K-RIMS build question

[Laminarman]

Can I avoid the limited gravity issue with a 2 vessel KRIMS setup I build myself (i.e. Blichmann BrewEasy) with 2 10 gallon vessels instead of an 8 and a 10, which Blichmann uses (for a 5 gallon batch). Also, they use a rubber gasket system to control flow from the MT to the BK (gravity). Could I not get the same level of control with a butterfly or other type of valve? Not sure why they seem to use a cumbersome method to control flow with their valve wide open. Hope this makes sense. Thank you.

 

[Laminarman]

This must be the stupidest question ever because I've asked it on two different forums, and also a year ago, and no answers. I must be missing something : (

 

[orangehero]

Butterfly valves are really only meant to be either open or closed, not very good at regulating flow rate. Diaphragm valves, globe valves, and even ball valves are better for that purpose.

 

[bgradidge]

You can mix and match whatever mash tun sizes you want, just look at the total amount of liquid you're going to need. Unless you've got a lot of extra pots you're stuck with a no-sparge with kettle rims of course.

I set up a kettle rims system in February, but, found it lacked the control I wanted and got a rims tube for my setup by June. The problem I find with Kettle rims is two fold: one, you get a ton of grain husk material in your kettle even with a heavy voraluf , and, two, the temperature control is 'lagged' far too much with the large amount of liquid in the kettle , meaning a lot of your mash that has carried a lot of your enzymes is denaturing at a high temperature in the kettle, so your final gravities can end up wonky. You'd be better off just letting the infusion settle itself out in the mash tun from what I found.

 

[Laminarman]

Thank you for your help. While I was thinking this over I saw a counterflow HERMS design and I might just end up going to a 3 vessel system but I need it to be electric. Will research this now. Found some great videos on Youtube on the KRIMS systems, and it seems you always are fudging with the temp lag and its' not as truly hands off as advertised. Thanks again.

 

[ba-brewer]

On one of the brew strong episodes Blickman and Palmer did something they called a poly-gyle. The did a mash then replaced the spent grain with some more fresh grain and mashed again to increase the gravity without going to a bigger mash kettle.

 

[TexasWine]

The problem I find with Kettle rims is two fold: one, you get a ton of grain husk material in your kettle even with a heavy voraluf , and, two, the temperature control is 'lagged' far too much with the large amount of liquid in the kettle , meaning a lot of your mash that has carried a lot of your enzymes is denaturing at a high temperature in the kettle, so your final gravities can end up wonky. You'd be better off just letting the infusion settle itself out in the mash tun from what I found.

I just modified my system so I can brew in a kettle rims configuration but haven't had a chance to brew with it set up like that yet. Curious if you think the first problem could be solved by simply recirculating the mash tun for a few minutes before sending anything to the boil kettle.

The second problem you mention doesn't seem like it should be a problem at all with the correct temp probe placement. I have mine in a tee at the mash tun bulkhead for the return line from the boil kettle. With that placement the temp in the system will never get higher than the set point on the controller.

Concerning the original question of why they use flow restriction orifices, my theory is that it's a simple foolproof way to make sure the end user isn't haven't to futz around with valve position to get the right flow between the two kettles. If the flow rate from the mash tun to the boil kettle is higher than the flow in the other direction, you'll eventually empty the mash tun and end up with all your liquid in the boil kettle. Not good for conversion!

If you were to use valves, you'll have to make sure you can get back to the mash tun at the same rate, maybe slightly faster, and let the Autosparge do it's thing to keep you from over flowing the mash tun.

 

[pocketmon]

I set up a kettle rims system in February, but, found it lacked the control I wanted and got a rims tube for my setup by June. The problem I find with Kettle rims is two fold: one, you get a ton of grain husk material in your kettle even with a heavy voraluf , and, two, the temperature control is 'lagged' far too much with the large amount of liquid in the kettle , meaning a lot of your mash that has carried a lot of your enzymes is denaturing at a high temperature in the kettle, so your final gravities can end up wonky. You'd be better off just letting the infusion settle itself out in the mash tun from what I found.

I had concern about the temperature control when planning my K-RIMS setup. The solution is simple enough because

The enzyme exists in the LIQUID part, not the solid part.

 

[jonestrada]

Can I avoid the limited gravity issue with a 2 vessel KRIMS setup I build myself (i.e. Blichmann BrewEasy) with 2 10 gallon vessels instead of an 8 and a 10, which Blichmann uses (for a 5 gallon batch). Also, they use a rubber gasket system to control flow from the MT to the BK (gravity). Could I not get the same level of control with a butterfly or other type of valve? Not sure why they seem to use a cumbersome method to control flow with their valve wide open. Hope this makes sense. Thank you.

I've been messing with kettle rims systems and my guess is the size difference probably has to do with a balance. If the kettles were the same size mashing-in could potentially be dangerous with the swirling of grains and hot water with nothing to lock the mash tun in place.

A ball valve will work to control the flow. The AutoSparge is the key to any successful K-RIMS system. Without the AutoSparge you will be opening and closing valves all mash long.

If you're wanting to go with a one pump/gravity set-up, this guy gives a good breakdown of his two vessel build:

If you're looking for a two pump system, this one looks amazing!

 

[jonestrada]

I used a grill grate with stainless all thread bolts going up and down to connect everything. It was still a little sketchy brewing like that.

 

[bgradidge]

The solution is simple enough because

The enzyme exists in the LIQUID part, not the solid part.

Yeah, this is where I found kettle rims kind of fell apart for me

Even when I made my rims-tube setup it still wasn't entirely there until I moved the probe into the tube itself and max'ed my 1500w element's output to 20%

 

[TexasWine]

Yeah, this is where I found kettle rims kind of fell apart for me

Even when I made my rims-tube setup it still wasn't entirely there until I moved the probe into the tube itself and max'ed my 1500w element's output to 20%

Exactly. Temp probe placement is key with any arrangement. A K-Rims will hit the exact temps you desire if executed correctly.

 

[Laminarman]

Wow thanks for all the advise. When considering my own build, I wondered if I could fix the temperature lag (as mentioned) by placing the probe coming OUT of the mash tun rather than the exit from the BK as Blichmann has done. I would imagine when it's time for the boil I could disconnect that probe and attach to the BK if I had to but with an analogue temperature scale I don't really see a need to.

 

[TexasWine]

When considering my own build, I wondered if I could fix the temperature lag (as mentioned) by placing the probe coming OUT of the mash tun rather than the exit from the BK as Blichmann has done.

You definitely don't want to do this. There would be a tremendous amount of lag in the system because your heat source is in the boil kettle. This means the element will continue to fire until the temp hits the set point, and that could be several minutes with the probe on the outlet of the mash tun. You'll definitely overheat your wort.

If Blichmann has the probe on the outlet of the boil kettle, then they have it right.

If the probe is in the boil kettle outlet, I just don't understand how there is any lag that results in overshooting temps in this type of system. Perhaps the boil kettle is not being sufficiently mixed and temp stratification is occurring? If so, that'd be a good argument to have a horizontal system with two pumps between the two vessels. The boil kettle inlet would have a whirlpool attachment of some sort. That's how I've built mine and I bank on it working.

 

[pocketmon]

Condition grains before milling, and use rice husk. The flow rate of wort is a direct factor of the lag.
FIY, Grainfather also suffers from the temperature difference issue. If the wort doesn't drain from the overflow pipe, Grainfather and k-rims are similar, except Grainfather has smaller "BK" compartment. According to my experience, the temperature is quite consistent when it is maintained at a temperature. The lag of rising temperature depends on the flow rate of wort. It usually takes 10 to 20 minutes to reach constancy when rising temperature for 7-10 degrees.

 

[TexasWine]

FIY, Grainfather also suffers from the temperature difference issue. If the wort doesn't drain from the overflow pipe, Grainfather and k-rims are similar, except Grainfather has smaller "BK" compartment. According to my experience, the temperature is quite consistent when it is maintained at a temperature. The lag of rising temperature depends on the flow rate of wort. It usually takes 10 to 20 minutes to reach constancy when rising temperature for 7-10 degrees.

This would be true in any system when step mashing. GF, single vessel eBIAB, RIMS, HERMS, KRIMS, they will all require that a certain volume be moved through the system before the temp in the grain bed matches the temp at the measured point.

So yes, in theory, the faster the flow, the faster the temperature across the entire system will stabilize. You just have to balance other factors like bed compaction.

The lag you mention is exactly why you don't want the probe in the line from the mash tun to the boil kettle in a KRIMS. That would be 10-20 minutes the element will be firing at 100%, causing a massive overshoot.

 

[jonestrada]

The boil kettle inlet would have a whirlpool attachment of some sort. That's how I've built mine and I bank on it working.

Do you have any pictures of your setup? I'm piecing mine together this weekend if all of the parts come in on time.

 

[Laminarman]

OK, got it about the temperature probe placement. You helped me avoid that mistake if I did it myself. Thanks for the responses.

 

[jangevaa]

It may interest you, here's what my k-rims (2 pump) looks like after about a year using it.

http://onbrewing.com/2017-brewery-update/

I unconventionally do not use an auto-sparge (probably not advisable). I do use two diaphragm valves to fine tune flow rates from the pumps. I use one 5500watt element, and full volume mash. The total water used in one of my 14 gallon batches is typically around 19-20 gallons. That is a lot of heat capacity there. A consistent, slightly coarse crush is important, a good mill, good false bottom. I run quicker recirculation rates than what is typically recommended, but it's what is needed to get the job done with this design I believe.

I do get some grain bits in the boil kettle, but I mitigate the bulk of it with mash tun only recirculation/vorlauf to start.

Stainless steel plumbing throughout is beautiful, but a mistake! Heat loss from the huge surface of highly conductive plumbing (relative to silicone), makes temperature control harder than it needs to be. Not impossible, and I do get good results overall, but the vorlauf stage of my process is the largest challenge, as it drops mash temps quick - there's recirculation but no active heating. The way I've learn to mitigate that is to slowly do an infusion from the boil kettle (which is still holding water near strike temp) while this is on going.

In the immediate future I will be adding a pressure sensor to control pumps (off/on to augment the manual flow equalization with diaphragm valves) to stay within a specific volume range in the boil kettle. As well as cut power to the element to prevent dry firing.

From there I have lots of thoughts - get a pump that I can do RPM control of, or a proportional valve to use in combination with volume sensing for flow equalization. Maybe switch to a two tier design - get one nice sanitary pump that I can use with a VFD, and sell my current "TC" chugger pumps, maybe get some 1" brewers hose to go with it. Wedge wire false bottom for finer filtering. There's always something!

 

[Laminarman]

It may interest you, here's what my k-rims (2 pump) looks like after about a year using it.

http://onbrewing.com/2017-brewery-update/

I unconventionally do not use an auto-sparge (probably not advisable). I do use two diaphragm valves to fine tune flow rates from the pumps. I use one 5500watt element, and full volume mash. The total water used in one of my 14 gallon batches is typically around 19-20 gallons. That is a lot of heat capacity there. A consistent, slightly coarse crush is important, a good mill, good false bottom. I run quicker recirculation rates than what is typically recommended, but it's what is needed to get the job done with this design I believe.

I do get some grain bits in the boil kettle, but I mitigate the bulk of it with mash tun only recirculation/vorlauf to start.

Stainless steel plumbing throughout is beautiful, but a mistake! Heat loss from the huge surface of highly conductive plumbing (relative to silicone), makes temperature control harder than it needs to be. Not impossible, and I do get good results overall, but the vorlauf stage of my process is the largest challenge, as it drops mash temps quick - there's recirculation but no active heating. The way I've learn to mitigate that is to slowly do an infusion from the boil kettle (which is still holding water near strike temp) while this is on going.

In the immediate future I will be adding a pressure sensor to control pumps (off/on to augment the manual flow equalization with diaphragm valves) to stay within a specific volume range in the boil kettle. As well as cut power to the element to prevent dry firing.

From there I have lots of thoughts - get a pump that I can do RPM control of, or a proportional valve to use in combination with volume sensing for flow equalization. Maybe switch to a two tier design - get one nice sanitary pump that I can use with a VFD, and sell my current "TC" chugger pumps, maybe get some 1" brewers hose to go with it. Wedge wire false bottom for finer filtering. There's always something!

Excellent, thank you! Wow, what a set up.

 

[jonestrada]

I'm almost done with my K-RIMS system. I just need to trim the hoses and finish installing the heating element in the boil kettle.

The plan is to use propane to get up to temperature and then connect the heating element cable up to regulate mash temperatures.

The controller is the InkBird PID with pump switch from BrewHardware. The temp probe is placed between K-RIMS and the Blichmann AutoSparge similar to the BrewEasy.

 

[PSGD]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1509382433.429644.jpg
My 2 vessel k-rims. Temp prob is in Kettle outlet plumbing. I also have one in the side of the BK that I can select via a simple toggle switch on my panel. I control flow via the 2 ball valves at the top of both keggles. I have a float switch in the bk that cuts off the bk pump so I don’t have to worry about running the element dry. So I error on the side of pumping out of the bk faster than the mt and just let the safety float switch keep the levels right

 

[brianccarr]

I am putting this system together. I was curious about what your thoughts were about using a bag on the mash tun side. I have a stainless false bottom/grate from brewhardware that sits under the bag. I have a pulley system so my thoughts are could this help with grain passing through the system as well as make removing the grain a little simpler.

 

[mongoose33]

Can someone help me a bit with understanding the advantages of this system? I have a normal RIMS system w/ a tube into which the element is inserted, and it works fine. I'm even using the same Inkbird controller as shown above. People aren't doing this for no reason, so if someone would educate me on this, I'd be grateful.

 

[jonestrada]

Can someone help me a bit with understanding the advantages of this system? I have a normal RIMS system w/ a tube into which the element is inserted, and it works fine. I'm even using the same Inkbird controller as shown above. People aren't doing this for no reason, so if someone would educate me on this, I'd be grateful.

The two vessel system eliminates the need for a sparging, simplifying the process and saving time. It also reduces costs by not needing to purchase a third kettle.

I tried two different versions, one that was all electric and used two pumps and the that was half electric and half propane. In the end I've gone back to BIABasket with a RIMS.

 

[mongoose33]

The two vessel system eliminates the need for a sparging, simplifying the process and saving time. It also reduces costs by not needing to purchase a third kettle.

Still not clear what's going on. I use a kettle as a mash tun (single infusion) recirculating the wort through a RIMS tube. I don't sparge.

You could call my system a 2-vessel system, I suppose--I have a kettle for a mash tun, another kettle for a boil kettle. But I've come to think of it as a 3-vessel system, with the 3rd vessel the RIMS tube.

So I'm still unclear about this.

EDITED to ADD: So you're heating the wort in the kettle with the element and then recirculating, in effect using the kettle as an open-to-the-air RIMS "tube"?

 

[ba-brewer]

@mongoose33, I am with you on not really seeing the benefits of the K-RIMS. I can see the benefits to the Brew easy approach as you can do it with one pump. Mash tun could be a smaller size kettle than the boil kettle to save a couple bucks.

Doing full volume you lose efficiency unless you have bag. I think though you could do a cold water fly sparge to get some efficiency back.

One thing with the two vessel full volume over a full volume one vessel system if you have the proper size kettles you could do a thicker mash and just cycle through the mash to start then start cross cycling later. That would allow a fast temp increase step mash over a one vessel system.

 

[brianccarr]

I felt that k-rims was a good option for me to move from a hybrid gas/electric setup. I had a 5500w 240v element in my RIMS tube that I ran at 120v on a single vessel BIAB setup connected to a controller. This resulted in a low density wattage which was great for maintaining mash temperature in a re-circulation loop. I would use propane to get to strike temp, mash out ramp, and boil. The issue is ramping up to mash out and then to boil would be virtually impossible without the propane. My K-Rims will use a 240v boilcoil in the BK/HLT. Two pumps two recirculate through the two side by side 20 gallon kettles. I did a lot of research and to me this just seemed like the easiest way to go all electric. Hopefully I made the right decision; pretty pricey upgrade. Still hoping to hear any thoughts on which would be better; a bag or Blichmann false bottom, or both.

 

[ba-brewer]

@brianccarr It seem like if you had a false bottom in your mashtun it work a bit like a manifold to pull the wort more evenly thru the grain. Not sure how well it would work in that fashion and if it is worth the added cost. If you are recirculating fast enough there should be good mixing and draining thru the grain bag. I would not use a bag and false bottom together.

If you had an element in the mashtun then one of these seems like a good thing.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/biabbottom15.htm

 

[brianccarr]

@brianccarr It seem like if you had a false bottom in your mashtun it work a bit like a manifold to pull the wort more evenly thru the grain. Not sure how well it would work in that fashion and if it is worth the added cost. If you are recirculating fast enough there should be good mixing and draining thru the grain bag. I would not use a bag and false bottom together.

If you had an element in the mashtun then one of these seems like a good thing.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/biabbottom15.htm

Yes, I have that bottom screen from brew hardware and used in my previous setup with the bag. So I’m trying to decide now which would be better:

Use the brewhardware BIAB bottom with a bag in my new mash tun. It would make it easy to pull grains with a pulley system that I already have

or

Ditch the bag and use just the false bottom. I already have that to.

I guess a little testing is in order.

 

[CodeSection]

@brianccarr, I have a 2 vessel K-Rim system and use a false bottom in my MT. It works well. I have no experience with a bag.

 

[ba-brewer]

If you already have both then just try them and see what works best. I always get less kettle trub when I use my false bottom verses a bag. If you dump everything into the fermentor then it does matter but I only ferment clean wort.

 

[mongoose33]

@mongoose33, I am with you on not really seeing the benefits of the K-RIMS. I can see the benefits to the Brew easy approach as you can do it with one pump. Mash tun could be a smaller size kettle than the boil kettle to save a couple bucks.

Doing full volume you lose efficiency unless you have bag. I think though you could do a cold water fly sparge to get some efficiency back.

One thing with the two vessel full volume over a full volume one vessel system if you have the proper size kettles you could do a thicker mash and just cycle through the mash to start then start cross cycling later. That would allow a fast temp increase step mash over a one vessel system.

I've been trying to implement LODO techniques, for the most part successfully. The K-RIMS approach, given that it has the wort open to the atmosphere, is a nonstarter for anyone trying to do that.

 

[TexasWine]

I've been trying to implement LODO techniques, for the most part successfully. The K-RIMS approach, given that it has the wort open to the atmosphere, is a nonstarter for anyone trying to do that.

The benefit is that it effectively increases the volume of hot liquor you can use during the mash, which will increase your batch size if you're limited to a no sparge two vessel system.

My old system was designed to operate in several configurations, one of them being horizontal K-Rims. You can do lodob with this set up if you used a floating mash cap in both vessels, or get a couple of those nifty sealable Stout vessels.

 

[brianccarr]

I don’t plan to have any lids off after dough. Not sure I understand the LODO concern here. After dough in, the lids on both kettles will do on through the duration of the mash.

 

[BrunDog]

Not sure if the “why” question was answered... K RIMs is a step up from BIAB... single power element, but a normal mash recirculating through a grain bed rather than removing the grain out of the boil kettle. Can also cold water sparge easily if desired.

 

[mongoose33]

I don’t plan to have any lids off after dough. Not sure I understand the LODO concern here. After dough in, the lids on both kettles will do on through the duration of the mash.

The lids might be on, but the air beneath them is the issue.

 

[ba-brewer]

The benefit is that it effectively increases the volume of hot liquor you can use during the mash, which will increase your batch size if you're limited to a no sparge two vessel system.

I am not getting/following this, can you please elaborate on this a bit.

 

[TexasWine]

I am not getting/following this, can you please elaborate on this a bit.

Because it uses two vessels during the mash, there is a larger volume which allows one to use more hot liquor (water) for the mash when compared to a single vessel.

 

[TexasWine]

I've been trying to implement LODO techniques, for the most part successfully. The K-RIMS approach, given that it has the wort open to the atmosphere, is a nonstarter for anyone trying to do that.

Also don't forget, if you do the pre boil step you will need to consider how to accomplish that in this type of setup.