Kegland Rapt Pill floating hydrometer temperature monitor

[natmartin]

We have stared to manufacture PPSU sight glasses so you could try these:

2" PPSU sight glass
3" PPSU sight glass

We have been very happy with PPSU in general as the plastic is incredible, has very high chemical resistance, is almost indestructible, has very high temperature resistance. It's also transparent too which is one of the main benefits. The only issue is the plastic is substantially more expensive than stainless steel. So you could also give this a go too.

Very cool! Any plans for a 1.5” size? (I know I can always use the 2” with an adapter)

 

[KegLand]

Very cool! Any plans for a 1.5” size? (I know I can always use the 2” with an adapter)

We can do that fairly easily. We have a cheaper 1.5" TC that you could use but it's not transparent and this is available now:
https://www.kegland.com.au/pco1881-male-x-1-5-inch-tri-clover-pok.html

 

[bloombrews]

So, speaking as an electrical engineer, the problem is that the conical is a Faraday chamber, and the size of any RF-transparent apertures are pretty small when it's all sealed up.

You don't actually need any antennas going between the inside and the outside, you just need a small area of RF-transparent material. Most plastics and glass are RF transparent. So, if you found a glass or plastic TC blank that you could clamp on somewhere, that would do the trick. I know that Spike makes one for the 4" port (if you're not using the cooling coil.). I don't know if anyone makes any glass or plastic 1.5" ports.

A sight glass might do the trick too. For what it's worth, I used to have a lot of trouble getting the BT signal from Tilt out of my conical. Once I started adding a 2" sight glass on the dump port, I really haven't had any issues any more. So see if adding a sight glass somewhere helps you out.

My next batch in my conical I'll try a pill, and I'll report back if I have any issues.

Thanks so much @natmartin ! I knew there had to be a "solution". I do have sight glasses I used on my older Ss "Chronical" tanks, but not with the newer Unitanks (due to the low to ground bottom. I will put an Ellbow on the bottom dump port and try this out.
Clerification - "half-baked" are not the solutions like the Native ESP8266 BrewPi Firmware - WiFi BrewPi, no Arduino needed!, by @Thorrak
I just ment that the "fix" should be an on-the-board hardware, not external "fixes".

 

[KegLand]

On the subject of wifi, I'm using an Asus mesh setup, and I have a router in the same room, maybe 10 feet away, as the keg with the pill in it. No problem with signal quality, varies from -45dB to -65dB. Every once and a while a data point gets dropped, but overall it seems very consistent.

Hey natmartin. I would be also curious to know if you think there would be any difference if you ground the tank or not. If the tank is grounded do you think it would absorb less of the RF signal?

 

[doug293cz]

Hey natmartin. I would be also curious to know if you think there would be any difference if you ground the tank or not. If the tank is grounded do you think it would absorb less of the RF signal?

Not an RF engineer, but my semi-educated opinion is that grounding would make the signal absorption worse. Now, let's see what @natmartin says, he sounds like he knows more about RF than I do.

Brew on

 

[natmartin]

I'll also say I'm not an RF engineer, though I tend to deal with RF issues frequently. That said, I don't think grounding the conical will make a difference one way or another. The entire effect is based on having a conductive material entirely surrounding an electric field.

 

[doug293cz]

I'll also say I'm not an RF engineer, though I tend to deal with RF issues frequently. That said, I don't think grounding the conical will make a difference one way or another. The entire effect is based on having a conductive material entirely surrounding an electric field.

I feel an experiment coming on. I'd do it, but don't have the equipment. If someone is curious enough, I accept donations.

Brew on

 

[KegLand]

I did some very simple tests on a stainless steel BrewBuilt fermenter.

I closed the fermenter lid and all the ports and butterfly valve. The BLE signal was -71dB

I then used this product on a single 1.5"TC port on the lid:
https://www.kegland.com.au/pco1881-male-x-1-5-inch-tri-clover-pok.htmlWith this attached the BLE signal was averaging -68dB. A small difference but still noticeable. The 1.5" port is quite small.

I then got a round piece of plastic the same size as the 4" TC lid and covered the whole lid hole and the BLE signal improved to -61dB.

These tests were done with my mobile phone and averaging the readings over about 1min and trying to to moving anything else when doing the comparison.

Based on this I would say it's fair to say switching over to plastic does seem to make a substantial difference on this basic testing. I think we might need to make a 4" TC lid that looks like this one:
https://www.kegland.com.au/fermzilla-cupola-lid-2-inch-tri-clover-port.htmlBut is compatible with 4" TC fittings so it suits the wide range of fermenters with 4" TC at the top. What do you guys think?

 

[bloombrews]

My SsUnitanks have 3", 6", on top, with 1.5" for the blow-off cane and all the other ports. NO 4"
I knew there had to be something out there, to attach to my TC's, made out of a passive material (Plastic) for WiFi signals.
Whatever the passive material is, it must be able to withstand 15psi (+ for safety), for Spunding Valve purpose.

 

[KegLand]

knew there had to be something out there, to attach to my TC's, made out of a passive material (Plastic) for WiFi signals.
Whatever the passive material is, it must be able to withstand 15psi (+ for safety), for Sp

The links to the plastic parts that I have sent you can handle more then 10bar(145psi) without rupture so they have substantial safety factory. The pressure holding ability is not an issue.

To be honest its unlikely that we pay all the money to make parts for the SS BrewTech tanks 3" and 6" tanks as we do not use these ourselves and in Australia the SS BrewTech stuff seems to be getting less popular. We do not actually stock any of the BrewTech gear here. We are aligning ourselves with BrewBuilt fermenters as we feel the quality is better and it's better value for money.

 

[bloombrews]

To be honest its unlikely that we pay all the money to make parts for the SS BrewTech tanks 3" and 6" tanks as we do not use these ourselves and in Australia

A Tri Clamp reducer (or increaser), is not expensive, especially if you are not in a hurry and can wait 3 weeks from overseas china. The upper Safety Relief Valve is the only on-board tank fitting that must still be incorporated on any change-out of the tri clamps.
brewhardware.com has some really nice bulk-head, pull-through TC adapters, that I have put "extra" on my tanks, when I needed another TC port.
I need a non-jacketed 1/2Bbl Brite tank, so let me see what BB has.....
EDIT - BB does not make a Brite Tank (do not see it on there web site), Oh Well ......

 

[edd101]

Does anyone have issues with their Pill not sending any data at all? It works perfectly in direct wifi mode. -39dbm, can upload telemetry manually to the cloud works great. Once the device enters the refresh every X (in my case 20 minutes) mode, I never hear from it again.

The above issue is intermittent, in that I have gotten it to work previously, though it seems the only way to get it to work is to keep on connecting the USB cable and if it can send the first interval once it's outside direct mode it won't skip a beat.

 

[natmartin]

I did some very simple tests on a stainless steel BrewBuilt fermenter.

I closed the fermenter lid and all the ports and butterfly valve. The BLE signal was -71dB

I then used this product on a single 1.5"TC port on the lid:
https://www.kegland.com.au/pco1881-male-x-1-5-inch-tri-clover-pok.htmlWith this attached the BLE signal was averaging -68dB. A small difference but still noticeable. The 1.5" port is quite small.

I then got a round piece of plastic the same size as the 4" TC lid and covered the whole lid hole and the BLE signal improved to -61dB.

These tests were done with my mobile phone and averaging the readings over about 1min and trying to to moving anything else when doing the comparison.

Based on this I would say it's fair to say switching over to plastic does seem to make a substantial difference on this basic testing. I think we might need to make a 4" TC lid that looks like this one:
https://www.kegland.com.au/fermzilla-cupola-lid-2-inch-tri-clover-port.htmlBut is compatible with 4" TC fittings so it suits the wide range of fermenters with 4" TC at the top. What do you guys think?

Continuing to put on my EE hat, I should point out that -71dB to -68dB is actually twice the received power! So that's a bigger change than it seems.

Glad that reality seems to be matching physics theory!

I like the plastic caps you're selling, if for no other reason it would be fun to look inside and see the krausen. How can I order them in the US?

 

[SanPancho]

@KegLand not sure i saw this info anywhere but is there is temperature limit on the pill? your marketing info says the plastics used are okay for "high temperature" but doesnt specifically say what a limit would be. would mash temps be ok for the unit? say 150-170F ?

 

[BongoYodeler]

@KegLand not sure i saw this info anywhere but is there is temperature limit on the pill? your marketing info says the plastics used are okay for "high temperature" but doesnt specifically say what a limit would be. would mash temps be ok for the unit? say 150-170F ?

 

[SanPancho]

View attachment 816496

thank you sir.

 

[natmartin]

This is my favorite thread ever... throwing on my "Electrical Engineer who works for Lithium Ion Batteries for a living, and just taught a course on battery safety" hat now:

I assume that the 18650 battery in the Pill is Lithium Ion. I don't know what precise chemistry you're using. That said (and I'll make this bold and big):

Heating most lithium ion batteries beyond 65C can lead to permanent damage.
Heating some lithium ion batteries beyond 65C can lead to thermal runaway, fire, and toxic smoke release.

Please don't heat batteries.

 

[SanPancho]

This is my favorite thread ever... throwing on my "Electrical Engineer who works for Lithium Ion Batteries for a living, and just taught a course on battery safety" hat now:

I assume that the 18650 battery in the Pill is Lithium Ion. I don't know what precise chemistry you're using. That said (and I'll make this bold and big):

Heating most lithium ion batteries beyond 65C can lead to permanent damage.
Heating some lithium ion batteries beyond 65C can lead to thermal runaway, fire, and toxic smoke release.

Please don't heat batteries.

you're no fun Nate

any recommendation for a battery that would NOT turn my beer into "electrolyte IPA"???

 

[natmartin]

you're no fun Nate

any recommendation for a battery that would NOT turn my beer into "electrolyte IPA"???

Unfortunately, anything around nowadays that has high capacity (which you want so you don't need to recharge halfway through fermentation) will also have the limited temperature ranges. My advice would be to keep the pill on the cold side, and you'll be fine.

Go easydens for your mash temp measurements!
(Maybe some day you can use a Molten Salt battery. Those work well at high temperatures. In fact, they need to be 110C or above! So that adds its own problems...)

 

[natmartin]

you're no fun Nate

any recommendation for a battery that would NOT turn my beer into "electrolyte IPA"???

By the way, "Electrolyte IPA" sounds like a good beer name.

 

[hotbeer]

Does anyone have issues with their Pill not sending any data at all? It works perfectly in direct wifi mode. -39dbm, can upload telemetry manually to the cloud works great. Once the device enters the refresh every X (in my case 20 minutes) mode, I never hear from it again.

The above issue is intermittent, in that I have gotten it to work previously, though it seems the only way to get it to work is to keep on connecting the USB cable and if it can send the first interval once it's outside direct mode it won't skip a beat.

You do realize that when not directly connected to it that it is best to go through their cloud app via a web browser.

RAPT Cloud

You'll need some info that you should have gotten while connected to the portal.

With -39 dbm you should be getting excellent signal and data. As a test, I got decent data even when at -80 dbm though some reports were missing.

Oh yeah... if you are just testing it and have it lying horizontal, it might be that it has just gone to sleep thinking it's not being used. Stand it up or put it at a angle.

 

[edd101]

You do realize that when not directly connected to it that it is best to go through their cloud app via a web browser.

RAPT Cloud

You'll need some info that you should have gotten while connected to the portal.

Right (as far as I can tell) there are two modes
1) active high battery use mode that is triggered upon plugging into USB C. Sends fairly constant updates to the cloud, and also allows your device to connect directly for calibration and diagnostics.
2) After ~15 min the device deactivates its RAPT wifi access point, and only sends updates to the rapt cloud on the configurable interval ( I have it set to 15 min).

#1 works perfectly . A very high percentage of the time but not always, once #1 times out and the device moves to #2 mode the cloud ceases to receive any updates until I reactivate #1.

 

[hotbeer]

@edd101

I have a bad habit of going back an adding stuff to my replies. I don't know if you saw this that I added before I realized you'd replied to me.

Oh yeah... if you are just testing it and have it lying horizontal, it might be that it has just gone to sleep thinking it's not being used. Stand it up or put it at a angle.

 

[edd101]

@edd101

I have a bad habit of going back an adding stuff to my replies. I don't know if you saw this that I added before I realized you'd replied to me.

Yeah literally I will put in the wort, close it up. It will report gravity fairly constant for 10-15 minutes. And then go radio silent.

 

[hotbeer]

Yeah literally I will put in the wort, close it up. It will report gravity fairly constant for 10-15 minutes. And then go radio silent.

Well if you have it set to report every 15 minutes, then you'll have to wait 15 minutes plus whatever variable time their cloud app takes before you get the next report. If it transmitted continuously the battery wouldn't last very long.

And if all things temp and SG are the same then the only thing you have to go by is note below that say how long ago the data is for.

You could start a profile and then all the data points will be saved and shown on a graph.

 

[edd101]

Yeah the issue is after it exits mode 1 it will never update again. Not even after a day. 15 minutes would be fine

 

[hotbeer]

The "mode 1" thing has me a little baffled. Maybe I need to dig out my manual for it.

Or are you trying to use the API's and writing your own program to monitor it?

 

[edd101]

Oh it's nothing in their documentation I was just calling it that.

1) active high battery use mode that is triggered upon plugging into USB C. Sends fairly constant updates to the cloud, and also allows your device to connect directly for calibration and diagnostics.
2) After ~15 min the device deactivates its RAPT wifi access point, and only sends updates to the rapt cloud on the configurable interval ( I have it set to 15 min).

 

[SanPancho]

By the way, "Electrolyte IPA" sounds like a good beer name.

you heard it here first- electrolyte IPA™

 

[hotbeer]

@edd101

If you haven't already, you should go to Kegland's site and email their customer support. The couple questions I sent them they responded to and answered. Though it might take a few days.

I only have one Rapt Pill and it's worked for me. My questions to Kegland were more about just clearing up my slight misunderstanding about some things.