Kegging questions

[luckybeagle]

I've bottled so many beers over the past year that the arrival of my kegerator setup made me feel like I had reached the pinnacle of homebrewing luxury. Now, I'm not so sure.

I've kegged 3 beers so far: Kolsch, Belgian Blonde, and a Hefeweizen.

I've noticed a difference in mouthfeel between these and my bottled versions. While I got a good head on each of these, the beer itself lacks that spritziness that I've come to love in my trappist ales bottled to 2.5 to 3 volumes. The mouthfeel just isn't there. Is this typical in kegged beers? Am I doing something wrong?

My Process:

1. Rack from carboy at FG to corny keg and chill down to 34F.
2. Hook up CO2 and hit it with 40psi, bleeding off O2 in the headspace a few times.
3. Lay the keg flat in my large chest freezer (34F).
4. Pick up and shake the devil out of it 4 or 5 times throughout the day
5. Relocate to my kegerator and bleed off CO2 from headspace
6. Put Co2 back on at 10 or 12psi and start serving.

My hefeweizen gives me 1800 fingers of foam to one hangnail of beer, and has since I burst carbonated 3 days ago. The Kolsch was more manageable, and the belgian blonde made for some beautiful pours (though still lacking in the carbonic sharpness that I wanted). Draft line is 6 feet and the hef POURS straight foam (it isn't due to my glass being not cold enough).

At this point, it's becoming tempting to start bottling most of my beers again. I even used my erlenmeyer to "decant" the hef tonight so I could actually pour it to my serving glass in reasonable time! Any thoughts or opinions on my methods?

 

[day_trippr]

First, I would say your carbonation method is highly variable as to results. You might consider simply setting "chart pressure" for a couple of weeks (still less than bottle conditioning) and see how you feel about the beer when it's more properly carbonated.

Second, if you're keeping a 3 volume beer on tap your dispensing system needs to be tuned for it lest you lose all of the carbonation to that 1800 fingers of foam thing. 6 feet of beer line is definitely not going to work at 3 volumes. Take a look here...

Cheers!

[ps] This could probably be moved to the Bottling And Kegging forum...

 

[bracconiere]

could always naturally carb in the kegs....

 

[Still Brewn]

I have never bottled anything but leftovers and have been brewing since 2007. I have burst carbed, set to serving pressure and have keg carbed..... my opinion on it is that setting to serving pressure and letting carb for a couple of weeks yeilds the best results. You can shorten this time by connecting the gas line to the tap output so long as it doesn't leak any gas, spray with soapy water to test before leaving. I have 3 kegs that I can use this method with and can shorten the carbing time down to around 3-4 days. Be sure to use the correct volume table and pressure for your beer and set to the proper serving pressure. I have also always noticed a difference in carbonic bite even after a week or more even on ones I have Burst carbed with ones that have for sure had the proper carbonation. Taste them all in a few weeks with the proper settings before you give up.
Burst carbing always seems to over carbonate and waste beer and CO2.

Time is your friend just like the rest of the brewing process.

Double check your refrigerator/kegerator temperature. If you are using a different cooler or places in the cooler for both of them it will make a difference.

Tap beer is different from bottled and will cause the release of more CO2 than a bottle, you can compensate by using the proper length and size of hose and a flow control tap.

 

[luckybeagle]

Thanks for the responses! Looks like I've got some reading and learning to do...

Maybe I will come across this in my research but I thought I'd ask just in case: When carbonating a keg the "slow" way (i.e. NOT burst carbing), can I just pressurize it to my ideal volume level and let it sit at room temp for a couple weeks, then hook up and reduce to serving temp? Or does it need to be under constant pressure the whole time?

 

[Dland]

It will carb up more quickly at colder temperature, as gas dissolves better in cold liquid.

You can leave it pressurized at desired volume for a couple of weeks though. Most leave it at pressure the whole time, but you also can hook up the CO2 for a hit once or twice a day if you don't want to leave the pressure on, if you suspect a leak or something.

Also, you should look into spunding. Sounds fancy, but it just means letting the last bit of CO2 produced during fermentaion carb up your kegs. You just need a gauge, add a valve for convienience.

 

[balrog]

Carbing in keg to me seems to be rough at first and finer with time
It's like the CO2 bubbles are bigger in the beginning
And 6' ain't never gonna work. Certainly not for 3 vols CO2. Way too short.
One man's thoughts--more time, more hose.

 

[Dland]

If you don't want to run coils of hose for better pours, these work well:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/inline-flow-control-compensator.html

 

[luckybeagle]

If you don't want to run coils of hose for better pours, these work well:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/inline-flow-control-compensator.html

I really like the look and sound of this! Being able to adjust and adapt based on beer style just doesn't seem possible by swapping for a longer hose and never changing it. Since I brew more than just one or two beers, this seems like the right solution... thanks!

I have thought about spunding, and almost spiesed my last Belgian in the keg... but I was too impatient and just hooked it up to the gas right away. I may experiment with this, too!

 

[bracconiere]

Or does it need to be under constant pressure the whole time?

yes it has to have constant pressure...

 

[luckybeagle]

https://www.amazon.com/Perlick-Faucet-Control-Model-650SS/dp/B074D9YBR9/ref=asc_df_B074D9YBR9/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312132020109&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15443556072791694587&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033026&hvtargid=pla-473549374714&psc=1

Would this work instead of the inline valve? I need another tap anyway...

 

[bracconiere]

https://www.amazon.com/Perlick-Faucet-Control-Model-650SS/dp/B074D9YBR9/ref=asc_df_B074D9YBR9/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312132020109&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15443556072791694587&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033026&hvtargid=pla-473549374714&psc=1

Would this work instead of the inline valve? I need another tap anyway...

damn, you asked a question and, now i think i learned something! is that little thing on the side a varible resistance lever? maybe it's time i ditch my picnic taps!

 

[FloppyKnockers]

People will knock burst carbing most out of all other methods. I do it a lot because I do have my method dialed. Haven't had an overcarb since I don't know when. I will share it now.

Chill the keg to serving temp. About 8 hours minimum works.

After it's chilled this is a great time to pull off a half pint to de-sludge it.

Hook up only gas to gas in, set at 25 psi, and lay keg on its side. (gas post up)

Hold the gas line up to prevent backflow and Rick with your foot for 2 min 5 sec, no more. (this can change 5 sec +/- depending on head's pace in keg). Rock to the rhythm of a washing mashine. This seems to be a good tempo to follow.

Set keg back up, disconnect gas line, and purge the extra gas from the keg. A good idea to hit the qd and spray any liquid that may be in the line.

Hook up serving line and enjoy. It may be a little undercarbed, but it sure beat your hangnail fingerblast analogy

 

[luckybeagle]

damn, you asked a question and, now i think i learned something! is that little thing on the side a varible resistance lever? maybe it's time i ditch my picnic taps!

Ordered! Will post before and after pours on Thursday (gotta love PRIME). This is the best hef I've made, 5th attempt on this style, so I'm excited to set the right pressure on the regulator for 3 volumes and use this little dealy to get a nice pour going.

Floppyknockers (lol at the name... swing low sweet chariots, fried eggs hanging on a nail, I can go on...): That sounds very similar to my method but a little more tame! I think I may continue the burst carbing technique for non hefeweizens, and when time is an issue (it usually is).

 

[kevin58]

That's a lot of work to carbonate a keg. I hook my keg up to the CO2 at serving pressure from the start and let it sit in the keezer for a week to 10 days. No turning the pressure up and down, shaking, rocking and rolling. The beer benefits from the time spent conditioning as well.

 

[bracconiere]

was looking on ebay saw this....lol

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Beer-Tap-F...497015?hash=item46858faf77:g:iEgAAOSwmAJdKO~E

 

[luckybeagle]

was looking on ebay saw this....lol

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Beer-Tap-F...497015?hash=item46858faf77:g:iEgAAOSwmAJdKO~E

hahahahahaha! Don't show that to my wife or she might use it as leverage for getting her honeydo list completed.

 

[Still Brewn]

People will knock burst carbing most out of all other methods. I do it a lot because I do have my method dialed. Haven't had an overcarb since I don't know when. I will share it now.

Chill the keg to serving temp. About 8 hours minimum works.

After it's chilled this is a great time to pull off a half pint to de-sludge it.

Hook up only gas to gas in, set at 25 psi, and lay keg on its side. (gas post up)

Hold the gas line up to prevent backflow and Rick with your foot for 2 min 5 sec, no more. (this can change 5 sec +/- depending on head's pace in keg). Rock to the rhythm of a washing mashine. This seems to be a good tempo to follow.

Set keg back up, disconnect gas line, and purge the extra gas from the keg. A good idea to hit the qd and spray any liquid that may be in the line.

Hook up serving line and enjoy. It may be a little undercarbed, but it sure beat your hangnail fingerblast analogy

Not knocking burst carbing I just think taking the time yields a better taste. I still burst carb on the occasion where I have a lite beer for friends that drink it are coming over. Like this weekend I will have to do. I usually cold crash for 2 days, fill the keg and burst carb right away for those ones.
Your method is pretty good although I have never gone up to 25 lbs, usually 20. I guess I'm lucky, I have 3 kegs I don't have to turn upside down to get gas to the bottom of the liquid. Using this method really speeds things up. I will have to try it at 25 lbs this weekend.

 

[bracconiere]

hahahahahaha! Don't show that to my wife or she might use it as leverage for getting her honeydo list completed.

LOL, or lose weight, right!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

That's a lot of work to carbonate a keg. I hook my keg up to the CO2 at serving pressure from the start and let it sit in the keezer for a week to 10 days. No turning the pressure up and down, shaking, rocking and rolling. The beer benefits from the time spent conditioning as well.

I agree! I used to burst carb. Even with burst carbing it take a few days for the carbonation level to even out. I just set my keg in the fridge, connect it at serving pressure (around 11 PSI) and in 5 days the carbonation level is pretty good...and in the meantime the yeast has started to clear and the beer has improved. The carbonation might improve a tad over a few days, but I don't understand the people that say it takes 2 weeks.

 

[doug293cz]

I agree! I used to burst carb. Even with burst carbing it take a few days for the carbonation level to even out. I just set my keg in the fridge, connect it at serving pressure (around 11 PSI) and in 5 days the carbonation level is pretty good...and in the meantime the yeast has started to clear and the beer has improved. The carbonation might improve a tad over a few days, but I don't understand the people that say it takes 2 weeks.

Depends on how fussy you are about having the carb level be precise. CO2 absorption rate decreases exponentially with time (at constant pressure and temperature.) If we say that the beer is adequately carbed at 95% of target carb level, and it takes 3 weeks to get there, then after one week you will be at 63% of target level. This may be good enough for some people to think the beer is acceptably carbed to drink. After two weeks, you will be at 87% of target level, and even more people will think it's acceptable to drink. After three weeks, you will be at 95% of target, and most people would probably find this level acceptable. Four weeks gives you 98%, and five weeks 99+%. From this you can see why the time required for "set and forget" carbing gets stated over a wide range of time.

In an exponential rate decay situation (like above) the time to get to 63% complete is known as the time constant. In the example above, we assumed a time constant of one week. The actual time constant for beer carbonation may not be one week, but it's definitely more than a few days, and it's less than ten days. The time constant also varies with the volume of beer in the keg, the surface area of the beer exposed to gas, and probably the temp of the beer.

Brew on

 

[Still Brewn]

The carbonation might improve a tad over a few days, but I don't understand the people that say it takes 2 weeks.

I'm not saying the carbonation improves.... in my opinion the carbonic bite and general flavor of the beer of the beer improves over several weeks. I can't say I understand all of the science behind this wonderful thing we call beer but from my personal experience I have found that waiting the 10 days to 2 weeks lends to a better beer even if I have used a burst carb on the beer. Try for yourself make 2 Identical beers burst carb one and wait the 2 weeks on the other at serving pressure. Plan it so they are ready to drink at the same time and see if you can tell the difference. I'm by far no beer expert but in my brews I can tell the difference. I have a feeling it has something to do with the amount of time the brew has been sitting in carbonic acid but then again in no expert.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

If we say that the beer is adequately carbed at 95% of target carb level, and it takes 3 weeks to get there, then after one week you will be at 63% of target level.

Do you have a resource that says it take a beer 3 weeks to be carbed to 95%? I guess I don't know how to judge a 63% carbonation rate, but I just poured a glass of a beer I kegged on Saturday and now, 4.5 days later, it has a fairly thick lacy head with enough carbonation to maintain a head for several minutes. It is not quite where I want it to be, but in a few days I expect it will be pretty much where I expect the carbonation level to be. This beer is at 38F in my fridge with the PSI set to 12 PSI. 3 weeks to carb does not match my experience.

I'm not saying the carbonation improves.... in my opinion the carbonic bite and general flavor of the beer of the beer improves over several weeks. I can't say I understand all of the science behind this wonderful thing we call beer but from my personal experience I have found that waiting the 10 days to 2 weeks lends to a better beer even if I have used a burst carb on the beer.

I don't fully understand the science of beer aging, but I agree that something is going on there. I brew pale ales that are solid after 2 weeks on tap. I have an Oatmeal Stout and a Rye Amber in the 7.5% range, and they are best around 2 months on tap. This year I brewed my first batches of an Imperial Stout in the 10% range. They really improve over the first 3 to 4 months, and the flavor continues to evolve (one batch is 7 months old, one is 2.5 months old). Maybe that is because I am a bad brewer or I am using a bad recipe, but I see the same in "99 rating" $20 per bottle beers that are better after a year of storage.

My personal feelings lie somewhere between the "14 days from grain to glass" and the "gotta age it for at least a year" camps.

 

[day_trippr]

Big thread on keg carbonation here.

And a chart that perfectly reflects my experience wrt "set and forget" carbonation timing...

Cheers!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

And a chart that perfectly reflects my experience wrt "set and forget" carbonation timing...

I should probably disclaim a bit. The drawing is not based on any hard data and I agree that the rate of carbonation for any of the methods could be different. It was meant to illustrate some very high level points. The green line probably should have been a bit more steep, probably closer to 1 volume at 4 days or so.​

Anybody have real data on this? It does not match my experience.

 

[day_trippr]

"Real data"? No. Anecdotal testimony? Plenty. As I said my experience fits that green curve perfectly, 2.5 weeks to "excellent".

btw, nobody cares how you carbonate and what suits your fancy. Do whatever...

Cheers!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

btw, nobody cares how you carbonate and what suits your fancy. Do whatever...

I just ask that people not make up fake data, and then put it in a chart like it is real so that others share the fake data.

 

[day_trippr]

That's more than cynical given you already read the explanation behind Bobby's graph...

Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

I should probably disclaim a bit. The drawing is not based on any hard data and I agree that the rate of carbonation for any of the methods could be different. It was meant to illustrate some very high level points. The green line probably should have been a bit more steep, probably closer to 1 volume at 4 days or so.​

Anybody have real data on this? It does not match my experience.

I just ask that people not make up fake data, and then put it in a chart like it is real so that others share the fake data.

You are arguing that your individual anecdotal observations should be given more credence than the anecdotal observations of many individuals, some with way more brewing and judging experience than you. Sorry, but you will not convince many people with that argument. I mention judging experience since until you have demonstrated that you can judge actual carbonation levels, we have no way of knowing if you are even sensitive enough to accurately estimate carb level of a random beer, or discern the difference between beers carbonated at 2.3 vs. 2.5 volumes.

I haven't seen any real experimental data that would allow the determination of the force carb time constant. But, if you want to go and collect the data, I can tell you how to go about it.

I agree that the green line in the posted chart should start out steeper in order to match a true exponential process. It should also not start at 0, to match the fact that beer has some carbonation at the end of fermentation. But, as a conceptual chart it expresses the ideas in a reasonably correct way.

Brew on

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I am just trying to share my experience with the OP that is asking about kegging and having issues. I have been kegging beers for over 20 years on the homebrew scale I have personal experience with using the "set and forget" method once or twice a month recently. I would be curious to see data on CO2 absorption rates (I could only find charts on temp and pressure, but nothing on absorption rate).

• Rolling the Keg under High Pressure: This used to be my process. I am sure it helps to speed up the CO2 process. I just found that it resulted in fizzy young beer that still was not really ready to drink for several days to a week so I stopped messing around.
• High Pressure for 2 Days: Honestly I cannot recall the last time I did this. With my setup I can only connect my kegs at one pressure so I could only try this if I did not have any other kegs full (or wanted to disconnect them). I am sure this would speed up the process. Over carbonation is a risk and most beers still need time at least for the yeast to settle out.
• Set at Serving Pressure: This is my standard process. I put my kegs in the fridge and connect them at serving pressure which is around 12 PSI. Around 4 or 5 days the beers are carbed to the level where they are enjoyable to drink and at around 7 days the beer is fully carbonated. Most beers will improve over the next week or two as they clear and age, but I do not notice a significant improvement in carbonation beyond 7 days. An upside of this process is that there is no chance of over carbonation.