It's Barleywine time again and I have some yeast questions

[imaguitargod]

Well, as an update, I brewed it, nailed my SG and it's calming down on fermentation as we speak.

I want to throw some wine yeast into there and built those guys up a little so that when I rack it into my bottling bucket there will be some of those yeasties floating around in the high alcohol to carb the bottles.

What yeast should I use? I was looking at WLP720 and just throwing the vial in there.

 

[kanzimonson]

I don't think you should pitch the wine yeast in while it's still fermenting. In fact, I don't think you should use wine yeast at all. Once there are no more fermentable sugars available in a wort/beer, yeast will settle to the bottom. Also, once alcohol levels reach a certain level, yeast will settle to the bottom (or die). Even though wine yeast are more tolerable to high alcohol, they will still settle out.

As I said above, you'll do better to pitch a small but healthy culture of new yeast at the time of bottling. Either rehydrate some dry yeast (which are already completely ready to start fermenting whatever bottling sugar you give them), or build a liquid yeast culture to high krausen (for the same reason) and then pitch at bottling.

I would much rather pitch the exact same yeast I did primary fermentation with - who knows if you introduce a different strain of yeast if they'll not only consume the bottling sugar you give them, but also any leftover sugars in the beer that your primary yeast couldn't?

 

[CharlosCarlies]

As I said above, you'll do better to pitch a small but healthy culture of new yeast at the time of bottling. Either rehydrate some dry yeast

Agreed. Supposedly S-05 is the same strain as WLP001, so I'd just pitch one pack of it and be done w/ it. Cheaper and easier IMO.

 

[NotALamer]

The BCS American Barleywine recipe is 1.115 with WLP001 and doesn't mention needing to pitch any more yeast, it just says, "When finished, carbonate the beer to approximately 2 to 2.5 volumes." I think it'll probably be fine without any additions. If it manages to ferment out the complex sugars to whatever alcohol level it ends up with, it shouldn't have any problem with corn sugar or whatever you're using to prime.

 

[kanzimonson]

You pretty much only get one chance to bottle condition a beer. I'd rather spend the $1.50 on the dry yeast to help ensure carbonation, so you'll actually have a beer that you can save for many years and enjoy drinking.

 

[imaguitargod]

You pretty much only get one chance to bottle condition a beer. I'd rather spend the $1.50 on the dry yeast to help ensure carbonation, so you'll actually have a beer that you can save for many years and enjoy drinking.

Well, technically if it doesn't carb I could throw it into a corny keg and prime it then rebottle...so I have two chances, but ya, not going that rout. I have too much trouble on my big beers not carbing that I think I'll go the wine yeast rout in bottling....

Bubt if it doesn't ferment out, I'll be adding wine yeast anyways, so problem solved. I'm taking a gravity reading tomarrow to see where it's at.

 

[Brew-boy]

I made this same beer 2 vials of 001 into a 4L starter and went from 1.117 to 1.02 no problems. Just pitched applied temp control and waited till it was done.

 

[MeetsCriteria]

I brewed "OLD MONSTER" on Nov 8th, bottled Dec 12th.

Yeast was WLP001.

I made a 1L starter and pitched on a pale ale. 3 weeks later I brewed a robust porter, pitched on the pale ale cake, right in the conical. 2 weeks later I brewed OLD Monster. For that, I actually drained the yeast from the conical into a sterilized 5L Erlenmeyer, and let it settle over night, the day before brewing. Decanted the porter from the slurry. I had 1L of pure slurry. Cleaned / Sanitized the fermenter and brewed. Was able to use 1oz of my homegrown Chinook at flame out, which was a nice bonus! Plus at the time of the yeast harvest, I saved another jar of yeast for my next batch. All from one original yeast vial, using proper sanitary practices.

OG for OMBW was 1.116
I aearated the wort for 30 min (aquarium pump / SS stone), pitched the slurry at 67 deg F. At 6 days I drained the trub. At 10 days, I roused the yeast (shook the conical). Ferm'd at temp controlled 68F. At 5 weeks I bottled it, pitching new US-05 for insurance purposes.

FG at the time of bottling was 1.019. That's 12.9% ABV and over 83% attenuation. Bottled 24x22 oz bottles, 4x750ml bottles, 1x16oz bottle. Tasted great out of the fermenter. Can't imagine what 6+ months is going to do for this beer.

The moral is, if you follow that recipe, and pitch enough healthy yeast, WLP001 will do the job, no problem. If anything, it over-attenuated!

Hope this helps all who read this post...

Cheers,

Mike

 

[imaguitargod]

Well, I checked the gravity yesturday...1.050 after 2 weeks...eek! So I shooke the fermentor a little (splashed things around), and this morning I rocked it a little again. I'll check the gravity again in a few days......

May have to pitch wine yeast regardless to finish it off.

 

[twohands]

2 weeks and that level of attenuation? Did you oxygenate? I'm lazy, so what was the OG again?

 

[imaguitargod]

2 weeks and that level of attenuation? Did you oxygenate? I'm lazy, so what was the OG again?

The OG was 1.119 and I oxygenated the hell out of the beer.

 

[NotALamer]

I think he means with oxygen and an airstone.

 

[twohands]

Yeah, I was asking about an o2 tank and airstone.

Oxy-tank or sloshing?

Ferment temp?

 

[imaguitargod]

I think he means with oxygen and an airstone.

Yeah, I was asking about an o2 tank and airstone.

Oxy-tank or sloshing?

Ferment temp?

Oh! Sorry. I sloshed it, don't have an air stone yet (I do have an aquarium pump...maybe I shoyuld start working on that....). The ferm temp was 66F.

 

[twohands]

saccharomyces said - "Oxygenate it with an O2 stone at pitching and 12 hours after pitching (I would not even attempt a 1.120 beer without an O2 stone, sorry). Keep fermentation temperature in check. That's about it...."

Sloshing will get you about 8ppm of dissolved O2. I'm guessing that is the limiting factor. I've done some pretty big beers, and some HUGE meads OK, but I have an o2 tank and an airstone. My LHBS owner suggests sloshing and them pouring from the fermenter into a second sanitized container 12-24 hours later if you don't have an O2 rig - he calls it "dropping".

I'd suggest giving it a mighty swirl as a minimum, and I'd think about dropping it into a second fermentor to break up the CO2 and maybe add a little oxy. (Think transfer to secondary here, but maybe a little more "aggressively" than through a racking cane.) I know you don't want to oxidize your beer, but there's enough yeast there that it should suck the O2 out pretty fast.

There's LOTS of guys WAAAYYY more experienced than me here - maybe one of them can offer a second opinion.

 

[MeetsCriteria]

I should have mentioned, when I pumped my wort to the fermenter from the boiler, I had a siphon sprayer on the end of my tubing, which likely also helps I am sure. It's something like 2.99 at northernbrewer, probably the same at other places. Pure oxygen is likely the gold standard, but if I were going to spend my $$ on one side of the "proper attenuation" coin, it'd be on the pitching enough yeast / temp control side. Pure O2 aeration is great I am sure, but, as of yet, I have never had a beer not fully attenuate using the aquarium pump / siphon sprayer combo.

 

[twohands]

Pure oxygen is likely the gold standard, but if I were going to spend my $$ on one side of the "proper attenuation" coin, it'd be on the pitching enough yeast / temp control side. Pure O2 aeration is great I am sure, but, as of yet, I have never had a beer not fully attenuate using the aquarium pump / siphon sprayer combo.

+1

More O2 won't compensate for too low a pitch rate. The OP SHOULD have a decent "starter" in his half converted wort now - what tricks are there to help him get completed attenuation.

FYI - there was an article about this topic in July/Aug BYO -

http://byo.com/component/resource/article/1950-attenuation-advanced-brewing

 

[NotALamer]

If you can't get it to attenuate as far as you want you should repitch. I would suggest making a starter of at least a gallon and it should be pitched at high kraeusen. You may not want to dump a gallon of starter wort into your barleywine so you could let the 4l starter ferment out, refrigerate for a day or two, decant off the wort, add 0.5-1l of new starter wort, let that reach high kraeusen, and then pitch. It is important not to refrigerate too early so the yeasties have a chance to build up their glycogen reserves, and it is even more important to pitch at high kraeusen, otherwise the yeast will likely just flocculate and not help your attenuation.

 

[leoglenwood]

I brewed Old Monster - but ruined it by bottling with a fresh yeast Saf-04 (although I had it in secondary for two months) and 5 oz priming sugar.
I would bottle with 1/2 cup corn sugar and not re-yeast.

FYI: I brewed a pale ale and put Old Monster on the cake with 02 stone; the 02 stone has made the most difference in my FGs of any tweaking in my process so I highly recommend you do it; I got it for fairly cheap from Williams brewing (online) and then you get the $10 disposable 02 tanks.

last: I had a better experience brewing barleywine with British yeast; the White Labs 007 yeast did a better job than the 001 for me

 

[passedpawn]

Be prepared with a massive starter and aerate the living snot out of the wort.

Have you given any thought to your intended OG?

Be careful, and I disagree from experience. If you use a yeast cake from a previous beer (which I recommend), I would not aerate too much. I added oxygen to a big barleywine and had a blow off of such epic proportions... lost almost HALF of it out the blow off tube. Yes, that is true.

 

[MeetsCriteria]

I brewed Old Monster - but ruined it by bottling with a fresh yeast Saf-04 (although I had it in secondary for two months) and 5 oz priming sugar.
I would bottle with 1/2 cup corn sugar and not re-yeast.

How did you ruin it? Bottle bombs? Wrong yeast for style? I don't understand...

 

[passedpawn]

How did you ruin it? Bottle bombs? Wrong yeast for style? I don't understand...

I would be interested in this answer as well. I have a barleywine that hasn't carbed at all since being bottled in August. It sat in primary for 5 weeks. (I should note that it took first place at my local clubs barleywine contest recently! Totally flat)

I plan on opeing the bottles, adding yeast, and rebottling over the holidays. Please comment. Thanks.

 

[psychobrawler]

I'm in a similar situation with a RIS right now. 1.110 OG and down to 1.030 after 10 days. It's close, but I'd like to push it down a little further and I'm worried about carbonation. I'm planning on giving it another week before I take another reading, but in the meantime I'm kind of planning my "what ifs." I used WL0004 - Irish Ale with a 1 Liter starter (I know, too small) and it took off hard enough that I lost nearly a gallon out of the blow off tube in the first 48 hours. I did not use a stone, but aerated with shaking every couple of hours for 3 or 4 sessions, and I resuspended the yeast with some pretty vigorous shaking after 4 days and again after 8. I was considering a wine yeast to finish, but I'm close enough to my target of 1.020 that I think it's overkill now. It is very sweet though, and I'd like to push it a little further. Is there any benefit to trying a yeast energizer/nutrient and re-oxygenating with a stone? Would there be any benefit to growing up a new starter and repitching with the SG this close to target? Or am I best to just call it good and accept that I've made a very sweet RIS?...

Not trying to hijack the thread, just thought the situation is related enough to the OPs that any responses may be relavent.
Thanks.

 

[imaguitargod]

Not trying to hijack the thread, just thought the situation is related enough to the OPs that any responses may be relavent.
Thanks.

No worries, mate!

 

[imaguitargod]

Ok, I check my gravity again today after roushing the fermentor last Friday and my gravity is 1.046 (as apposed to 1.053 which was 4 days ago). There's a TON of yeast in suspension...could that be adding a bunch of gravity points?

I'm thinking about just sloshing it around for about 10 seconds to introduce more O2. If by Saturday it isn't down to 1.030, I'm pitching Wine Yeast.

 

[remilard]

Apparently the 099 is for distillers who are only interested in alcohol content and not delicious beery esters, etc.

WLP009 is not a distiller's yeast, it is the Thomas Hardy strain.

 

[maskednegator]

Particles in suspension don't add to SG, only particles in solution will have any effect.

 

[NotALamer]

Is there any benefit to trying a yeast energizer/nutrient and re-oxygenating with a stone? Would there be any benefit to growing up a new starter and repitching with the SG this close to target? Or am I best to just call it good and accept that I've made a very sweet RIS?...

Not trying to hijack the thread, just thought the situation is related enough to the OPs that any responses may be relavent.
Thanks.

Adding yeast nutrient won't make a difference at this point, and oxygenation will most likely just give you oxidized beer. Your best bet, if the sweetness bothers you that much, is to repitch like I mentioned earlier.

 

[psychobrawler]

Adding yeast nutrient won't make a difference at this point, and oxygenation will most likely just give you oxidized beer. Your best bet, if the sweetness bothers you that much, is to repitch like I mentioned earlier.

I think you're probably right. I'm going to give it another week or so like I said and check it again. I'm not seeing any signs of active fermentation any more, but I'm sure it would be pretty slow by now regardless.

If I haven't moved down any further in another week I'll decide whether to accept the sweetness or start growing up a good culture to repitch. I'm planning on aging in a secondary on some oak chips and bourbon, so I'm thinking the sweet taste will play OK with that if that's what happens. I'm more concerned with bottle conditioning at this point.

 

[psychobrawler]

Ok, I check my gravity again today after roushing the fermentor last Friday and my gravity is 1.046 (as apposed to 1.053 which was 4 days ago). There's a TON of yeast in suspension...could that be adding a bunch of gravity points?

I'm thinking about just sloshing it around for about 10 seconds to introduce more O2. If by Saturday it isn't down to 1.030, I'm pitching Wine Yeast.

It's obviously going very slow, but if you're measuring a drop from read to read then some activity is still happening. Wouldn't it be better to wait until you have consecutive readings with no change before repitching? From my reading of the discussions around high gravity brews, it doesn't sound that uncommon for them to take several weeks to ferment out. It may take some extra patience, but as long as the gravity keeps dropping I'd probably restrain from introducing a different yeast than what you've got working.