Kombucha gave me LSD-like symptoms

[Peruvian802]

May not be a peer reviewed journal, but I'd call this pretty credible. And with some digging (that I'm working on), there's sure to be a peer-reviewed study this is coming from.

And it seems to directly disagree with you.

It says they're rare, and they don't know what causes them, but they're real.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/fyi-can-acid-trip-really-give-you-flashbacks

From the article:

In a 2002 review of the scientific literature on HPPD over the last 50 years, psychiatrist John Halpern and his co-authors found most studies provided too little information to estimate the prevalence "even crudely" of HPPD in the population. "It is often unclear whether symptoms occurred exclusively following hallucinogen intoxication," they write. "It is also difficult to rule out other medical or psychiatric conditions that might cause 'flashbacks', including current intoxication with another drug, neurological conditions, current psychotic or affective disorders, malingering, hypochondriasis, or even other anxiety disorders such as posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD)."

Either way, pass the kombucha! :beard::cross:

 

[orangehero]

I just tried some GT's kombucha for the sake of science and it gave me a jenkem flashback.

 

[troy2000]

Sorry guys but there is no peer reviewed proof of solely LSD related flashbacks.

Oh and troy2000 - I'm not a chemist, but I attended approximately 80 Grateful Dead shows in my day. ��

I'm not a chemist either. But I don't need 'peer reviewed proof' of something I've experienced first-hand.

If you brought up the Grateful dead concerts to imply that you've used LSD without ever having a flashback, that hardly proves no one has them.

 

[BigJack]

 

[Peruvian802]

Obviously, you've never been there and are completely clueless. Please stop spouting off on subjects you know nothing about....

But see, this is where you were wrong.

...and you are absolutely sure that your "flashbacks" were LSD induced, correct?


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[Qhrumphf]

But see, this is where you were wrong.

...and you are absolutely sure that your "flashbacks" were LSD induced, correct?


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

I think you're setting a very narrow definition of "induced". And that's framing this in a way where people can't really debate you. Regardless of what the technical cause is, flashbacks associated with psychadelic drug use is well recorded.

Unless you're saying it's all in people's heads and denying the existence of flashbacks altogether.

In any event, I'm not going to keep hijacking the thread with this discussion.

 

[Pilgarlic]

This thread is a front-runner for the "Lots of Heat, Little Light" award.

 

[podz]

Flashbacks from LSD ingestion are an urban myth.

Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean that it doesn't happen to others. There have been ocassional glitches in the matrix, seemingly random metabolic warps and such...


Oh, this is an interesting analysis:

http://simson.net/ref/1970/LSD_Flashbacks_ocr.pdf


OP: But to suggest that drinking kombucha triggered a flashback? Possibly it did. But you could drink kombucha a hundred more times, trying to verify, and it won't happen again.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I'm amused that people think this thread has sufficient purpose and substance such that it can be hijacked.

 

[troy2000]

But see, this is where you were wrong.

...and you are absolutely sure that your "flashbacks" were LSD induced, correct?


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

The only thing I'm 'absolutely' sure of is that someday you and I will both die. But I'm sure beyond a reasonable doubt.

I didn't have flashbacks until I had used LSD for a couple of years, and I was using no other drugs aside from an occasional joint. The flashbacks were basically mini-acid trips - and they tapered off and eventually stopped, after I quit using LSD.

I find few things more obnoxious than smug ignorance and contrariness for its own sake, and I'm done encouraging you. Go display your incredible brilliance and vast knowledge to someone who cares....

 

[shelly_belly]

The thing is once you've done LSD you've created new pathways and have entered new knowledge in your brain. Your brain can now return you there whenever it feels like it and for whatever reason and probably for the rest of your life. The kombucha may have been a trigger, but only in the sense that it was something new you were ingesting that you perceived might effect your mind and/or body.

 

[Hoppity]

Never had a flashback. Any good trigger ideas? Lost my connection in the late 70's. You may remember him: the frisbee dude in Central Park.

 

[podz]

Never had a flashback. Any good trigger ideas?

Get yourself out to the coast on the northern end of the Cascade range during late August for a few weeks visit with a fellow homebrewer. You know, over there in God's country, as Troy's dad called it.

 

[Peruvian802]

Get yourself out to the coast on the northern end of the Cascade range during late August for a few weeks visit with a fellow homebrewer. You know, over there in God's country, as Troy's dad called it.

Do this. Whether you get the expected outcome or not, you will thank podz.

I lived in Seattle for 10 years and still miss the Cascades. I summited Lassen, Jefferson, Hood, Adams, St. Helens, some lesser known peaks from the Beckey guide, Baker, and just one or two of the peaks north of the 49th parallel.

You'll get 'high' no matter what you chemical compound.

 

[Jman_01]

Maybe it's because you need more tolerance


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[Blue-Frog]

I didn't have flashbacks until I had used LSD for a couple of years, and I was using no other drugs aside from an occasional joint. The flashbacks were basically mini-acid trips - and they tapered off and eventually stopped, after I quit using LSD.

I find few things more obnoxious than smug ignorance and contrariness for its own sake, and I'm done encouraging you. Go display your incredible brilliance and vast knowledge to someone who cares....

All Certainty is a faith based illusion.

I am willing to mine your belief in flashbacks for any potential nugget of truth, but you seem very angry.

I did some study of the issue and I came to the conclusion... LSD does not cause Flashbacks.

In all cases, there were alternate explanations.

Actually,

If you look into it, there are also reports of "flashbacks" for many other drugs even cannabis...
and for that matter, even non-drug examples such as Déjà vu.

With so many types of "flashbacks" I think you are not going to be able to point to LSD and say it causes flashbacks.

I belive that these drugs do not CAUSE flashbacks,
but that there are people who claim to re-experience many things they have experienced before.

There are also people who, caught by law enforcement, may try to dislodge responsability for their inebrieation, by saying they were having a flashback, rather than say they broke the law again. There are also those people who will try to mar the image of drugs by publishing negative reports that support their agenda... I recall when I was in 7th grade, the local police came to our school and lectured us on the dangers of lsd; they brought a deformed fetus in a bottle and told us in no uncertain terms that this is what LSD does to you. That was the chromosone damage scare, later disproven.

I am sure there are some "friends" and yes even goverment agencies who gave people lsd with out their knowledge nor consent.... all in all, I think there is a lot of reason to be skeptical.

The inventor and discoverer of LSD, Dr Albert Hofmann, never had a flashback, either.

That said, I am curious about your flashback experience; if you would like to write me a detailed concise summary I wouldn't mind taking a closer look at it. I have an unpublished paper on flashbacks in abox somewhere.
If this intrests you PM me, we needn't hijack the op thread.

As far as kombucha experience, I think replication is in order!

Who knows...

Where The Doors of Perception are waiting to be opened!

 

[troy2000]

All Certainty is a faith based illusion.

I am willing to mine your belief in flashbacks for any potential nugget of truth, but you seem very angry

I don't have a 'belief' in flashbacks; I have memories of them. A not-so-subtle difference.

Angry? No. Irritated? Yes. It irritates me to read claims that something I've personally seen or experienced is an urban myth.

That said, I am curious about your flashback experience; if you would like to write me a detailed concise summary I wouldn't mind taking a closer look at it. I have an unpublished paper on flashbacks in a box somewhere.

I already posted a concise summary:

The flashbacks were basically mini-acid trips...

If I started packing details into it, it would no longer be concise or a summary, would it?

add: they pretty much fit the profile of my normal trips. But they were much milder, and compressed into minutes instead of hours.

 

[podz]

I did some study of the issue and I came to the conclusion... LSD does not cause Flashbacks.

In all cases, there were alternate explanations.

Are you a recognized expert in neurobiology and neuropharmacology?

Additionally, are you aware that plants communicate with each other via the vast underground network of fungal mycelia? For example, when a rose bush gets attacked by ants carrying aphids, it sends a warning out over the mycellal network so that other nearby rose plants can excrete protective enzymes in advance. How are messages passed over mycelia? Axonal transport is even too simple of a concept to explain what's happening here and modern scientists didn't even sufficiently understand axonal transport until they studied giant squid.

Our scientific knowledge is far from complete. Especially when it comes to the function of our own brains. Even Oliver Sacks, a distinguished neurosurgeon and acid tripper, says regarding flashbacks:

We don't know exactly what happens in these flashbacks, which can occur in various situations, but there must be some sudden physiological change. I don't think anything can happen in the mind which is not mirrored in the brain.

 

[GuldTuborg]

All Certainty is a faith based illusion.

Can we stop with the mindless platitudes please? I'm not sure there is any real content here.

 

[youngpretender13]

Ok yeah 1st of all "Flashbacks" are complete BS. Its an urban myth that goes right up there with LSD being stored in your spinal fluid until you die. It is possible that the kombucha may have contained a slight amount of alcohol (1%) but i doubt that was the cause either. I must say i have caught a slight buzz off of elderly kombucha but it was hardly perceptible. Perhaps you are getting a cold or something. lol. If I were you I'd just drink some more of it.

 

[troy2000]

Ok yeah 1st of all "Flashbacks" are complete BS. Its an urban myth that goes right up there with LSD being stored in your spinal fluid until you die. It is possible that the kombucha may have contained a slight amount of alcohol (1%) but i doubt that was the cause either. I must say i have caught a slight buzz off of elderly kombucha but it was hardly perceptible. Perhaps you are getting a cold or something. lol. If I were you I'd just drink some more of it.

So am I a liar, or am I just psychotic and remembering things that never happened?

 

[GuldTuborg]

So am I a liar, or am I just psychotic and remembering things that never happened?

Well, to be fair, the point could be that he doubts your experiences should be attributed to exactly what you attribute them to, as in the mechanism that caused them.

That might be his point, and if so, it's a fair challenge. Of course, if it's anything other than that, your question and irritation is equally fair.

 

[troy2000]

Well, to be fair, the point could be that he doubts your experiences should be attributed to exactly what you attribute them to, as in the mechanism that caused them.

That might be his point, and if so, it's a fair challenge. Of course, if it's anything other than that, your question and irritation is equally fair.

Given that the flashbacks started after I had been tripping on LSD for a while, tapered off and disappeared after I stopped tripping (and haven't returned in the forty years since), and were a toned-down, shorter-lasting version of my trips, common sense would indicate they were a direct result of those trips and there's no need to go looking for other causes.

But of course I realize I'm now in the Twilight Zone known as internet chat, where common sense is in the eye of the beholder (or poster)....

Getting back to the OP's original experience, It isn't completely unreasonable to suppose he may have gotten hold of kombucha that was contaminated with mold, some types of which are known to produce hallucinations. In fact, LSD was originally synthesized from ergotamine, a chemical found in the mold ergot.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Can we stop with the mindless platitudes please? I'm not sure there is any real content here.

Not sure I agree with you about content poverty.

The issue of "proof" is the issue here and
I believe we all "accept" basically everything at the point where we get tired of looking at the "evidence".

It is a numbers game...
not ever having found X in a subset, doesn't prove its non-existance.

IF the chance is one in a million, or one in a trillion,
it isn't likely, but it is still possible...

yet most would just "round off" to say "no X".

Look at personal ID:

How can you prove you are you?
Birth Certificate?
Mother's sworn tesitimony?
Fingerprints?
DNA?

In any method, there is the POTENTIAL for deception.
falsification, rare occurances actually occurring, misunderstandings...
and any potential at all... means that "proof" is an illusion.

When we believe in something, it simply means that we feel comfortable with THAT level of uncertanity...
although we do not usually look at it like that, that is about the size of it.　


Proof relates to the concept of "persuation".

Some people are easier to persuade because they are more willing to suspend the natural process of critical evaluation, earlier than others....

Perhaps I have not persuaded you that my comment was not devoid of real content.
At least I have tried to state my position.

Critically evualuate it and come to your own conclusion.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Getting back to the OP's original experience, It isn't completely unreasonable to suppose he may have gotten hold of kombucha that was contaminated with mold, some types of which are known to produce hallucinations. In fact, LSD was originally synthesized from ergotamine, a chemical found in the mold ergot.

Which is what i hinted at earlier.

However, we are all too egar to accept the self-reported "like LSD effects" of the OP as fact. That claim and those effects need to be looked at in detail. What has been described so far is insufficient.

Also, what were the other possible explanations for the effects the OP mentioned sort of in passing?

 

[GuldTuborg]

Given that the flashbacks started after I had been tripping on LSD for a while, tapered off and disappeared after I stopped tripping (and haven't returned in the forty years since), and were a toned-down, shorter-lasting version of my trips, common sense would indicate they were a direct result of those trips and there's no need to go looking for other causes.

Hold on a moment. I've read a bunch of your posts. You're a smart guy. Follow me here for a minute. I must have not made myself sufficiently clear.

If we want to go all Aristotelian on this for a minute, let's not confuse material with efficient causes. The original, material cause can be the LSD, but the mechanism I referred to earlier (the efficient cause) can vary quite a bit. What I mean is, most people have in mind a mechanism by which to explain LSD "flashbacks," as this mechanism has been described and there seems to be at least one basic step by step explanation. It's easy to question that explanation while accepting that the LSD is, at heart, eventually the base reason for the flashbacks to begin with.

Questioning the efficient cause, so defined, is pretty normal behavior and, whether it's correct to do so in your eyes, should not be shunned. I don't see you questioning this either, though. Questioning the material cause, so defined, is getting into risky territory, and where I see you making your case. I'm inclined to believe your argument, if you restrict it to this level, on this matter, but questioning this cause in addition shouldn't be frowned upon, either, so long as one has some meaningful argument to show. Granted, I haven't seen one here yet, but I don't begrudge it in general.

So, clear as mud, no?

Not sure I agree with you about content poverty.

The issue of "proof" is the issue here and
I believe we all "accept" basically everything at the point where we get tired of looking at the "evidence". ...Critically evualuate it and come to your own conclusion.

Don't take me the wrong way. You're clearly someone who has thought through some of this as well, and I will not trivialize your arguments (at least not purposefully, and call me out if I do by mistake).

I am an unabashed fallibilist, and believe anything can and should be questioned for veracity, should we have sufficient evidence to do so. So in that capacity, we seem to see eye to eye. However, it seemed you were using a very vague generalization to shut down discussion, rather than further it, with the way you presented this argument earlier. That's what I took umbrage with.

But, I'm pretty drunk right now, and will freely admit I might be missing something here. If I'm committing a beer forum discussion party foul, point it out; it won't be the first time I've been wrong before.

 

[beernutz]

https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_info3.shtml
and
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/fyi-can-acid-trip-really-give-you-flashbacks
would suggest that flashbacks are rare but real.

Regardless, I want to more about the sleeper cell agent OP.

 

[Blue-Frog]

I already posted a concise summary:If I started packing details into it, it would no longer be concise or a summary, would it?

add: they pretty much fit the profile of my normal trips. But they were much milder, and compressed into minutes instead of hours.

In a serious discussion / investigation you would need to be willing to adress such questions as:

Did you experience neausea during your "flashbacks"?
How long did your "flashbacks" last?
Did they all last for about the same duration?
How did they usually begin?
How did they usually end?
Was there anything different between a flashback and a trip?
How would you know which it was while it was happening?
How long after your first LSD did they begin?
How many times did you take LSD before they began?
Did you continue to take LSD after you had your first "Flashback"?
If so, Why?

Where were you when your flashbacks bagan?
Were you alone?

Have you ever suffered migraine headaches?
Have you ever had anyform of epilepsy?
Were you ever around someone with easy access to a large amount of LSD?

Have you ever worked for the goverment?

What other drugs have you taken?
(all, illegal and otherwise )
Where you ever addicted to any drugs?
Have you ever been diagnosed as having a mental illness?

What were your LSD trips like?
(give a real example)

What were your LSD flashbacks like?
(give a real example)

Have you ever drank alcohol?
Were you a drinker during your LSD use?
Were you a drinker during your "flashback stage" ?

Were you ever an alcoholic?
Have you ever tried to stop drinking?

After taking LSD did you see things that were not there?
Did you hear voices?

During a "flashback", did hear any voices?
What sort of things or visual disturbances did you experience?

Did you enjoy your LSD trips?
Did you enjoy your "flashbacks"?

Why did you stop taking LSD?
Would you like to take it again someday?

A serious investigator would want to know a lot about you and your mind.

 

[Blue-Frog]

<snip>
Don't take me the wrong way. You're clearly someone who has thought through some of this as well, and I will not trivialize your arguments (at least not purposefully, and call me out if I do by mistake).

I am an unabashed fallibilist, and believe anything can and should be questioned for veracity, should we have sufficient evidence to do so. So in that capacity, we seem to see eye to eye. However, it seemed you were using a very vague generalization to shut down discussion, rather than further it, with the way you presented this argument earlier. That's what I took umbrage with.

But, I'm pretty drunk right now, and will freely admit I might be missing something here. If I'm committing a beer forum discussion party foul, point it out; it won't be the first time I've been wrong before.

Don't worry. I did not want to "get into it" as I don't have time to spend on this subject right now, although it is one I am passionate about. I guess I should keep my mouth shut when I don't have time to sit down and have a beer.

So I might have wanted to make a quick comment and exit before I got entangled in discussion. The issue is extreamly interesting though,
especially if you look at the reported "flashbacks" as a "side effect".

Most side effects are DIFFERENT from the main effect,
not the main effect happening again, long after the chemicals have been metabolized and excreated.

Anyway, enjoy your beer!

 

[podz]

In a serious discussion / investigation you would need to be willing to adress such questions as:

...

Were you ever an alcoholic?

That's real serious...