Just another electric brewery build thread.

[sethhobrin]

Hood is getting mounted on Monday along with Brew Stand. It is time to start planning and building the electrical and this is where I will need the most help!

Can I just get a load center to bring the 4 wire/50 amps/240v from the Spa Panel GFCI and distribute it to the various other control boxes, gang boxes, etc?

I am not doing a single control panel like many do here. This image shows how things will be separated. I am using Auber control boxes for the element plug/SSR/element switches/PIDs(3 sets of them) and standard Home Depot outlets, switches for the pumps, outlet boxes, etc. All of this is being built in to a wooden wheeled cabinet cart that will be painted, etc... the fire risk should be minimal since all of the electronics will be housed inside of metal or standard outlet boxes. Little more complex of a build but also little more creative than the standard Kal clone. I will be documenting the build step by step.





Most of my parts are collected other than wiring and some tools I will probably need. I need to exchange one of the element adapters from brewershardware as it has a hole in the weld near the electric connections and that could be dangerous with a splash.



Here is a crude concept art of my wheeled cabinet where all of the components will be housed:

 

[sethhobrin]

I am still looking for help on this question from my last post. Any help is really appreciated!

"Can I just get a load center to bring the 4 wire/50 amps/240v from the Spa Panel 50A GFCI and distribute it to the various other control boxes, gang boxes, etc in the cabinet instead of building my own with terminal strips and din rails, etc?"


And if yes, can someone help me find the correct one. I was looking at 4 space load centers but most of them say 3 wire, and I am not sure if they are appropriate and need one that can bring in 2 hots, a neutral and a ground across three 25a breakers and one 15a breaker.

Seems this would same me the hassle of building a control box with terminal strips and would also save on some wire.

 

[sethhobrin]

sethhobrin,

You do not need to use heavy gauge wire on the input side of the breakers.Use #10 for the element breakers and #14 for the pumps etc.

No problem.

Hey PJ what do you think about my idea using a load center instead of building one manually and putting in terminal strips, etc? See previous two posts.

 

[P-J]

Hey PJ what do you think about my idea using a load center instead of building one manually and putting in terminal strips, etc? See previous two posts.

It's your build.

I would not do it that way - no way.
I'd find a suitable enclosure, or figure out a way to stack and gang your already purchased 4 controller boxes (Pbox16). Or sell them and purchase a decent enclosure for your setup.

IMHO, doing it to your plan is going to drive your cost through the roof and then it will compromise your safety. It is electricity in a wet enviroment after all.

Please think you plan through as you are on your own now.

P-J

 

[sethhobrin]

I don't see what is unsafe? all of the electrical components are housed properly in control panels, gang boxes, etc... its just that they will be built in to a mobile cabinet which will be a couple feet away from the brew stand. its not like I'm brewing on top of this thing or something. i am inclined to think you misunderstood something I have stated or something. I don't understand the hostility.

I just wanted to discuss the possibility of using an appropriately specced load center instead of building a small control box to do the same thing(distribute power from the spa panel across 4 breakers for the elements and pumps).

This is me thinking my plan through and soliciting help from others in that process. I appreciate the help you have given myself and others but again why the hostility?

 

[P-J]

...
I appreciate the help you have given myself and others but again why the hostility?

No hostility at all.
Just do it your way.

 

[jtkratzer]

I don't see what is unsafe? all of the electrical components are housed properly in control panels, gang boxes, etc... its just that they will be built in to a mobile cabinet which will be a couple feet away from the brew stand. its not like I'm brewing on top of this thing or something. i am inclined to think you misunderstood something I have stated or something. I don't understand the hostility.

I just wanted to discuss the possibility of using an appropriately specced load center instead of building a small control box to do the same thing(distribute power from the spa panel across 4 breakers for the elements and pumps).

This is me thinking my plan through and soliciting help from others in that process. I appreciate the help you have given myself and others but again why the hostility?

Is this akin to housing multiple servers in a rack data center? Are you trying to put each PID and its components into its own housing, and then putting all the individual enclosures into a cart style housing?

 

[sethhobrin]

Is this akin to housing multiple servers in a rack data center? Are you trying to put each PID and its components into its own housing, and then putting all the individual enclosures into a cart style housing?

exactly and great analogy since that is what I do professionally.

 

[jtkratzer]

exactly and great analogy since that is what I do professionally.

I can see where that would get pricier than a single enclosure. What's you're reasoning for doing it that way? I'm sure you have something in mind for how to do it, but how are you going to power 3-4 separate enclosures from one service from your spa panel?

 

[sethhobrin]

I can see where that would get pricier than a single enclosure. What's you're reasoning for doing it that way? I'm sure you have something in mind for how to do it, but how are you going to power 3-4 separate enclosures from one service from your spa panel?

I have a 50a breaker in my 200 service main panel for the home with a 4 prong range outlet. My spa panel has a 50a range cord with a plug that will be plugged in to that outlet. The Spa Panel will actually be mounted inside the wheeled cabinet. From the spa panel there will be a very short run of 6-4 to either a junction box that I will build where I will split the 50a across three 25a breakers for the elements and one 15a breaker for the pumps/pids using terminal strips, etc.

My idea/question was to use a small load center to distribute that power across the 4 breakers instead of building one myself to do the same thing.

Hope that helps explain what I am trying to accomplish. I understand it will cost a little bit more in materials but when all is said and done i should have a mobile cart that I can just move over, plug in, brew beer with, then unplug when I am done and slide back in the corner. I want to be able easily move this equipment to a new home if I need to as well. this equipment can also be moved outside as long as there is a 50a, 4 prong range plug available) It could even be transported in a pickup truck to a brewing club outing as long as there is a 50/4 wire plug available. None of the electric is exposed and will be enclosed in either the spa panel, sub panel/load center to distribute the power, or gang boxes, etc... there will be short runs of wire inside of the cabinet going from the different control boxes but it will all be protected with appropriate fuses, breakers, GFCI, etc... I don't see the risk. Even if there is a short there is multiple layers of protection built in. its no different than if i mounted all this stuff on my wall in a single panels except the panels will be built in to a cabinet with outlets, gang boxes, etc.... the entire mobile cabinet will be a few feet away from the brewing stand/hood. My elements have 10 ft cords that will plug in to this mobile cabinet.


I attached another crude drawing to show how this is laid out in case I am just having difficulty explaining my plan so it is understandable. Obviously it is not as simple as this but it gives you a basic idea of what I would like to accomplish.


And all of it will be housed in an enclosed cabinet on wheels that I will build out of wood, seal, and paint kind of like this:

 

[jtkratzer]

I gotcha. That's what i had pictured. I'm no expert, but I think what P-J is getting at the risk is if your GFCI trips, for whatever reason, you still have 50A 240V service in your mobile cart. Seems a lot of folks are mounting an outlet in the spa panel to power everything. It's your build and safety and you need to get the blessing or sign off from whoever you trust about your design. If you mount the outlet, fed by your main, mounted an outlet in that spa panel, powered by the first outlet, you'd still have a mobile system depending on how you mount your spa panel. It creates that distance of safety that when/if your breaker trips, the power is cut at least several feet away. You can still accomplish your design and keep the breaker away from your controls. Just a thought.

I went the control box route, but it's powered from a breaker to an outlet, spa panel has an power cord to plug into that outlet for juice, and the output of the GFCI is another outlet. The control box has a power cord wired into it to power the box/components and it plugs into the outlet in the GFCI panel. When/if I move, I just need to take the spa panel off the wall and unplug it. Simple.

Power distribution is really simple and clean with a couple terminal blocks. I don't know anything about the load center for distribution.

 

[sethhobrin]

I gotcha. That's what i had pictured. I'm no expert, but I think what P-J is getting at the risk is if your GFCI trips, for whatever reason, you still have 50A 240V service in your mobile cart. Seems a lot of folks are mounting an outlet in the spa panel to power everything. It's your build and safety and you need to get the blessing or sign off from whoever you trust about your design. If you mount the outlet, fed by your main, mounted an outlet in that spa panel, powered by the first outlet, you'd still have a mobile system depending on how you mount your spa panel. It creates that distance of safety that when/if your breaker trips, the power is cut at least several feet away. You can still accomplish your design and keep the breaker away from your controls. Just a thought.

I went the control box route, but it's powered from a breaker to an outlet, spa panel has an power cord to plug into that outlet for juice, and the output of the GFCI is another outlet. The control box has a power cord wired into it to power the box/components and it plugs into the outlet in the GFCI panel. When/if I move, I just need to take the spa panel off the wall and unplug it. Simple.

Power distribution is really simple and clean with a couple terminal blocks. I don't know anything about the load center for distribution.

Interesting... My understanding was that when the GFCI breaker trips there is NO power going past that GFCI breaker. If there is then that is definately my misunderstanding. I can easily add a plug to the SPA panel so that the cart can be unplugged from the SPA panel as well as the SPA panel being able to be unplugged from the main 50A receptacle. That way I can keep the SPA panel further away from the cart instead of mounting it inside of the cart. That is no big deal. I'm not in a rush and I am still researching/planning/learning and just looking for feedback.

I was just hoping to save some time by using a load center/sub panel to distribute power across the breakers instead of building my own like you said. Your right its no big deal to make one myself but for 20-30 bucks I saw some at HD/Lowes and was wondering if they would do the same job and allow me to just pop the 4 breakers right in the load center.

I got the idea for the load center from this build and I was thinking I could just apply it on a larger scale with 4 breakers but I am still researching.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electric-brewing-system/

 

[jtkratzer]

If the spa panel is in your cart and that's where the GFCI breaker is, then you still have hot wiring in the cart, even if the breaker trips. Sure, that wiring is before the breaker, but it's still there. If your cart gets wet, you won't have a way to cut all power to it unless you unplug the spa panel from your receptacle or trip the breaker in the main panel.

I believe this is why P-J's e-stop works the way it does when you have an external spa panel to trip the breaker and cut power as far away from the brewery and control panel as possible.

 

[sethhobrin]

If the spa panel is in your cart and that's where the GFCI breaker is, then you still have hot wiring in the cart, even if the breaker trips. Sure, that wiring is before the breaker, but it's still there. If your cart gets wet, you won't have a way to cut all power to it unless you unplug the spa panel from your receptacle or trip the breaker in the main panel.

I believe this is why P-J's e-stop works the way it does when you have an external spa panel to trip the breaker and cut power as far away from the brewery and control panel as possible.

thanks for the clarification. I didn't think of the back leg of the spa panel and that makes good sense. I will be leaving the SPA panel out and away from the mobile cart then. The ESTOP will still be in the mobile cart and easily accessible on the front.

 

[sethhobrin]

My father stopped by to help me carry the brew stand and hood back down to the basement after painting as well as hang the hood! we did some smoke testing and that 6" vortex sure can suck!

 

[BeerguyNC61]

Awesome looking system!!!!

 

[sethhobrin]

Thanks!

Bolted down the SPA Panel to a stud near the 50A Receptacle and wired up the cord tonight.

 

[sethhobrin]

I had long tri clover ferrules welded in to my BK and HLT today. i was a little nervous but for no reason. the welder did a great job and they look fantastic. I will be using the brewershardware.com element adapters with this.

 

[bdjohns1]

Looks like your welder did a very nice job. Interior surface of the kettle looks pretty darned good.

I'd like to learn how to TIG someday. Maybe I'll bribe the sanitary welding guy at my plant with a couple mini-kegs.

 

[sethhobrin]

yeah it turned out really great. Smooth as a babies bottom. I was describing what I wanted him to do as most people just weld the inside ferrule to come in to the kettle a bit and he was like no no no. i'll just weld it to the edge and grind it off to match the radius of the kettle. I was like OK GREAT! Glad I found him.

Kick's Metal and Art in Kenosha, WI if anyone needs a welder. Tell him David sent you. He is looking for work.

 

[jfrizzell]

Nice welds! Looks like you found someone with some experience working in the dairy industry.

 

[stevehaun]

Your welder is an artist.

 

[sethhobrin]

I have been making some progress slowly but surely. Few new pics of the control boxes after I have cut most of what I need. I will be staining and sealing the cart this weekend. I wired up the element cords and tri clover adapters.

 

[sethhobrin]

Completed wiring up the spa panel. Cut hole and installed 50a receptacle.

 

[sethhobrin]

Stain and sealant completed. Time to get this thing wired.

Shot at 2012-06-24

Shot at 2012-06-24

 

[sethhobrin]

Finished wiring up the pump outlets, pump switches, PID switch, subpanel mounted to chassis and 50a cable installed.

Continuity testing was a success.

Shot at 2012-06-24

Shot at 2012-06-24

 

[sethhobrin]

Tonight I wired up the first control box. Set the Auber 2352 for PT100 RTD and she is reporting what seems an accurate temp! It's alive!!!

Shot at 2012-06-28

 

[sethhobrin]

Whew!!! All electrical work has been completed! All continuity testing was successful. I don't think I have any issues with wiring. Couldn't find a single issue with the multimeter. Will need to do further testing but the hard part is finally behind me!!!

I need to tidy up all the wiring inside the cabinet with zip ties, etc so it isn't a mess. Can't wait to do some test runs with water in my kettles!

I know that some people don't agree with putting wiring inside of wood however I don't see an issue with it. Everything is insulated and as long as the wiring is correct and everything is tested it should not be an issue. I went this route because I had already purchased some equipment from Auberins and I like stained wood and not metal. Personal preference... I plan to put up a splash guard between the kettles and the equipment just to add a little bit of extra safety. Time to celebrate with a homebrew!!!

 

[sethhobrin]

Ran autotune on the BK and HLT today. Did a 1 hour test boil in the BK! Checked out evaporation rates and condensation buildup. Everything working great! HLT climbed and held steady at 170. BK went from 90F to 210F in about 25 minutes. Looks like running PID in manual mode at 100 gives me a nice rigorous boil with the 4500w element in the 10 gallon vessel starting with 7 gallons of water. Little bit of water buildup inside the bottom of the fan. I might have to drill a hole in the bottom and lay a little drip tray or something.

 

[sethhobrin]

Finished designing the plumbing. Ordered the 2nd pump, CFC, lots of stainless QDs, clear silicone tubing, 3-way ball valves, etc.... Waiting for parts to arrive.

I am happy with how the design turned out. HLT will feed the MT with gravity. The rest is pump controlled.