Just brewed this saison. Thoughts?

[Rootski]

I've transitioned my equipment to all grain so that I don't have to go to a friend's to do AG anymore. Now, I need to use up all my extract ingredients. Since I had a lot of fresh LME around and lots of hops, last night I decided to use some up. I'd like some people's thoughts on what I did and if I should add anything like oak or whatever later to make it better. I realize that this is not anywhere true to a pure saison, but I'm calling it a saison since I used 3711 yeast.

5 gal

Steeping:
1/2# Briess Caramel 20L

Fermentables:
6# Gold LME
3.15# Wheat LME (added at 15 min)
46oz Alexander's Merlot grape concentrate (added at 1 min - it killed the boil and it never returned to a boil)

Hops:
1oz UK EKG (60 min)
1oz Willamette (15 min)
1oz Willamette (1 min)

Yeast:
3711 with a 2000ml starter decanted

Others:
Irish moss (15 min)
FermcapS (10 drops before boil)

I was using a new boil kettle and it was cold (frost on the ground when I finished) so I didn't know my boil off rate. I guessed and was wrong. Ended up with about 5.5 gallons in the fermenter which is fine since I used Fermcap and it's a big beer. After chilling I filtered it through a paint strainer bag into a bucket, then dumped that into a 6 gal glass carboy. Measured OG is 1.084.

Right now it's already got 1/4" to 1/2" krausen a bubbling away, temp at about 65 or 66. In the next couple of days I plan to bring the temp up to 70-71, then up to 75-76 a couple days after that. Is 65-66 too cold? I could bring it up to 70-71 sooner if people think I should.

 

[fixitoscar]

saison yeast like it hot. I like to hold in the sixties for 48 hrs then let it free rise til it peaks once the temp levels off raise it a degree or so a day until 82 and hold until done. My favorite quote about saison yeast is from Jamil z "Treat it like a dirty girl" This one you don't want to be clean, you want funky.

 

[JR_Brewer]

"Treat it like a dirty girl"

Wow, that's awesome. Sounds like a good beer, agree that you want to elevate the temps. I love brewing these in the summer using 3711... much easier to work with IMO than 3724.

 

[TopherM]

You don't need to whirlfloc a saison, either. You want a percentage of the wheat proteins to make it to the final beer, and the whirlfloc will pull them out.

Skip the whirlfloc!

 

[bondra76]

couldn't agree with the dirty statements any more.

We just had a seminar on Saisons at my beer club, and the message was along those lines. This is a farmhouse ale that's got all kinds of everything in it. You're not looking for a clean pour with a saison. It should be a little hazy and full.

 

[Rootski]

Just an update on this beer. I brewed it on November 6th, fermentation started within 12 hours at 65. I moved it to a different spot after another 24 hours where it got up to 70 or 71. It fermented strong and is still fermenting quite a lot today, 12 days later. Yesterday I moved it again and it's now up to about 74. Right now that's the warmest I'm going to get it and I'll hold it there through the rest of fermentation. I'm surprised this beer is still visibly turning over and bubbling strong this many days later.

 

[TopherM]

Make sure you are taking hydrometer readings. It is very possible that you'll get a stuck fermentation at 71F around 1.030. You may need to toss it in a bathroom with a space heater for a couple days to get it up to 85-90ish to get full attenuation.

 

[Rootski]

Thanks I will check once it settles down. With the beer still visibly bubbling strongly, I will wait until visible activity slows or stops and it starts clearing up.

 

[Rootski]

Over 1 month into primary and all activity appears to have stopped. It's cleared up really well and a nice burgundy color. Hydro reading is 1.006, down from 1.084. Not bad for extract! Tasted young, but better than I thought for being this young and boozy. I'm really excited about this one and how it will turn out after a month or two more. I will measure again in a handful of days and probably bottle, then let them sit for a couple months.

 

[Rootski]

Final update on this beer in case anyone comes searching years later. I really like this beer! It's really drying out and has a strong crisp flavor of spice from the yeast and sweet red wine. I've still got lots of bottles left so I hope it continues to age well.

Notes:
-It took a LONG time to carb - a full 2-3 months in the bottle before any carbonation was present. It's still undercarbed, but increasing every time I open a bottle. Not sure why, except maybe that the yeast is stressed by high alcohol content.
-The beer never cleared. It is a very hazy burgundy color which I believe happened because I added the grape concentrate to the boiling wort. Next time I make something like this, I'll add it after chilling or in secondary.
-It's strong, but doesn't taste like it so it's dangerous. Next time I want this beer to be similar in flavor, but less alcohol.

Possible changes for future brews:
-I've changed to all grain
-Add grape concentrate sometime after chilling for clarity
-Oak
-Use some bugs to add some tartness and character
-Try a different variety of grape for a change of pace
-Perhaps use less grape concentrate or use the same amount in a bigger batch. The wine flavor is strongly present in this beer.

 

[bondra76]

I think you're too worried about the haze.

Directly from the BJCP Guidelines for Saisons:
"Clarity is poor to good though haze is not unexpected in this type of unfiltered farmhouse beer."
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style16.php

The saison style is not intended to be a clear beer.

 

[RM-MN]

Final update on this beer in case anyone comes searching years later. I really like this beer! It's really drying out and has a strong crisp flavor of spice from the yeast and sweet red wine. I've still got lots of bottles left so I hope it continues to age well.

Notes:
-It took a LONG time to carb - a full 2-3 months in the bottle before any carbonation was present. It's still undercarbed, but increasing every time I open a bottle. Not sure why, except maybe that the yeast is stressed by high alcohol content.
-The beer never cleared. It is a very hazy burgundy color which I believe happened because I added the grape concentrate to the boiling wort. Next time I make something like this, I'll add it after chilling or in secondary.
-It's strong, but doesn't taste like it so it's dangerous. Next time I want this beer to be similar in flavor, but less alcohol.

Possible changes for future brews:
-I've changed to all grain
-Add grape concentrate sometime after chilling for clarity
-Oak
-Use some bugs to add some tartness and character
-Try a different variety of grape for a change of pace
-Perhaps use less grape concentrate or use the same amount in a bigger batch. The wine flavor is strongly present in this beer.

I think much of your haze is pectin haze. If you add the grape juice when the temperature is below 160 and above 140, you can pasteurize the wort without setting the pectins.

 

[Rootski]

I think much of your haze is pectin haze. If you add the grape juice when the temperature is below 160 and above 140, you can pasteurize the wort without setting the pectins.

I'm almost certain that you're correct on the pectin haze. I'm not overly worried about it, but next time I may change it up and hopefully learn something in the process.

My next iteration might go something like this:
All grain standard Saison recipe with 2-row, wheat, Vienna, something basic. Use zinfandel grape concentrate for a little spicier wine flavor. Split an 8 or 10 gallon batch 2 ways, one with 3711 and dry hopped and one with yeast bay farmhouse sour or another blend, light on the hops. I'm leaning towards this being my next brew.