Kegerator Problems - Too much head

[uatuba]

Well, after a looooong hiatus from kegging, I finally decided to start up again.

When I first started, I had major problems with foaming using my picnic tap, but after swapping out to 3/16" lines (about 8.5 ft), all was well. I finally decided to break down and buy some faucets, and after 20 minutes of some slight modifications to the refrigerator door, I had two Perlick 525s installed. After checking with a beer line balancing calculator, I determined I needed 10 feet of 1/4" vinyl tubing.

Now I'm getting too much head. I wouldn't say it's "foamy," but there is definitely too much head and it does seem like the pour may be too much. I had this problem with the picnic taps using 6' of line previously and followed the calculator's recommendations to fix it.

Any suggestions? Thanks!

 

[day_trippr]

[...]After checking with a beer line balancing calculator, I determined I needed 10 feet of 1/4" vinyl tubing. [...]

99 of 100 calculators are defective.

Here's the one that actually works...

http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

Cheers!

 

[uatuba]

There's no freaking way that's correct. 43 feet my ass.

I appreciate the response, but something is obviously defective.

 

[Kingbogart]

Sadly that is in fact that one that works most correctly. 1/4" diameter is generally used for long runs, because it has less restriction. Think places like bars and brewpubs. Notice if you switch it to 3/16 it's about 1/4 of the length required. The higher flow in the bigger diameter allows for faster pours and more foam. Longer lines will reduce that problem. I don't personally have a long a run to verify if 43ft is in fact correct. But I do know that for about 12 psi I need 10ish feet of 3/16 to reduce foaming.

 

[day_trippr]

There's no freaking way that's correct. 43 feet my ass.

I appreciate the response, but something is obviously defective.

Of course.

It's your 1/4" id tubing...

 

[uatuba]

I realize that 1/4" is bigger and less restrictive. I also saw a guy with a portable system that uses 6.5 feet of unchilled 1/4" beer lines (the kegs sit in a bucket of ice water), and he has no foam.

Let's assume the calculator you linked--which is a massive deviation from every other calculator I can find, including from sites and software that have spot on calculations in every other area of the brewing world--is correct.

How do I get my beer to pour properly with a reasonable length of 1/4" tubing?

EDIT: I opened the site on my computer rather than on my phone, and the values are comparable with the values I'm getting from other calculators. I'm getting really weird numbers on my phone (43 feet), so I'm going to assume the PC numbers are correct, which is how my system is setup.

Any thoughts?

 

[jsprinceiii]

I realize that 1/4" is bigger and less restrictive. I also saw a guy with a portable system that uses 6.5 feet of unchilled 1/4" beer lines (the kegs sit in a bucket of ice water), and he has no foam.
Let's assume the calculator you linked--which is a massive deviation from every other calculator I can find, including from sites and software that have spot on calculations in every other area of the brewing world--is correct.
How do I get my beer to pour properly with a reasonable length of 1/4" tubing?

The only other way is to reduce pressure..
3/16" is the best route!

 

[Kingbogart]

Make sure the taps and lines are cold, warm beer generally wants to foam. You could lower your pressure. Foam at the end could indicate the system is out of balance, meaning that at the tap, the pressure isn't zero. Your other option is to add restriction, that's where adding line would help, but other people add swizzle sticks to their dip tubes to prevent long lengths of line. Discussed here

 

[uatuba]

I've seen the swizzle stick trick but forgot about it. That may be my next attempt. The lines and taps are cold...they're all inside a refrigerator.

 

[BigFloyd]

I've seen the swizzle stick trick but forgot about it. That may be my next attempt. The lines and taps are cold...they're all inside a refrigerator.

Or you could do the simple (and proven) solution of switching to 3/16" line. Start with 12ft, see how that works and trim back a bit at a time if needed.

I run 12ft of 3/16", 38*F and 12psi. It allows me to easily control the amount of foam by the tilt of the glass.

 

[uatuba]

Or you could do the simple (and proven) solution of switching to 3/16" line. Start with 12ft, see how that works and trim back a bit at a time if needed.



I run 12ft of 3/16", 38*F and 12psi. It allows me to easily control the amount of foam by the tilt of the glass.

It's not exactly simple when you have 1/4" shanks. The calculator that was linked as being "correct" gives the values I'm using in my setup. Also, I had fits with 3/16" line, so I would not exactly call it a "proven" solution.

 

[day_trippr]

[…]
EDIT: I opened the site on my computer rather than on my phone, and the values are comparable with the values I'm getting from other calculators. I'm getting really weird numbers on my phone (43 feet), so I'm going to assume the PC numbers are correct, which is how my system is setup.

Any thoughts?

Many.

Go back and read your first post again, and pay attention to what happened when you switched to 3/16" id lines. There's a big fat clue right there.

And if you're getting comparable values as from other calculators, you are doing something wrong.

Finally, try reading the full page at Mike's site.
There's a free education included with his awesome calculator...

Cheers!

 

[uatuba]

My first post wasn't clear--I always had 3/16 lines, but they were too short. It should have said "the" instead of "to."

And the values are comparable. Not identical, but comparable.

 

[jsprinceiii]

It's not exactly simple when you have 1/4" shanks. The calculator that was linked as being "correct" gives the values I'm using in my setup. Also, I had fits with 3/16" line, so I would not exactly call it a "proven" solution.

3/16 ID will fit on 1/4" shanks.. Carefully Heat the tubing up in hot/boiling water by dipping end into water..

 

[uatuba]

I'll give it a shot...I still have those lines.

 

[uatuba]

Update: before I started screwing with this, I decided to spiral the 1/4" line up the inside of the refrigerator. I'm getting perfect pours now--the only change I made was the spiral. So either that or the 24 hour wait made a big difference.

 

[jsprinceiii]

Depending on the line length, and height the beer is traveling in the spiral,
it would add additional friction. I would be surprised if it add much..
Regardless.. The resulting outcome is what you wanted. :rockin:

 

[uatuba]

I wouldn't think it would make that much of a difference either. It probably just needed to settle after I changed the lines and such.

 

[beerme70]

I went with 10' of 1/4 inch beer line. I coil the lines up and set them on top of the kegs to prevent the beer from having to travel "uphill" any more than it has to. I also run my lines through copper tubing that extends about 8 inches into the kegerator and up into the tower, held in place by pipe insulation and expanding foam. The copper wicks the cold all the way up the tower, keeping the beer the same temperature all the way to the taps. That's key. I average about 9 seconds per pour, and the pours are great!

 

[JuanMoore]

There's no freaking way that's correct. 43 feet my ass.

I appreciate the response, but something is obviously defective.

The calculator works great and is not defective, but you have to know how to use it. It doesn't calculate how long to make your lines to get a good pour, it calculates how long the lines need to be to achieve a desired flow rate, and it does so very accurately. You have to choose the flow rate, entered as the time in seconds it takes to pour a pint. What flow rate you need to prevent excessive foaming is determined primarily by the beer temp, and to a lesser degree the carbonation level. Very cold beer (<36°) carbed up to 2.7 vol can flow at a 6-7 sec pint fill time without issue (which is what all of the other flawed calculators like the other one you used assume). Raise the temp a couple degrees and you need something closer to a 10-11 sec pint fill time to prevent excessive foaming. I don't know what flow rate you input into the calculator, but I can pretty much guarantee that the 43' it came up with is exactly what it would take to achieve that flow rate.

I realize that 1/4" is bigger and less restrictive. I also saw a guy with a portable system that uses 6.5 feet of unchilled 1/4" beer lines (the kegs sit in a bucket of ice water), and he has no foam.

I'd bet good money that he uses that set up at a serving pressure much lower than the carbonation pressure, and only for short periods of time, like the duration of a party. I've done the same thing successfully for parties. Try that long term and you end up with flat beer and pockets of gas forming in the lines between pours.

It's not exactly simple when you have 1/4" shanks. The calculator that was linked as being "correct" gives the values I'm using in my setup. Also, I had fits with 3/16" line, so I would not exactly call it a "proven" solution.

Unless you're using shanks with the built in barbs and rigid barrier tubing, getting 3/16" line onto your shanks should be easy. A few seconds in boiling water will soften 3/16" vinyl enough that it slides right onto 1/4" barbs.

Update: before I started screwing with this, I decided to spiral the 1/4" line up the inside of the refrigerator. I'm getting perfect pours now--the only change I made was the spiral. So either that or the 24 hour wait made a big difference.

That short length of 1/4" line shouldn't work very well unless you're storing the beer ice cold and have the beer carbed relatively low. That's assuming you have the serving pressure set at the carbonation equilibrium pressure though. If you dropped the serving pressure it would work fine, but then your beer would eventually start going flat, and you'd likely get pockets of gas forming in the line between pours.

 

[fivepointslow]

I run 1/4" at 3 feet and never had a issue until my last beer which foams like no other. Until I lengthen the line I pour at 3psi. I believe it has to do with the type of beer you are serving.

 

[uatuba]

The calculator works great and is not defective, but you have to know how to use it. It doesn't calculate how long to make your lines to get a good pour, it calculates how long the lines need to be to achieve a desired flow rate, and it does so very accurately. You have to choose the flow rate, entered as the time in seconds it takes to pour a pint. What flow rate you need to prevent excessive foaming is determined primarily by the beer temp, and to a lesser degree the carbonation level. Very cold beer (<36°) carbed up to 2.7 vol can flow at a 6-7 sec pint fill time without issue (which is what all of the other flawed calculators like the other one you used assume). Raise the temp a couple degrees and you need something closer to a 10-11 sec pint fill time to prevent excessive foaming. I don't know what flow rate you input into the calculator, but I can pretty much guarantee that the 43' it came up with is exactly what it would take to achieve that flow rate.



I'd bet good money that he uses that set up at a serving pressure much lower than the carbonation pressure, and only for short periods of time, like the duration of a party. I've done the same thing successfully for parties. Try that long term and you end up with flat beer and pockets of gas forming in the lines between pours.



Unless you're using shanks with the built in barbs and rigid barrier tubing, getting 3/16" line onto your shanks should be easy. A few seconds in boiling water will soften 3/16" vinyl enough that it slides right onto 1/4" barbs.



That short length of 1/4" line shouldn't work very well unless you're storing the beer ice cold and have the beer carbed relatively low. That's assuming you have the serving pressure set at the carbonation equilibrium pressure though. If you dropped the serving pressure it would work fine, but then your beer would eventually start going flat, and you'd likely get pockets of gas forming in the line between pours.

Did you miss the part where I said that on the PC, I am getting 10ish feet from the linked website?

I'm serving between 12 and 13 PSI and it works wonderfully.