have been your bottling bucket? I wouldn't use that any more.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6774195&postcount=216

Interesting read nonetheless.

 

[hunter_le five]

I'd be real surprised if the 4 oz of acid malt made any sort of noticeable flavor contribution.

I use 3-5 ounces of acid malt in every batch for mash pH adjustments without affecting the flavor or aroma.

 

[beergolf]

I'd be real surprised if the 4 oz of acid malt made any sort of noticeable flavor contribution.

I use 3-5 ounces of acid malt in every batch for mash pH adjustments without affecting the flavor or aroma.

Exactly. a few oz of acid malt is just to adjust mash pH. I also use it in almost every brew to get pH where it should be. No flavor difference using a few oz.

 

[Gavin C]

Exactly. a few oz of acid malt is just to adjust mash pH. I also use it in almost every brew to get pH where it should be. No flavor difference using a few oz.

As do I. Amounts like this are by and large not detectable. I suppose some super-tasters may be able to pick it out but not I, that's for sure.

Kai has done some interesting examination of this very topic. At higher levels (over10%) tasters were not able to pick it out.

 

[Barley_Bob]

If that's the case, it was one hell of a lucky infection. Turned into a really nice, if surprising, beer! Thanks for chiming in on that, guys. I suppose once in a great while chance really does turn out in your favor.

 

[unionrdr]

There was no visible infection in the bottling bucket or primary. As of now the flavor that gives that tartness is going away, so it's definitely not infected. some kind of yeast ester mixing with flavors from the beer?...

 

[Barley_Bob]

It would be interesting to hear from some of our resident experts on sours. I did a berliner last year and did a three way split. One of the three was not as good, but a year later had become much more palatable. I don't really know how I'd describe the change, but it certainly was different. Someone on here can help.

 

[unionrdr]

Well, like i found with mine, the malts used, the process with adding the honey & molasses had something to do with the tart quality. It's becoming smoother with age. Still there, but to a lesser degree. A soured beer wouldn't do that. I gotta get some more ingredients for a few batches Tuesday on retiree pay day. Then I'll brew it the same way again & see what happens. It could well be a part of my process versus ambient conditions?...

 

[unionrdr]

Well, I was watching this video on Youtube, & the answer may be @ 1:08:00 or so...

Specifically, the yeast may've been stressed. I brewed this beer & fermented it starting 2/11/15. I made a starter for the WL029 kolsch yeast in 800ml spring water with .17lb pilsner LME @ 85.1F. Developed a finger of krausen the next morning. Cold crashed 2/5/15. Mashed 7 1/2lbs of grains in 2 1/2 gallons spring water @ 154F. Batch sparged 10 minutes with stirring @ 168F.
Having said all that, it was a hard winter & I had trouble getting the fermenting wort much over 63-64F. The range for WL029 is 65-69F. So the yeast was cold stressed till I could warm the fermenter, which produces certain phenols that could be responsible for the tartness. Obviously, in a good way. Something to consider next time.

 

[Barley_Bob]

A rebrew is the only way to know, I guess. But it'll be hard to replicate.

 

[unionrdr]

Unless I had some good temp control to cold stress the yeast again for 5 or 7 days. I'm beginning to think that's it.

 

[bhchrist]

Specifically, the yeast may've been stressed. I brewed this beer & fermented it starting 2/11/15. I made a starter for the WL029 kolsch yeast in 800ml spring water with .17lb pilsner LME @ 85.1F. Developed a finger of krausen the next morning. Cold crashed 2/5/15. Mashed 7 1/2lbs of grains in 2 1/2 gallons spring water @ 154F. Batch sparged 10 minutes with stirring @ 168F.
Having said all that, it was a hard winter & I had trouble getting the fermenting wort much over 63-64F. The range for WL029 is 65-69F. So the yeast was cold stressed till I could warm the fermenter, which produces certain phenols that could be responsible for the tartness. Obviously, in a good way. Something to consider next time.

That could very well be. I think my starter was closer to 2000 mL. The temperature range for 029 is well below 65F, as I ferment at around 59-60F, though as you point out, I am providing a good amount of yeast.

One thing I have started to do with my starters is on brew day, is I decant off the starter wort from the yeast. I then collect 500 mL or so of my wort, do a stove boil for 15 minutes, cool it down to 70F and add it to the yeast on the stir plate. By the time I am ready to pitch my yeast into the carboy, I have a vigorous fermentation going with a nice krausen that goes straight in.

Probably why I had boom goes the Kotty, but I am sold on the technique after a half a dozen batches.

 

[unionrdr]

The temp can go a bit below 65F, but the ideal range in the PDF is 65-69F as listed. The large amount of yeast would do better at lower temps though. But the tartness & my pitch size seems the likeliest culprit.

 

[JPrather]

Finally stopped pushing this back on my "to brew" list and will be picking up ingredients tomorrow. A couple questions for those who have made this:

1) Any thoughts on late hop additions? It seems that there's not much standard on this. I don't mind a little noble hop flavor/aroma in my beers.

2) Barley Bob, did the version you brewed end up being with rye or did you end up brewing without it? I want to brew the original recipe before I tinker, but man I want to toss a bit of rye in this recipe so badly...

 

[unionrdr]

I used .65oz magnum @ 60 for bittering, & .60 oz hallertauer @ 3 minutes. That seems to be what hop was used, due to the beer allegedly coming from that region of Germany. But it seems to me that German tradition hops could also be used, as they grew wild in those days & were commonly used. Gettin' about time to brew some more myself.

 

[JPrather]

I used .65oz magnum @ 60 for bittering, & .60 oz hallertauer @ 3 minutes. That seems to be what hop was used, due to the beer allegedly coming from that region of Germany. But it seems to me that German tradition hops could also be used, as they grew wild in those days & were commonly used. Gettin' about time to brew some more myself.

Well, German Tradition hops are a recent invention (1991), so I'm not sure about that. I've seen Spalt thrown around as a hop for this.

I was mostly just trying to figure out whether or not to even use a late hop edition. The original literature seems to point to some kind of hop extraction method, so it's hard to know what would be authentic here.

But I mostly just want to make good beer and am not sure if I want a late addition here .

 

[unionrdr]

For some reason, some file links are missing. Gotta find'em again?...

 

[myerstyson]

Drinking my second version of Kotbusser right now. Only change from the Zymurgy recipe (extract) this time was that I primed with honey. Holy crap is it good. I'll make this once or twice a year.

 

[unionrdr]

After some searching to replace links lost in a hd crash some months ago, I found the hops, according to one source, to be tettnang & hallertau. I think I gave my recipe someplace in this thread?

 

[JPrather]

Currently mashing at the moment. I think I'm going to use some Santiam I have laying around and toss some of it in at 10 minutes for a pinch of flavor.

I'll be using a 1007 slurry and putting my honey in the primary. Looking forward to this brew!

 

[bhchrist]

Kotty Batch 3 is now kegged and on CO2. Finished at 1.009 and the sample tasted great. A 6+ week lager on this one, as I was waiting for space to clear in the tapper fridge. Pretty doggone clear. It will be nice to have my house brew back on tap again.

 

[unionrdr]

I need to make some more. I drank the last two last night.

 

[JPrather]

Cold Crashing mine now. Finished at about 1.010. Added a few ounces of Honey in primary. Samples taste really interesting, looking forward to it .

 

[unionrdr]

Finally got a comparison video uploaded between mine & the bottle Barley_Bob sent me...

 

[beergolf]

Wow ... You definitely have an infection for it to do that during a pour. aLso your description of tartness like a saison indicates an infection. The recipe should not taste tart.

I got the priming solution cooling now. 4.04 ounces of dextrose to make 2.4 Vco2

That much priming sugar would never make a gusher like that.

Of course two posts up you mention..

I need to make some more. I drank the last two last night.

So what did you use for the video?

I also like the "It smells darker".

What does darker smell like?

 

[unionrdr]

That was a bottle I left in the back of the fridge, along with Bob's. They sat there for a good couple months when my other camera went south. By "darker", I mean like dark fruits, dark sugars...just a nondescript dark aroma. And we did discus the infection/tart thing some time ago. I thought it could've been the temp fluctuations at the time of year I fermented it. Actually stalled a bit, then started up again. No outward signs of infection at all. Not even a lil bit. It did make for a unique beer, though. I need to get another batch going, after the mumme' & Burton barleywine. That way, I'll see if it gets cleaner this time, or?...
And as I mentioned in the video, during my research, one site posted about it's being a sour beer, & was surprised nobody got it? I'm also getting more gushers with other batches lately, so it's time for the ol' soak-n-scrub once more for the bottles.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Finally got a comparison video uploaded between mine & the bottle Barley_Bob sent me...

Oh man! I cant wait to watch this!

I was thinking about Kottbusser the other day. My WLP029 yeast got bacteria in it in the fridge and spoiled. So sad. So I was thinking about doing one with the 036 I have (after I make another alt with it).

 

[unionrdr]

I hope you like my descriptions, even though they're no where near as good as yours. You're description of mine was like that of a BJCP judge! Maybe I do need to take some classes? I'm going to try & duplicate the way the beer came out that first time in the near future. If it comes out more like yours, I'll know then that something was amiss as beergolf suggests. The weather was funky at that point, & was hard to keep the ferment temp above 63F or so. I thought maybe that temp slowing it down a bit might've allowed that bit of souring to take hold?
Plus, that particular bottle had to be a gusher sort of thing. It didn't burst out of the bottle, but all that foam was a surprise. That's the reason I'm draining/rinsing them before going into a bucket of PBW for an hour or so. Then scrub with the bottle brush & onto the tree to dry before storage. So far, every single one is coming out slick as a hound's tooth. No spots or anything. I gotta get more prompt with my bottle cleaning.

 

[bhchrist]

I have not gotten any sour/tart characteristics in the three batches I have brewed. The modification I will make to my next batch is increasing the hopping a bit based on some feedback from entering the beer into a competition. Positive feedback from experienced and well accredited judges including a professional brewer. The common thread was the lack of hop balance, even for a malt forward beer. One comment that stuck out was there was an unfermented wort character to it, which I don't disagree with.

I won't up it by much. It is not intended to be a pils, after all, but I think I have been on the lower end, especially the last batch. I will shoot for the 25-30 range next brew.

Did you all see the info on AHA with the Grimm Brothers recipe and their discussion/hints on brewing a Kottbusser? I had missed that Snow Drop earned a Bronze at GABF.

Recipe Link

6 Tips Link

 

[unionrdr]

I read it at one point, but it's been a few months. I did an average of the recipes I found at that time. What category did you enter it in? It's definitely not a pils, but more like a hybrid of lager & ale(s) to me.