kitlab. WTF?

[fimpster]

My guess, purely speculation, is that since they already have an established business for selling the kits (betterbeerkits.com), they will just need to develop software and a platform to be able to allow authors to register their recipes and track purchases and payouts. Different that just plain shopping cart software for a purely retail business. Also marketing and other start-up costs?

They're only at 11% of goal with 5 days left.

 

[TallDan]

My guess, purely speculation, is that since they already have an established business for selling the kits (betterbeerkits.com), they will just need to develop software and a platform to be able to allow authors to register their recipes and track purchases and payouts. Different that just plain shopping cart software for a purely retail business. Also marketing and other start-up costs?

They're only at 11% of goal with 5 days left.

So, uh, given the fact that the guy doing the kickstarter claims to be the web designer behind lulus.com is he paying himself $45k to improve his own business's website?

Again, seems like his time would be better spent on his existing business than on promoting a kickstarter campaign.

 

[fimpster]

He's not paying himself... he's asking the public to pay him. lol

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Can I has you recipes? Give you a dollar!

 

[orangehero]

If a recipe is shared publicly then there's nothing to steal. You would be getting paid for bringing the recipe to them, it doesn't matter if you wrote it or not. Any kind of "policing" would be arbitrary. The scheme is to get other people to find the best recipes for his homebrew supply website instead of finding those recipes or creating new ones himself. Obviously he needs something better than his "betterbeerkits".

One could easily and perfectly legally start a new website selling homebrew kits but just use the kitlab recipes without having to pay the submitters or authors of the recipes.

 

[Teromous]

If a recipe is shared publicly then there's nothing to steal. You would be getting paid for bringing the recipe to them, it doesn't matter if you wrote it or not. Any kind of "policing" would be arbitrary. The scheme is to get other people to find the best recipes for his homebrew supply website instead of finding those recipes or creating new ones himself. Obviously he needs something better than his "betterbeerkits".

One could easily and perfectly legally start a new website selling homebrew kits but just use the kitlab recipes without having to pay the submitters or authors of the recipes.

Really? So you see no problem with me making money off "Denny's Rye IPA" or any other recipe? What if I were to take all the recipes out of Brewing Classic Styles and upload them?

 

[Hello]

I think I'd be hesitant to "invest" in a business that is like the current business that seems to be struggling. Or maybe it's flourishing and they have done so well that they can close shop for a bit to garner interest for their next venture. Me, I can hardly take a couple of weeks off work without the **** hitting the fan and I'm far from important at my job.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I think I'd be hesitant to "invest" in a business that is like the current business that seems to be struggling. Or maybe it's flourishing and they have done so well that they can close shop for a bit to garner interest for their next venture. Me, I can hardly take a couple of weeks off work without the **** hitting the fan and I'm far from important at my job.

I placed an order with betterbeerkits.com, 2 weeks ago, and still don't have a shipping confirmation. Anyone know what's up?

 

[orangehero]

Really? So you see no problem with me making money off "Denny's Rye IPA" or any other recipe? What if I were to take all the recipes out of Brewing Classic Styles and upload them?

I'm not a copyright lawyer but that's how I understand it. Considerations of courtesy and common decency among homebrewers as far as I know are not legally binding. Hence why there are breweries that will not share recipes. To use your example, once Denny shared his Rye IPA recipe anyone was and is free to make money off it. It's not like he can demand to get paid any time someone uses it.

 

[Pkrd]

My regular online home brew shops will happily crush and pack grain in 10g increments. Some do some hops that way too.
They still don't offer to scale their kits online but when I email them they are happy to provide half size kits.
So I don't see how kitlab is really useful here. Also it's nice to adjust recipes yourself so you feel like you have some input. In the same way that I have to crack a few eggs when making a cake out of a box.
What would be really useful would be the ability to upload a recipe file from your brew software and create an order from that ( using grain and hop substitution where necessary).

 

[Hello]

I placed an order with betterbeerkits.com, 2 weeks ago, and still don't have a shipping confirmation. Anyone know what's up?

Didn't they say they were taking a break and they would be back after their kickstarter event was done? Or something like that...

 

[TimmyWit]

So, uh, given the fact that the guy doing the kickstarter claims to be the web designer behind lulus.com is he paying himself $45k to improve his own business's website?

Again, seems like his time would be better spent on his existing business than on promoting a kickstarter campaign.

I have never heard of betterbeerkits.com until just now. Plus, this guy got a slot on the news to talk about this? Any shameless plugs for betterbeerkits.com? Just sayin. Maybe he knows $45K isn't going to happen but he sure is getting a lot of free publicity.

 

[joshesmusica]

damnit guys! (and possibly ladies)... i'm normaly super skeptical. the one time i was a little bit optimistic about something and you all go and ruin it. there goes my trust in the entire human race once again...

 

[bluemoose]

Kind of funny. Just about every Yooper recipe says "I know I saw this recipe somewhere". Some of hers are original, some have been followed, enjoyed and posted. I have brewed my fair share of other people's recipes. Everyone has the option of keeping their recipe a secret and selling tons of beer.
I'm just not sure how this is different than others making kits, other than trying to capitalize on the Brewers they came from.

 

[CGVT]

It really isn't much different than the recipe file that Brewmaster's Warehouse had before they went out of business. I'm pretty sure that every one of Yooper's recipes was on there as well as many other "standards" (Edwort, Biermuncher etc etc) from here. BWH was making money by building kits from those recipes. Nobody complained about that. I'm not sure that I see a problem with this.

 

[Yooper]

It really isn't much different than the recipe file that Brewmaster's Warehouse had before they went out of business. I'm pretty sure that every one of Yooper's recipes was on there as well as many other "standards" (Edwort, Biermuncher etc etc) from here. BWH was making money by building kits from those recipes. Nobody complained about that. I'm not sure that I see a problem with this.

If all of my recipes were on there, that would be news to me. Still, it doesn't really matter to me whether I get a dollar or not for it.

What may make this hard is if we all post recipes on there, hoping to make a few dollars, who will say if they are proven and tested recipes? I don't order kits any more, but for others who do I recommend kits from places like Northern Brewer. I've brewed them, or others I know have, and even if not, they are all tested proven recipes. If I buy a kit from kitlab, and it's "Bill Mahler's IPA", and the recipe isn't actually very good, how does that work out for the consumer? Not well. I remember someone used the Brewmaster's Warehouse "brew builder" and made a recipe with 10 pounds of caramunich. No one said, "hey, dude, that won't work!" until he came to our site to question his poor efficiency. These would be the big concerns of mine- WHO designed this recipe, is it proven, and is it good?

Our site requires all recipes to be proven winners, and multiple posts will attest to certain recipes. I'm not sure I'd have confidence to order a kit from "Jake" or whoever.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

damnit guys! (and possibly ladies)... i'm normaly super skeptical. the one time i was a little bit optimistic about something and you all go and ruin it. there goes my trust in the entire human race once again...

I lost that decades ago.

 

[CGVT]

If all of my recipes were on there, that would be news to me. Still, it doesn't really matter to me whether I get a dollar or not for it.

What may make this hard is if we all post recipes on there, hoping to make a few dollars, who will say if they are proven and tested recipes? I don't order kits any more, but for others who do I recommend kits from places like Northern Brewer. I've brewed them, or others I know have, and even if not, they are all tested proven recipes. If I buy a kit from kitlab, and it's "Bill Mahler's IPA", and the recipe isn't actually very good, how does that work out for the consumer? Not well. I remember someone used the Brewmaster's Warehouse "brew builder" and made a recipe with 10 pounds of caramunich. No one said, "hey, dude, that won't work!" until he came to our site to question his poor efficiency. These would be the big concerns of mine- WHO designed this recipe, is it proven, and is it good?

Our site requires all recipes to be proven winners, and multiple posts will attest to certain recipes. I'm not sure I'd have confidence to order a kit from "Jake" or whoever.

Ok, **most** I think that the same as BWH's brew builder recipe base it is a buyer be ware type issue. If a person had an idea of what they were looking at, the convenience of being able to order a recipe that was already measured and packaged would not be a bad thing. I know that before I bought a mill and started buying in bulk, the brew builder was a pretty nice feature for making some of your recipes, as well as a few others that are posted here on HBT. If the cost isn't prohibitive, it could be a good tool to add to other sites and their recipes.

 

[brewprint]

Why would anyone buy a kit from the recipes in the first place? That's what I don't understand.

The ingredients are listed. A guy or gal could just email or print out a recipe and give it to the LHBS and get the 'kit.' Or just order online from my LHBS like I do and get it shipped.

I just don't get it. It's not like it's much work to copy and paste.

 

[fimpster]

If all of my recipes were on there, that would be news to me. Still, it doesn't really matter to me whether I get a dollar or not for it.

What may make this hard is if we all post recipes on there, hoping to make a few dollars, who will say if they are proven and tested recipes? I don't order kits any more, but for others who do I recommend kits from places like Northern Brewer. I've brewed them, or others I know have, and even if not, they are all tested proven recipes. If I buy a kit from kitlab, and it's "Bill Mahler's IPA", and the recipe isn't actually very good, how does that work out for the consumer? Not well. I remember someone used the Brewmaster's Warehouse "brew builder" and made a recipe with 10 pounds of caramunich. No one said, "hey, dude, that won't work!" until he came to our site to question his poor efficiency. These would be the big concerns of mine- WHO designed this recipe, is it proven, and is it good?

Our site requires all recipes to be proven winners, and multiple posts will attest to certain recipes. I'm not sure I'd have confidence to order a kit from "Jake" or whoever.

I agree with Yooper 100%. I'll add that what worries me is that some folks could stop posting to HBT and similar communities, so that they can make a few bucks by only posting to KL. Then the sharing and collaboration that makes HBT so great may be compromised.

 

[FatDragon]

Not sure where the $1/gallon figure came from - was it pulled out of someone's butt or is that actually what kitlab is offering its contributors? Adding $5 overhead on top of every 5 gallon kit is way too much, and it creates too much incentive for contributors to share recipes or try to game the system by spamming the site with recipes ripped off of sites like this one. Unless it's closely regulated, there will be thousands of recipes on offer (many identical and many sub-par) making order fulfillment a huge pain and driving away customers who are overwhelmed by the selection. $1/kit with no distinction between kit sizes would be far more reasonable, and even that might be enough to cause problems.

I still want to be optimistic about the idea, but reading this thread makes it easy to see the hundred ways in which it could go wrong.

 

[fimpster]

Not sure where the $1/gallon figure came from - was it pulled out of someone's butt or is that actually what kitlab is offering its contributors?

This is from KL's Kickstarter page

Authors will be paid $1/gallon for the entire life of their kits. Sell four 5-gallon kits this month? We owe you $20. Sell ten 10-gallon kits? You've got $100 coming your way - all for that one great recipe you uploaded once.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/993873893/kit-lab-sell-your-own-beer-kits-support-great-brew

 

[TallDan]

Not sure where the $1/gallon figure came from - was it pulled out of someone's butt or is that actually what kitlab is offering its contributors? Adding $5 overhead on top of every 5 gallon kit is way too much, and it creates too much incentive for contributors to share recipes or try to game the system by spamming the site with recipes ripped off of sites like this one. Unless it's closely regulated, there will be thousands of recipes on offer (many identical and many sub-par) making order fulfillment a huge pain and driving away customers who are overwhelmed by the selection. $1/kit with no distinction between kit sizes would be far more reasonable, and even that might be enough to cause problems.

I still want to be optimistic about the idea, but reading this thread makes it easy to see the hundred ways in which it could go wrong.

Authors will be paid $1/gallon for the entire life of their kits. Sell four 5-gallon kits this month? We owe you $20. Sell ten 10-gallon kits? You've got $100 coming your way - all for that one great recipe you uploaded once.

Want a 20 gallon kit? It'll be overpriced by $20!

 

[fimpster]

I wonder what will happen when popular recipes sell over 600 gallons in a year, thereby triggering the IRS requirement to issue a form 1099-misc (any money earned over $600) by Kit Lab to their contributors. Will they start requiring people to register with SSN just to post a recipe? If they already paid the money but failed to get an SSN for tax reporting, they will be facing some fines. Ask me how I know.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

I wonder what will happen when popular recipes sell over 600 gallons in a year, thereby triggering the IRS requirement to issue a form 1099-misc (any money earned over $600) by Kit Lab to their contributors. Will they start requiring people to register with SSN just to post a recipe? If they already paid the money but failed to get an SSN for tax reporting, they will be facing some fines. Ask me how I know.

how do you know?

 

[fimpster]

Haha, thanks Billy.
Yeah, I ended up owing $1700 to the IRS on $2200 paid to someone for side jobs. They hadn't given me a SSN, I just wrote them small checks each time. Well once the IRS discovered it I tried to get their SSN, but they refused. I was liable for all taxes, interest, and a fine.

Edit to add: if you pay cash under the table this would be easy to hide. But KL will certainly be paying by check, bank transfer, PayPal, or some other easily traceable method.

 

[CGVT]

Why would anyone buy a kit from the recipes in the first place? That's what I don't understand.

The ingredients are listed. A guy or gal could just email or print out a recipe and give it to the LHBS and get the 'kit.' Or just order online from my LHBS like I do and get it shipped.

I just don't get it. It's not like it's much work to copy and paste.

There a lot of people that would by a kit from a recipe. My first all-grain beer was Yooper's Pale Ale. After reading a bunch on here, I decided that was what I wanted to make. It is an hour and a half of my life to drive to my LHBS and back. The recipe was listed in the Brewmaster's Warehouse Brewbuilder data base. I ordered it and paid $4.99 shipping. It showed up in two days and I didn't have to do anything other than wait for it to show up and then brew it. It was damn tasty, BTW.

It would really not be any different than ordering it on line from your LHBS and getting it shipped, just like you do. It is a convenience issue.

I can't see myself using kitlab now, but I could have seen me using it when I first started.

I do think that kitlab is probably going to be too expensive to succeed.

 

[brewprint]

There a lot of people that would by a kit from a recipe. My first all-grain beer was Yooper's Pale Ale. After reading a bunch on here, I decided that was what I wanted to make. It is an hour and a half of my life to drive to my LHBS and back. The recipe was listed in the Brewmaster's Warehouse Brewbuilder data base. I ordered it and paid $4.99 shipping. It showed up in two days and I didn't have to do anything other than wait for it to show up and then brew it. It was damn tasty, BTW.

It would really not be any different than ordering it on line from your LHBS and getting it shipped, just like you do. It is a convenience issue.

I can't see myself using kitlab now, but I could have seen me using it when I first started.

I do think that kitlab is probably going to be too expensive to succeed.

I guess it's convenience. I don't believe that it would be much more convenient though.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I wonder what will happen when popular recipes sell over 600 gallons in a year, thereby triggering the IRS requirement to issue a form 1099-misc (any money earned over $600) by Kit Lab to their contributors. Will they start requiring people to register with SSN just to post a recipe? If they already paid the money but failed to get an SSN for tax reporting, they will be facing some fines. Ask me how I know.

Can you imagine, if say, Edworts Apfelwein had originally been posted to KL?

28401.5 gallons of that since published. And that is just those who've reported it. That is an awesome chunk of change.

Now imagine if it was just someone who scalped the recipe from here.

 

[Chris_Primavera]

Looks like he's a bit short:

$5,434 pledged of $44,995 goal
4 days to go

Wonder what happens to the money if this flops?