Keg beer seems to get worse with age?

[jturman35]

New to brewing but I have done 3 batches to date. I’m wondering if something is going on with my keg system, everything is brand new except kegs are used. Obviously cleansed everything with PBW/Starsan. I did a Brewers Best Red ale which came up a gal short. This was my first brew and i didn’t account for boil off. Beer tasted tangy from day one and hasn’t gotten better with age. Just accepted this beer will not be that good.

Did a Brewers Best Black IPA which tasted perfectly fine from the day i kegged. Still taste them same 3 Weeks later.

I just brewed my first Nut Brown Ale AG BIAB. Tasted fantastic i let this one carb at 12 lbs for two weeks. Tasted great and after about 3 weeks started to get a tangy/sour taste. Don’t have the greater palette but this beer should be getting better not worse. Any ideas what to look for? All of my equip is brand new. Used premium beer line and new o2 line. Taps are brand new.

 

[trav77]

Can you give us some info on your sanitation practices? The more detail the better. A sour/tangy flavour that develops with time suggests some infection.

 

[jturman35]

I️ soak keg in PBW for about 30 mins then clean out real good. First time using these kegs so I pull dip tube and all pieces out and scrub with toothbrush. Before racking beer into kegs I️ always soak with starsan.

Don’t get me wrong the beer is drinkable. But it seems to be going in the wrong direction. I can taste a tart/tangy taste at the end. I don’t recall this last week. My wife said she could taste it as well.

 

[PADave]

If it is infection, it doesn't have to start in the keg, could be anywhere post boil. You sure it's not the infamous extract twang? I know when I started brewing and was doing extract kits, the beer never seemed right. Many people brew great brews with extract, but as a beginner I couldn't. Yes, they were drinkable, but nothing great. Since going to AG they have been much better. Maybe try using a different brand of extract kit? The longer the extract sits, the more susceptible it is to being off. My guess would be that the hops in the black IPA masked this flavor, but the Brown Ale has less hops to hide the twang?

 

[jturman35]

The red ale definitely has the extract twang. Brewed it on Aug 27th and it’s not getting any better.

The Nut Brown Ale was done on Oct 8th and kegged Nov 4th, this was my first AG and is starting to acquire the same twang.

I primary all of my beers for 30days in a temp controlled fermenter/Freezer.

 

[jalc6927]

Also look into a late boil extract method

Adding half the extract at boil abs the other half at flameout

 

[trav77]

I️ soak keg in PBW for about 30 mins then clean out real good. First time using these kegs so I pull dip tube and all pieces out and scrub with toothbrush. Before racking beer into kegs I️ always soak with starsan.

Don’t get me wrong the beer is drinkable. But it seems to be going in the wrong direction. I can taste a tart/tangy taste at the end. I don’t recall this last week. My wife said she could taste it as well.

Hmm. Hard to say. You can rule out "extract twang" since your latest is all-grain BIAB and it tasted good initially. I would go through your entire cold-side process and make sure everything is clean and sanitary. All the way from chilling to transfer to the fermenter to kegging. Even things like your ball valve (if you have one on your kettle) can have a lot of gunk accumulate on the inside.

Also, as a side note, probably not necessary to leave it in primary for a month. I typically cold crash as soon as FG is reached and get it kegged up right away. That may be contributing to your issue if you are picking up an infection before primary. Allowing it to sit at fermentation temps for longer will let the bugs chew away on your beer for longer. Still, find the root cause.

 

[thehaze]

Which yeast did you use for the " tangy " tasting beers? Or for all of them 3?

 

[jturman35]

Nottingham on the Brown Ale don’t think it ever went over 69-70. Can’t remember on the red Ale extract.

 

[hafmpty]

I’m not a LODO guy but post fermentation oxygen can have a pretty dramatic effect overtime. Filling the kegs without an oxygen purge (or just a few pressure valve pulls) has been something I’ve noticed can change the character of my beers in a fairly short period of time. Some beers more than others. I’m in the process of reworking my system to remove as much post-fermentation oxygen pickup as possible. You might check that. Oxidation flavors can be different depending on the beer.

As for an infection...since everything is new and it seems like you do a pretty through routine...you might try hitting it with a different sanitizer. In a recent episode of Experimental Brewing Danny Conn mentioned that he had a particular off-flavor he couldn’t get rid of. To finally kill it he changed his sanitizer for a time from Star-San to Iodophor. That solved his problem. He still uses Star-San, but will switch it up every now and then just to keep the bacteria on their toes so to speak.

Being that this is your 3rd batch you are quickly realizing the truth about homebrewing...it’s a PITA...a fun PITA...but still a PITA sometimes. Good luck.

 

[jturman35]

Yea I’m starting to question if I purged the keg enough after the initial racking. I will see if this off flavor continues to increase. Hopefully it will decline.

No joke this has been expensive to say the least. I spent $1675 this am for a brew boss!

 

[jalc6927]

I bought one as well today

Hopefully the automation will prove worth the expense

 

[jturman35]

I just remembered when I cold crashed the beer got dangerously close to freezing. The top 2-3” of the carboy was a little slushy like but not too bad. Would this cause off flavors over time?

 

[hafmpty]

I just remembered when I cold crashed the beer got dangerously close to freezing. The top 2-3” of the carboy was a little slushy like but not too bad. Would this cause off flavors over time?

No. I’ve frozen a few beers and they’ve all proven fine once they thawed. There’s a whole style based on freezing beers (eis-beers). They are quite tasty.

 

[MaryB]

Infection somewhere in the system. PBW is not that great of a cleaner for used kegs, I use BLC and it has removed some nasty stuff from what looked like clean used kegs... I use it double strength(wear gloves and eye protection!) on all new(used) kegs I get in. Since I use pinlocks they are pretty dang old and from the days I worked fast food in the 80's I know coke syrup grows some nasty fungus! Prior maintenance person never scrubbed the bulk tank we used for coke syrup. When IU opened the big lid I almost puked. We had to dump 300 gallons of syrup... 2" thick layer of mold on the top of the tank....

 

[The_Bishop]

When you disassembled your new-old kegs, did you replace all the 'soft' parts? Anything rubber?

 

[brewbama]

What temp is your kegerator? I’ve been pondering that since our beer is not pasteurized it may spoil over time if stored or served higher than 38*F.

 

[jturman35]

I have some oxi clean maybe I should just use that for cleaning my kegs? I keep my temp at 41 degrees. I have not replaced any o rings yet. I have 3 kegs on tap. I actually pulled 2 pints of the Nut brown last night and the flavor seemed like it improved.

Heck maybe it’s just my screwed up taste buds, but my wife also noticed it the other night. I would say my palette is sensitive, I bought a 6 pack of Arrogant Bastard and could taste a huge difference from the first can to the last can over a 2 week period. The first two cans had a overly bitter aftertaste that mellowed when I got to the last two cans.

The BB Black IPA I kegged on 9/25/17 was delicious. The tap handle was a bit hard to pull because I have laid off drinking this one. I guess they gum up if not used often.

 

[trav77]

I have some oxi clean maybe I should just use that for cleaning my kegs? I keep my temp at 41 degrees. I have not replaced any o rings yet. I have 3 kegs on tap. I actually pulled 2 pints of the Nut brown last night and the flavor seemed like it improved.

Heck maybe it’s just my screwed up taste buds, but my wife also noticed it the other night. I would say my palette is sensitive, I bought a 6 pack of Arrogant Bastard and could taste a huge difference from the first can to the last can over a 2 week period. The first two cans had a overly bitter aftertaste that mellowed when I got to the last two cans.

The BB Black IPA I kegged on 9/25/17 was delicious. The tap handle was a bit hard to pull because I have laid off drinking this one. I guess they gum up if not used often.

Couple more thoughts after reading some replies:

I doubt its oxidation. Oxidation usually results in loss of flavour and cardboard like flavours. It doesn't result in sour/tangy unless there is an accompanying bacterial or wild yeast infection. Also most of the homebrew world does relatively little to control oxidation to a great extent and is not broadly suffering from tangy beers. Furthermore your storage temp will accelerate infection if it's higher vs fridge temp but your beer should be shelf stable at room temp for quite some time if you have proper sanitation. I still say you have some source of infection on your cold side.

Your reply above on tap gunk has me curious. I assume you have rear sealing faucets. Have you disassembled them and cleaned thoroughly? They are horrible for bacterial buildup and will easily affect the beer. I noticed a huge difference by switching to forward sealing faucets. Both in avoiding the annoying sticky tap but also in quality.

 

[jalc6927]

Maybe already asked

Have you cleaned your gas lines? Maybe then have mold or something in them

 

[PADave]

The BB Black IPA I kegged on 9/25/17 was delicious. The tap handle was a bit hard to pull because I have laid off drinking this one. I guess they gum up if not used often.

Buy good forward sealing faucets. Perlick or Intertap. If things are gumming up, guess what's getting in your beer.

 

[hafmpty]

Couple more thoughts after reading some replies:

I doubt its oxidation. Oxidation usually results in loss of flavour and cardboard like flavours.

I'm not convinced it's oxidation either. Especially as he's described more of his system/process/etc. It'd be helpful to taste the beer (though from the OP's description...I'm not sure I'd want to ). I've found that people describe flavors differently. So while he might say "tangy" others might taste it and say...I get more X-Y-Z.

It could very well be an infection...especially since the rubber o-rings haven't been replaced. That should definitely get bumped to the top of the list.

 

[jturman35]

I have stainless front sealing faucets. The shank mounts on the coffin and I can completely remove the tap from the front. My keezer is less than 3 months so mold is not the issue.

 

[jturman35]

The gas lines are less than 4 months old. Everything is brand new as keezer was built in Aug. I have three Krome SS forward sealing faucets. This is the first beer ran through this system. I also don’t have tap handles yet which prob why it was a little harder to pull to pour.

 

[bob1852]

Cold crash process?

You can get air sucked backed into the fermenter through the air lock when you cold crash. If your fermentation chamber is as dirty as mine, that's a likely source for infection...

 

[jturman35]

Yes, I had suckback on my first two batches. Actually think this may have given my first red Ale it’s bad off flavor. I learned from this mistake and put alum foil over the Brown Ale when I cold crashed.

My fermentation freezer is in pretty rough shape I might add. Anyone else have problems with nats? I have a Whisky barrel stout fermenting as we speak. When I pulled my FG sample after a month I left off the blow off tube. I did notice a nat floating in the top.View attachment 547161

 

[jalc6927]

Does this happen with every tap? If so, idk?

 

[ancientmariner52]

Urk! I think I see part of your problem. Those black patches on your freezer are mold. Swab that thing down with some bleach, and see if they don't go away. This may not be THE source of your problem, but it certainly has the potential to make trouble.

 

[The_Bishop]

Gnats? Or Fruit flies? Either way... a vector for infection.

Yes, I had suckback on my first two batches. Actually think this may have given my first red Ale it’s bad off flavor. I learned from this mistake and put alum foil over the Brown Ale when I cold crashed.

My fermentation freezer is in pretty rough shape I might add. Anyone else have problems with nats? I have a Whisky barrel stout fermenting as we speak. When I pulled my FG sample after a month I left off the blow off tube. I did notice a nat floating in the top.View attachment 547161

 

[jturman35]

Gnats! They seem to like the humid 68 fermenter.