Altbier Kaiser Alt

[Kaiser]

Your original recipe includes both chalk and baking soda. I'm interested in brewing this beer as closely as I can, but instead using only pickling lime to increase alkalinity, keeping sodium levels significantly lower. This chalk approach generally follows the advice of Martin Brungard, and I think even derives from some of your experiments regarding solubility of chalk.

The recipe is what it is. I checked my notes and I have even added chalk and baking soda to the sparge water. It can be argued that those two salts should be omitted from the sparge water, but I was following a purity law philosophy that if any water treatment is done it is done to all water. Technically chalk doesn't conform with the purity law unless it is dissolved with CO2.

Ever since I suggested the idea that pickling lime could be used as an alternative to chalk or even dissolving chalk with CO2 it has gained quite some popularity among some water experts. My experiments have shown that there are issues with chalk but those issues are not regarding flavor but regarding its effectiveness in raising pH. In many experiments I have shown that the utilization of chalk is about 50% and as long as your water calculator or spreadsheet get that correct there is no issue with using chalk. I actually prefer using chalk over pickling lime when it comes to building water. It's safer to handle. My work has shown that there might be a limit by how much chalk is able to raise the pH but we also know that even very dark beers don't need nearly as much alkalinity as we thought they would.

So I'd go with the shown water treatment first and make modifications on subsequent batches.

I don't think that the Sodium level is overly high. It's about the same level they have in Duesseldorf and I doubt that the brewers there remove sodium from their water.

I'm leaning toward an "Amber Malty" profile like Brunwater, when comparing your previous chloride and sulfate levels.

The recipe comes with a water profile, so why is there a need to take a different target water profile. The water profile I'm giving tries to emulate the Duesseldorf water. With that water you should be able to get the desired mash pH. It worked for me but there might be variations in the base malt DI-water-pH that may throw this off. But you won't know that until you dough in.

Kai

 

[lockwom]

Thank you very much for your feedback, Kai!

 

[jamieofthenorth]

I need a little help here. I'm pretty new to all-grain, having only done four BIAB batches before but now I've built a mash tun and am eager to use this recipe on it for the first time. I also just purchased BeerSmith 2 and I'm still learning it. I plugged this recipe into BeerSmith, which is leading to some more questions.

My question is with the decoction steps. Having never done it before, I'm just looking to clarify and hope I'm not going over my head too much since I'm new. I know it's an advanced technique, but I'd like to give it a shot.

Beer Smith 2 gave me the following steps for a five gallon batch after choosing "Decoction Mash, Single" (is that the right option?):
Protein rest - Add 20.48 quarts of water at 136.4F - Step temp 131F - step time 20 minutes
Saccharification - Decoct 5.56 quarts of mash and boil it - Step temp 150F - step time 45 minutes
Mash out - Heat to 169F over 10 minutes - Step temp 169F - step time 10 minutes
Fly sparge 2.83 gallons of water at 168F.

The protein and saccharification steps seem pretty straightforward, but I'm a bit confused on the mash out. How do I achieve the 169F during the mash out? Just add enough strike water until I get the temperature? Or do I do another decoct? When doing BIAB I would just turn up the heat until I got the temperature. And do I really fly sparge? Didn't see that in the original instructions and it seems redundant.

 

[arturo7]

Jamie, Kaiser made an excellent video on decocting. It is posted on his website. Unfortunately, I don't have the link handy.

 

[jamieofthenorth]

Thanks Arturo. I found the videos on YouTube which did indeed answer a lot of questions. My remaining head scratchers have to do with Beersmith 2... specifically why it doesn't give me a volume for the mash out and also why it says to fly sparge (and gives a volume for that). Regardless, I guess I can see a work around. However, I might delay brewing this recipe for now only because I think it would be better to get a few simpler recipes under my belt first.

Post-edit: Aha! I found out what I was doing wrong with Beersmith. Needed to change the label of the mash out step to "decoct". Now it gives me a volume.

 

[Kaiser]

Here are links to the videos: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing#Videos

 

[lockwom]

I brewed this yesterday, violently fermenting away as 1007 usually does.

The double-infusion decoction mashing process took far longer and more equipment juggling than the usual single infusion, but I could detect a noticable aroma change after decocting. I imagine this would be a different beer without those steps. Overall, I'm glad I experimented with a new style, and lookin' forward to it!

Key point: definitely add the 20% fudge factor to the decoction formula. I forgot, and didn't hit mashout temp. So, I only briefly rested before batch sparging to avoid too much conversion at that temp.

 

[johnnytaco]

[/QUOTE]I agree with you--when I bought the book I was hoping it would have more information on the history of what ingredients etc. were used in the styles.....I also don't like that it barely covers any styles. I still use it to get another perspective on common styles I want to try. [/QUOTE]

I think you should check out Radical Brewing by Randy Mosher if you want more on how to make traditional styles from their country of origin. I've read a bunch of beer making books and this one takes the cake, IMHO It is the only brewing book that's taken me more than a day to complete, except Yeast by Jamil Z and Chris White. That one takes a bit to digest the content and figure how to put what I've learned into practice.

 

[adrock430]

I just kegged this up after two weeks @ 34 with gelatin. It's a little on the big side vs. the original recipe (1.058 to 1.012), but man, what a beer. The malt nose is something else, and the body and bitterness are perfect (bittered with sterling). I'm entering this in a comp that is the end of the month as a 7A, I'll let you know how it fairs. Thanks kaiser!

 

[Kaiser]

I'm glad to hear that. Thanks.

 

[lockwom]

Just thought I'd share, I've had this naturally carbonating in the keg for quite some time and just sampled it with some friends. The 1007 is spectacular with this grain bill; this is definitely one of my favorite ambers.

 

[reinstone]

I don't know where he is getting this from. Narziss, German commercial brewing author, mentions that some Alts are brewed from 90% light malt (Pilsner) and 10% Carmel malt (120 EBC). A while ago a very knowledgeable member of a German home brewing forum (at the time he was an apprentice in an Alt brewery) mentioned that the famous Altbier brewery Zum Uerige is brewing their Alt with pilsner, crystal and roasted malts.

How many Alts are using crystal malts, I don't know. But it is definitely not out of style.

Designing Great Beers is a great book to get started. But it's only that in my opinion. The fact that he bases his recipe suggestions on home brewer's interpretations of the style is a major flaw in my eyes. A style should not be defined by the way home brewers interpret it but by the way it is brewed in the country of origin. At least for the traditional styles.

Kai

Damn straight and American brewery interpretations of German beers should be taken out or the example part of the style guidelines. Great Lakes dortmunder gold is no dortmunder.

 

[Justdrumin]

I had an Alt made by Terrapin that I really enjoyed. So I researched the Alt style some more and with some inspiration from the great Kaiser and his Alt in the recipes forum, I came up with this recipe. I'm still pretty new to doin PM with a few under my belt, so I'm a bit unsure about mash temps and water volume for sparge. I do have a calc for temps and volumes for strike water, but nothing for sparge. I was also considering different yeasts. Kaiser recommended wyeast 1007, I've also seen wlp036 used as well. Any suggestions? I was also thinking about adding a half pound or so of carapils. The guy at my LHBS said he always brews with at least a half a pound. He feels it really makes a very nice, long lasting head. I was thinking about fermenting on the low end at 65*F until fermentation is done, then to a secondary for cold conditioning. From what I've heard an Alt benefits from a good cold condition. Any idea how long and what temp? I'm open to any and all suggestions! Thanks a ton in advance.

Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Düsseldorf Altbier
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons
Boil Size: 3 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.047
Efficiency: 60% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 5%
IBU (tinseth): 39.72
SRM (morey): 15.65

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen - (late addition) (43.2%)
2 lb - Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen (21.6%)
2 lb - German - Munich Light (21.6%)
1 lb - German - CaraMunich I (10.8%)
4 oz - German - Carafa II (2.7%)

HOPS:
2 oz - Spalt, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: First Wort, IBU: 19.43
1 oz - Tettnanger, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 12.33
1 oz - spalt, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 7.96

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 152 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 6 qt
2) Sparge, Temp: 170 F, Time: 15 min, Amount: 6 qt

YEAST:
White Labs - German Ale/ Kölsch Yeast WLP029
Starter: 2L
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 65 - 69 F

I just posted this in the recipes forum and got no response, so now I'm posting this here. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated. Sorry for the noob questions as well I'm still very new with making recipes and the mash process. Thanks!

 

[reinstone]

I just posted this in the recipes forum and got no response, so now I'm posting this here. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated. Sorry for the noob questions as well I'm still very new with making recipes and the mash process. Thanks!

I think that looks pretty good! However, I think the kaiser is making beers that are more authentic than a lot of American breweries. I'm not sure about terrapin (I've heard good things) but I have yet to find an American microbrewed lager and pseudo lager I think tastes authentic.

If you like the terrapin id email them and just ask. I hate to see questions unanswered, so I did my best. I know Kai is a busy man Either way the beer looks good to me. Ive not done any partial mash but I understand the principals and it looks like a good all grain approximation.

Prost

 

[Justdrumin]

I think that looks pretty good! However, I think the kaiser is making beers that are more authentic than a lot of American breweries. I'm not sure about terrapin (I've heard good things) but I have yet to find an American microbrewed lager and pseudo lager I think tastes authentic.

If you like the terrapin id email them and just ask. I hate to see questions unanswered, so I did my best. I know Kai is a busy man Either way the beer looks good to me. Ive not done any partial mash but I understand the principals and it looks like a good all grain approximation.

Prost

Thanks!! I actually finally had someone respond to my other thread. From what I understand my recipe was just about dead on with a few tweaks I had something that could be very authentic, with the help of the great Kai. I totally understand he's a very busy man. I do understand what he makes is probably way more authentic than anything in the us. Which is EXACTLY what I was wanting. I find myself liking more and more of the European style brews that don't use a lot of crystal and let the much better aromas of different malts shine through. I have been trying a lot more imports, with the help of a co-worker from the UK, and I am very pleased with the European styles. Don't get me wrong, I love plenty of American styles, but trying some imports made me fall in love with more traditional "old" style of brewing.

 

[blackspider]

looking for a partial mash recipe for Kaiser Alt. New to putting together recipes, still in the learning process.

 

[DRonco]

A buddy and i brewed this exactly one week ago. Everything went as planned. I pitched a one liter starter of wy1007 into about 68° / 1.045 wort. It fermented like a badass for several days at 64°. Upon opening the fermenter for a gravity reading today, I found it like this. It appears from the ring that the cap has fallen back but yet there's still this layer on top. I don't have experience with this strain. Is this expected? I plan to follow Kai's instructions for fining, but not without consistent SG readings. Today's reading was ~1.013. Right on track with the recipe. I'll check again tomorrow. Taste is good with a dry body and a good malt and roast flavor. Great recipe!

 

[adrock430]

Give the bucket a couple twists. Sometimes the yeast stick together in the krausen and won't fall out until its broken up.

 

[DRonco]

I'll give it shot. Thanks!

 

[DRonco]

FTR, that worked. Thank you. Any suggestions on how long the gelatin should sit? Two weeks?

 

[adrock430]

It'll clear in three days, or you could lager wo gelatin for two weeks

 

[adrock430]

Kegging or bottling? Two weeks is plenty, one week and you should be fine.

 

[DRonco]

Thanks, I'm going to keg it. I'll give a solid week at 50°.

 

[highgravitybacon]

A buddy and i brewed this exactly one week ago. Everything went as planned. I pitched a one liter starter of wy1007 into about 68° / 1.045 wort. It fermented like a badass for several days at 64°. Upon opening the fermenter for a gravity reading today, I found it like this. It appears from the ring that the cap has fallen back but yet there's still this layer on top. I don't have experience with this strain. Is this expected? I plan to follow Kai's instructions for fining, but not without consistent SG readings. Today's reading was ~1.013. Right on track with the recipe. I'll check again tomorrow. Taste is good with a dry body and a good malt and roast flavor. Great recipe!

This is what all top cropping strains do. German wheat, alt, some english yeasts, a few american yeasts all do this. After fermentation is done the yeast form goopy glumps on the surface.

 

[malcontent]

I had a day to kill so I triple decocted this in march. Just bottled today. Quite a tasty beer indeed. Im very excited for it to carb up. Im going to have to try a single infusion version to see if all the decoction made a difference.Anyway cheers to you kai.

 

[Justdrumin]

I was originally going to attempt this as a pm, but I think I'm gonna make the jump to AG soon. So this will be my first decoction :rockin: I'd also like to krausen this, but I keg and I'm wondering how it will change the amount needed when kegging. I know the amount of priming sugar changes, so I would assume the amount of krausen you need would change as well?

 

[troglodytes]

This brew looks great. It's next on my list, but before I start I'd like to get some clarification on the bottle carbing process. Up to this point I've only used sugar additions to carb the bottles, but this looks like a much better solution. The problem is, I can't figure out the calculations required to know the secondary pitching volume and gravity to get the correct amount of carbonation in the beer.

I saw the equations on Kaiser's site, but I think I'm making an order of operations error or something, because I can't figure out how he got 1.5L kraeusen to carb 4.5 gal of beer. If someone could give me quick and dirty breakdown on how to calculate these volumes it would be much appreciated as I might starting down this with other beers of differing gravity and batch size.

 

[pcampo]

I have read somewhere, it might have been BYO, that some German altbier brewers use a little wheat in their mash (up to 5%). Kaiser and others, do you know anything about this?

 

[Benedetto]

Couldn't get any 1007, so I am using 1010. Should I perform a Diacetyl rest with this beer?

 

[rzwahr]

Kai,
I recently made this alt, and it turned out quite good. I did 100% FWH on this, just as a test and it seemed like it worked for this. Not sure how traditional FWH is for Alts, but I do know it is a traditional practice in German brewing. I was curious of your thoughts on FWH with this recipe?

Thank you!

Ryan