Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[isomerization]

Why is that?

Because the T-58 yeast might not be killed by the CBC-1 yeast. That was the primary "reason" why it was thought that S-04, T-58 and WB-06 were primary yeasts. I still think that, but wanted to point out the potential observation.

Needs more wb-06. Or T-58. Or both. This is too clean compared to TH. No complaints drinking it though. Carbonation seems on the right track and citra, mosaic and simcoe (some Amarillo too) are always good.

If I remember correctly, this batch you went higher on the S-04 than before right? I think I will hold with my 60:20:20 strategy and try to ferment at 74F. That might be overkill, but at least I will know that way...

 

[NJGeorge]

Because the T-58 yeast might not be killed by the CBC-1 yeast. That was the primary "reason" why it was thought that S-04, T-58 and WB-06 were primary yeasts. I still think that, but wanted to point out the potential observation.



If I remember correctly, this batch you went higher on the S-04 than before right? I think I will hold with my 60:20:20 strategy and try to ferment at 74F. That might be overkill, but at least I will know that way...

I fermented at 70-72 and the beer was super clear and dry. Just curious, but why ferment at 74 when supposedly treehouse ferments at 66?

 

[isomerization]

I fermented at 70-72 and the beer was super clear and dry. Just curious, but why ferment at 74 when supposedly treehouse ferments at 66?

I've never fermented a NE IPA that cool personally. But I suppose the rationale is to increase ester (and glycerol) production? My understanding is that FG will be dictated by a variety of variables, including grain bill, mash temp, yeast strain and yeast health. What I don't think will affect the FG is fermentation temp. The speed with which fermentation completes will be affected, but not FG. Someone can correct me here though if I'm wrong.

 

[melville]

Because the T-58 yeast might not be killed by the CBC-1 yeast. That was the primary "reason" why it was thought that S-04, T-58 and WB-06 were primary yeasts. I still think that, but wanted to point out the potential observation.



If I remember correctly, this batch you went higher on the S-04 than before right? I think I will hold with my 60:20:20 strategy and try to ferment at 74F. That might be overkill, but at least I will know that way...

90% S04. Definitely going to increase my amounts of the others in the next attempt.

On the T-58. If the T-58 is used with CBC-1 wouldn't it make sense that T-58 is in all of their beers (double shot)?

 

[isomerization]

90% S04. Definitely going to increase my amounts of the others in the next attempt.

On the T-58. If the T-58 is used with CBC-1 wouldn't it make sense that T-58 is in all of their beers (double shot)?

I only brought that up as a possibility, I still thinking they are using the 3 yeasts in primary. And I'm not sure any of this really makes sense

 

[melville]

I asked Weyermann re: protein amount in carafoam. 11-12%, or roughly inline with oats. Have noted on the internet that some brewers adhering to Reinheitsgebot will use carafoam as a substitute for wheat/oats for adding body.

This is from a thread on Reddit:

"As far as I know, the greatest contribution to head retention and body of undermodified malts like carafoam or chit malt is that you have more control over the types of proteins and glycoproteins via step/decoction mashes. With more modified malts, a lot of this base-level protein degredation is in the hands of the maltster. How much chit or carafoam type malts differ flavor or protein-wise from flaked wheat, I'm not sure, but I know flaked/totally raw barley can get a bit strong in lighter beers. I honestly think there isn't much difference compared to flaked wheat, and chit or carafoam is just a modern flaked barley or wheat alternative for German brewers who want to remain traditional and abide by the Reinheitsgebot.
It's all goal-driven: Want a grain that's high in protein that you can break down into a bunch of medium-weight foam-positive protein through a protein rest? Go with a flaked grain.
Don't want to use flaked barley because of the raw barley flavor? Go with flaked wheat
Don't wan't to use flaked barley or flaked wheat for traditional or flavor reasons? Go with an undermodified chit malt or carafoam."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/4emd5s/a_minimash_test_to_unveil_some_qualities_of/#bottom-comments

The mad fermentationist recently went to 50% with carafoam in 2% ABV NEIPA:
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/06/23-abv-session-neipa.html

Just food for thought.

 

[couchsending]

Then there's the Brulosophy experiment on Carapils and at 10% it had zero affect on the beer, if anything a negative affect on foam???

So Carafoam is sweeter than Carapils according to Morebeer?

 

[melville]

Then there's the Brulosophy experiment on Carapils and at 10% it had zero affect on the beer, if anything a negative affect on foam???

So Carafoam is sweeter than Carapils according to Morebeer?

Well also 18% oats had no effect (excepting slightly in appearance) in a separate experiment there. FWIW Carafoam isn't the same as carapils though and we know TH uses carafoam and Nate specifically mentioned carafoam as way to create fine, non-murk haze in an IPA. My thinking is swap what you might use for oats (18%) for carafoam. 5% isn't enough to look like Julius/Green based on my beer. 30% is probably too much based on a previous beer I've done. (reminder using carafoam as a haze/mouthfeel enhancer purely based on Nate's comments: "no flaked anything." "no wheat." "most of their beers do not use oats." "use 2-row and carafoam for haze in an IPA)"

 

[couchsending]

Then there's this that states Carapils and Carafoam are actually very different. Briess Carapils won't convert and should only be used up to 5% where as Carafoam will convert and can be used up to 40%????

https://www.google.com/amp/s/hellba...eer/carapils-the-most-misunderstood-malt/amp/

 

[isomerization]

That makes sense, so Briess Carapils (used in the Brulosophy exp) is not the same as Carafoam/pils (Weyermann), which is what was seen at TH. I think a great test would be an 80:20 two-row/carafoam beer. Maybe some C60 and/or honey malt for color and sweetness?

 

[melville]

That makes sense, so Briess Carapils (used in the Brulosophy exp) is not the same as Carafoam/pils (Weyermann), which is what was seen at TH. I think a great test would be an 80:20 two-row/carafoam beer. Maybe some C60 and/or honey malt for color and sweetness?

That's exactly what I put into Beersmith this morning for this weekend's attempt. (with 3% C40).

 

[isomerization]

That's exactly what I put into Beersmith this morning for this weekend's attempt. (with 3% C40).

 

[drelickj]

I definitely believe it is possible to have haze without flaked adjuncts in the grist. Even the brulosophy experiment with flaked oats produced two hazy beers and one was just maris otter IIRC. I wonder if we need to maintain relative consistency in our grain bills to try and crack the yeast puzzle though. For example, I know that it was a small sample but there were different amounts of S-04 and WB-06 colonies in each of the beers tested. Could it be that the amount of WB-06 added needs to scale with %ABV or OG perhaps? I haven't looked back at the final colony counts but maybe Julius at 6.8% uses a smaller amount than Haze at 8%.

 

[melville]

I definitely believe it is possible to have haze without flaked adjuncts in the grist. Even the brulosophy experiment with flaked oats produced two hazy beers and one was just maris otter IIRC. I wonder if we need to maintain relative consistency in our grain bills to try and crack the yeast puzzle though. For example, I know that it was a small sample but there were different amounts of S-04 and WB-06 colonies in each of the beers tested. Could it be that the amount of WB-06 added needs to scale with %ABV or OG perhaps? I haven't looked back at the final colony counts but maybe Julius at 6.8% uses a smaller amount than Haze at 8%.

I've been trying to stick to 6.5% FWIW (not that the yeast is cooperating with this 85% attenuation rate I'm getting.)

 

[couchsending]

I think it would be really hard to determine the ratios just based off what's left and harvested from a beer just due to the different flocculating properties of all the yeasts in play.

 

[isomerization]

Question, has anyone here ever made a starter from S-04? Mine (TH isolate) has that clumpy thing going on that is traditionally seen in WY1968. Not sure whether that is expected or not.

 

[skibb]

Question, has anyone here ever made a starter from S-04? Mine (TH isolate) has that clumpy thing going on that is traditionally seen in WY1968. Not sure whether that is expected or not.

I have and it looks like egg drop soup!

I'm pitching S-04 into an IPA as we speak, I'm going to have my micro sample and plate it out. He works for an alcohol testing company full time and he has stated he has never gotten a totally clean sample from Fermentis products. We plate on several different types of media and I will post my results here (will likely be 8 days or so).

On carapils: Scott Janish brewed a beer with 50% carapils in the grist. It attenuated as a beer normally would. Makes me think carapils is BS.

http://scottjanish.com/dextrins-and-mouthfeel/

 

[isomerization]

I have and it looks like egg drop soup!

I'm pitching S-04 into an IPA as we speak, I'm going to have my micro sample and plate it out. He works for an alcohol testing company full time and he has stated he has never gotten a totally clean sample from Fermentis products. We plate on several different types of media and I will post my results here (will likely be 8 days or so).

On carapils: Scott Janish brewed a beer with 50% carapils in the grist. It attenuated as a beer normally would. Makes me think carapils is BS.

http://scottjanish.com/dextrins-and-mouthfeel/

Just FYI, he used Briess carapils, not the "legit" Weyermann Carapils/foam. And that is interesting, RE purity with the Fermentis products, kind of surprising to me, but then again they are designed as one of use products, so I doubt you'd ever notice a contamination rate below 1.0% in a beer.

EDIT: Missed the S-04 comment, good deal! I think that further supports the putative IDs we've made.

 

[NJGeorge]

One of the things that has be baffled is how the beer smelled and looked during early fermentation (very good). I pitched 1g WB-06 once the wort chilled to 66. 24 hours later I pitched 11g of S04 and 1g of T-58 all while fermenting at around 70. The aroma coming out of the fermenter after 2-3 days was amazing. Straight fruit juice. The color was also amazing hazy juicy looking. After about 5 days, the beer cleared significantly and the smell wasn't as fruity juicy. Ill post pictures later tonight. Do you think that the T-58 was too much and changed the beer drying it out? Like you guys said previously, maybe T-58 is just used for carbing/conditioning. Interested to see what would happen if just WB-06 and S04 were used as the primary yeast and cut fermentation a little short. My heads spinning. I just don't understand how the color and smell changed so drastically after adding S04 and T-58.

 

[melville]

One of the things that has be baffled is how the beer smelled and looked during early fermentation (very good). I pitched 1g WB-06 once the wort chilled to 66. 24 hours later I pitched 11g of S04 and 1g of T-58 all while fermenting at around 70. The aroma coming out of the fermenter after 2-3 days was amazing. Straight fruit juice. The color was also amazing hazy juicy looking. After about 5 days, the beer cleared significantly and the smell wasn't as fruity juicy. Ill post pictures later tonight. Do you think that the T-58 was too much and changed the beer drying it out? Like you guys said previously, maybe T-58 is just used for carbing/conditioning. Interested to see what would happen if just WB-06 and S04 were used as the primary yeast and cut fermentation a little short. My heads spinning. I just don't understand how the color and smell changed so drastically after adding S04 and T-58.

If Fermentis' charts are to be believed, WB-06 is the attenuator, T-58 is the beast mode fermenter, while s-04's flocculation is rated "high".

WB-06 also offers twice the amount of esters according to their specs.

 

[mbbransc]

I brewed an experimental batch on 07/15; pitched 60% S-04 at 68°F. 48hrs post-pitch, added 1st dry hop and 20% WB06 and 20% T58 and cranked temp to 75°F. Signs of fermentation completely quickly. Twice I've attempted to pull samples to measure and there is just too much muck still in suspension. I went ahead and did my 2nd & 3rd dry hops per usual. I plan to cold crash tonight so hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to get a sample. 2/1/1 Citra/Mosaic/Simcoe dry hops.

 

[isomerization]

Some observations from my starters (1.040 DME) of the TH isolates, which were grown on an orbital shaker at 30C for 48 hr before cold crashing for 48 hr at 4C.

Both S-04 and T-58 finished at 1.004, while WB-06 stopped at 1.009. Could be that WB-06 is slow at this temp or in general. Or maybe this strain isn't as attenuative, kinda strange though, almost has to be a time thing.

WB-06 dropped crystal clear, T-58 was slightly hazy and S-04 looked like a NE IPA (will upload a pic later).

WB-06 smelled ever so slightly fruity with a minor tart note. S-04 was super clean. T-58 was straight Juicy Fruit bubblegum! Stinkybeer wasn't lying!

Marshallb, can I ask where the idea to pitch WB-06 first by itself came from? I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to pitch T-58 at like 75F first, then add S-04 and WB-06?

My plan to pitch 60:20:20 and ferment at 75F remains. Brew day this weekend.

 

[melville]

Some observations from my starters (1.040 DME) of the TH isolates, which were grown on an orbital shaker at 30C for 48 hr before cold crashing for 48 hr at 4C.

Both S-04 and T-58 finished at 1.004, while WB-06 stopped at 1.009. Could be that WB-06 is slow at this temp or in general. Or maybe this strain isn't as attenuative, kinda strange though, almost has to be a time thing.

WB-06 dropped crystal clear, T-58 was slightly hazy and S-04 looked like a NE IPA (will upload a pic later).

WB-06 smelled ever so slightly fruity with a minor tart note. S-04 was super clean. T-58 was straight Juicy Fruit bubblegum! Stinkybeer wasn't lying!

Marshallb, can I ask where the idea to pitch WB-06 first by itself came from? I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to pitch T-58 at like 75F first, then add S-04 and WB-06?

My plan to pitch 60:20:20 and ferment at 75F remains. Brew day this weekend.

Give me those pics! So interesting. WB-06 attenuates at half the speed of the other two, but goes on to attenuate much more per their specs/charts.

Just noticed that T-58 literally comes in bubblegum colored sachets.

 

[isomerization]

All 3 beakers are the same depth, so don't let the varying liquid heights fool you.

 

[marshallb]

Some observations from my starters (1.040 DME) of the TH isolates, which were grown on an orbital shaker at 30C for 48 hr before cold crashing for 48 hr at 4C.

Both S-04 and T-58 finished at 1.004, while WB-06 stopped at 1.009. Could be that WB-06 is slow at this temp or in general. Or maybe this strain isn't as attenuative, kinda strange though, almost has to be a time thing.

WB-06 dropped crystal clear, T-58 was slightly hazy and S-04 looked like a NE IPA (will upload a pic later).

WB-06 smelled ever so slightly fruity with a minor tart note. S-04 was super clean. T-58 was straight Juicy Fruit bubblegum! Stinkybeer wasn't lying!

Marshallb, can I ask where the idea to pitch WB-06 first by itself came from? I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to pitch T-58 at like 75F first, then add S-04 and WB-06?

My plan to pitch 60:20:20 and ferment at 75F remains. Brew day this weekend.

You certainly deserve my findings.
I think you'd be better off under tossing wb06 and s04 by about 50% at 74* through the growth phase. Fermentis told me in an email that your esters are volatile and will blow off through rigorous fermentation. This is why I embraced the 62* reading from photos of Treehouse with knowledge that hydrostatic pressure puts me at 60* on a homebrew scale. So I let the yeast develop its ester profile at a high temp, then when those esters are fully developed I crashed the wort to slow fermentation and control volatile aromatic release. (this is also your safe zone for adding hop aroma/flavor)
After a full fermentation schedule, the beer was ready to keg.
Don't pass off chemistry, don't overwhelm your malts (I'm dialing back), and let the esters come forward.
I was told by lots of people that my last beer had more aroma than Treehouse. It was fantastic, the best beer I've ever made.
* for those of you who are ending up with dry beer - mash higher and keep your mash at 156/7* throughout the mashing process. WB-06 drops to 71% atten at 157*
My beer finished overwhelmingly juicy and so crushable it crushed itself. Temp control and pitching is a bit of a headache, but like @ Ruckusz28 said - it's necessary.
I hope this helps some.

 

[melville]

You certainly deserve my findings.
I think you'd be better off under tossing wb06 and s04 by about 50% at 74* through the growth phase. Fermentis told me in an email that your esters are volatile and will blow off through rigorous fermentation. This is why I embraced the 62* reading from photos of Treehouse with knowledge that hydrostatic pressure puts me at 60* on a homebrew scale. So I let the yeast develop its ester profile at a high temp, then when those esters are fully developed I crashed the wort to slow fermentation and control volatile aromatic release. (this is also your safe zone for adding hop aroma/flavor)
After a full fermentation schedule, the beer was ready to keg.
Don't pass off chemistry, don't overwhelm your malts (I'm dialing back), and let the esters come forward.
I was told by lots of people that my last beer had more aroma than Treehouse. It was fantastic, the best beer I've ever made.
* for those of you who are ending up with dry beer - mash higher and keep your mash at 156/7* throughout the mashing process. WB-06 drops to 71% atten at 157*
My beer finished overwhelmingly juicy and so crushable it crushed itself. Temp control and pitching is a bit of a headache, but like @ Ruckusz28 said - it's necessary.
I hope this helps some.

If I punch in @marshallb 's ratio I get 11g:1g:1g for a five gallon batch which is roughly 84%:8%:8%. I did 90:7:3, but it sounds like @marshallb got a lot more out of his wb-06 at a similar percentage by pitching solo (for 24 hrs if I remember correctly?).

@marshallb — I know you wanted to make some grist changes, but would you change your yeast percentages next time? Did Fermentis tell you that WB-06 attenuation drops to 71% at 157F? Also if you can remember what was you total attenuation on this batch?

 

[isomerization]

You certainly deserve my findings.
I think you'd be better off under tossing wb06 and s04 by about 50% at 74* through the growth phase. Fermentis told me in an email that your esters are volatile and will blow off through rigorous fermentation. This is why I embraced the 62* reading from photos of Treehouse with knowledge that hydrostatic pressure puts me at 60* on a homebrew scale. So I let the yeast develop its ester profile at a high temp, then when those esters are fully developed I crashed the wort to slow fermentation and control volatile aromatic release. (this is also your safe zone for adding hop aroma/flavor)
After a full fermentation schedule, the beer was ready to keg.
Don't pass off chemistry, don't overwhelm your malts (I'm dialing back), and let the esters come forward.
I was told by lots of people that my last beer had more aroma than Treehouse. It was fantastic, the best beer I've ever made.
* for those of you who are ending up with dry beer - mash higher and keep your mash at 156/7* throughout the mashing process. WB-06 drops to 71% atten at 157*
My beer finished overwhelmingly juicy and so crushable it crushed itself. Temp control and pitching is a bit of a headache, but like @ Ruckusz28 said - it's necessary.
I hope this helps some.

This is high praise!!

For the sake of everyone in this thread, can you provide a bit more detail of the exact process you would go with? Temp, timing and dry weights please, along with your dry hop,addition schedule. Also, did you try keg conditioning with CBC-1 on this batch or force carb?

I think this could be extremely helpful as everyone tries different grain bills to help us dial in on a "clone".

 

[Ruckusz28]

I am brewing vicariously through all of you until the insurance company decides the fate of my brewing equipment. Sounds like we're getting close. Bring er' home!

 

[NJGeorge]

Amazing stuff guys! Getting there! Time to buy a temp controlled fermenter.

 

[marshallb]

If I punch in @marshallb 's ratio I get 11g:1g:1g for a five gallon batch which is roughly 84%:8%:8%. I did 90:7:3, but it sounds like @marshallb got a lot more out of his wb-06 at a similar percentage by pitching solo (for 24 hrs if I remember correctly?).

@marshallb — I know you wanted to make some grist changes, but would you change your yeast percentages next time? Did Fermentis tell you that WB-06 attenuation drops to 71% at 157F? Also if you can remember what was you total attenuation on this batch?

Yes I would. I think the exact percentage is less important than the retained amount of higher and more complex esters. The next round I'll co-pitch 04 and 06 together by about 50% under for 24 hours, then drop the temp and add the 58 to let fermentation complete.
The attenuation drop is registered and reflected in BeerSmith when the mash is adjusted.

This is high praise!!

For the sake of everyone in this thread, can you provide a bit more detail of the exact process you would go with? Temp, timing and dry weights please, along with your dry hop,addition schedule. Also, did you try keg conditioning with CBC-1 on this batch or force carb?

I think this could be extremely helpful as everyone tries different grain bills to help us dial in on a "clone".

Happy to!
I'd say what I'm finding now is Julius to be less of a hop driven beer than I ever imagined. To me it now comes across as a perfect Golden Triangle of hops/esters/malt. I'm dropping the wheat and simplifying my malts to bring forward the esters. I'd also suggest smaller dry hop charges (although I'll fail to control myself here) in an effort to balance the beer more and let the esters shine through some. Watching previous posts about simplified grist makes me wonder about larger amounts of carafoam and maybe just a Weyermann 2 row. Those experiments will just require more brewing.
Next fermentation will be:
5 grams of S-04/5 grams of WB-06 at 75* for 24 hours
Drop temp to 60* and add 5 grams of S-04 and 2 grams of T-58 for duration of ferm.
(I'm not using CBC-1 because I don't see where it fits. The simplest explanation to me is, he's sabotaging the beer? More than that, I don't want to replicate his process exactly...I just want to get really really really really close lol)

It's important to note that I got ZERO bavarian or hef character in my last beer. It was all juicy fruit and fresh squeezed citrus. I kicked my keg last night and it was the quickest beer to ever kick here at this house. I force carbed in under 48 hours with 40lbs of gas for 24 hours then backed off to let the head pressure dissolve into solution. I don't purge for serving and have never had a problem doing this. The mouthfeel was reported to be just as soft as Treehouse with velvety carbonation and I usually carb to around 12lbs. My thoughts are simple on the chemistry - soft water = soft beer. I'm going up a tad on my sulfate though and will keep my ratio at 66% for a 100:150 high sulfate ppm.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I'm guessing CBC is pitched with T-58 together with some wort for natural carbonation, and the CBC is included to keep the T-58 under control due to its attenuation. I am skeptical that your beer had completely finished fermentation, because I'm pretty sure that T-58 would keep munching regardless of mash temp. It's possible that it slows down enough at 60 for your process to have ended at the right time. Regardless, thanks for the info! I may be giving that approach a shot

 

[marshallb]

I'm guessing CBC is pitched with T-58 together with some wort for natural carbonation, and the CBC is included to keep the T-58 under control due to its attenuation. I am skeptical that your beer had completely finished fermentation, because I'm pretty sure that T-58 would keep munching regardless of mash temp. It's possible that it slows down enough at 60 for your process to have ended at the right time. Regardless, thanks for the info! I may be giving that approach a shot

What does that mean in bold?
I'm sure it was terminal though. I shipped out 2 bombers, one went all the way to Canada from Houston.
Fermentis states 70% attenuation from T-58. I saw 73% overall with a 3 day d-rest mashing at 157*.

 

[isomerization]

Yes I would. I think the exact percentage is less important than the retained amount of higher and more complex esters. The next round I'll co-pitch 04 and 06 together by about 50% under for 24 hours, then drop the temp and add the 58 to let fermentation complete.
The attenuation drop is registered and reflected in BeerSmith when the mash is adjusted.


Happy to!
I'd say what I'm finding now is Julius to be less of a hop driven beer than I ever imagined. To me it now comes across as a perfect Golden Triangle of hops/esters/malt. I'm dropping the wheat and simplifying my malts to bring forward the esters. I'd also suggest smaller dry hop charges (although I'll fail to control myself here) in an effort to balance the beer more and let the esters shine through some. Watching previous posts about simplified grist makes me wonder about larger amounts of carafoam and maybe just a Weyermann 2 row. Those experiments will just require more brewing.
Next fermentation will be:
5 grams of S-04/5 grams of WB-06 at 75* for 24 hours
Drop temp to 60* and add 5 grams of S-04 and 2 grams of T-58 for duration of ferm.
(I'm not using CBC-1 because I don't see where it fits. The simplest explanation to me is, he's sabotaging the beer? More than that, I don't want to replicate his process exactly...I just want to get really really really really close lol)

It's important to note that I got ZERO bavarian or hef character in my last beer. It was all juicy fruit and fresh squeezed citrus. I kicked my keg last night and it was the quickest beer to ever kick here at this house. I force carbed in under 48 hours with 40lbs of gas for 24 hours then backed off to let the head pressure dissolve into solution. I don't purge for serving and have never had a problem doing this. The mouthfeel was reported to be just as soft as Treehouse with velvety carbonation and I usually carb to around 12lbs. My thoughts are simple on the chemistry - soft water = soft beer. I'm going up a tad on my sulfate though and will keep my ratio at 66% for a 100:150 high sulfate ppm.

My thinking was you'd want to co-pitch WB-06 and T-58 early and under at the high temp to draw out esters. Then drop temp with a full S-04 pitch. To me the juicy fruit T-58 character is the key profile to retain.

 

[crunkpirate]

My thinking was you'd want to co-pitch WB-06 and T-58 early and under at the high temp to draw out esters. Then drop temp with a full S-04 pitch. To me the juicy fruit T-58 character is the key profile to retain.

I was thinking the same. Wouldn't pitching the T-58 @60 put us in the unwanted clove territory?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Fermentis states 70% attenuation from T-58. I saw 73% overall with a 3 day d-rest mashing at 157*.

that would be my point. you still got better than advertised attenuation with a high mash temp. when I used T-58, I didn't like the dryness. TH beers don't come off as that attenuated

 

[marshallb]

In theory maybe? It didn't for me. I got a tiny bit of spice in transfer before carbing, but none carried through.
I fermented t-58 alone without hops as a test before I brewed. It tastes nothing like wb-06 at all to me and had spicy character fermented warm.
I'm not saying do as I do. I'm just saying that's how I'll do it for now. I didn't like the flavor of t-58 warm.

that would be my point. you still got better than advertised attenuation with a high mash temp. when I used T-58, I didn't like the dryness. TH beers don't come off as that attenuated

Which is what I planned for. I mashed at 157 so my beer would stop at 1.016 - that's what it did.
@ruckusz28 mashed at normal IPA temps and his went down to like 1.009 or something. So I went off his advice and mashed higher.

 

[NJGeorge]

Yes I would. I think the exact percentage is less important than the retained amount of higher and more complex esters. The next round I'll co-pitch 04 and 06 together by about 50% under for 24 hours, then drop the temp and add the 58 to let fermentation complete.
The attenuation drop is registered and reflected in BeerSmith when the mash is adjusted.


Happy to!
I'd say what I'm finding now is Julius to be less of a hop driven beer than I ever imagined. To me it now comes across as a perfect Golden Triangle of hops/esters/malt. I'm dropping the wheat and simplifying my malts to bring forward the esters. I'd also suggest smaller dry hop charges (although I'll fail to control myself here) in an effort to balance the beer more and let the esters shine through some. Watching previous posts about simplified grist makes me wonder about larger amounts of carafoam and maybe just a Weyermann 2 row. Those experiments will just require more brewing.
Next fermentation will be:
5 grams of S-04/5 grams of WB-06 at 75* for 24 hours
Drop temp to 60* and add 5 grams of S-04 and 2 grams of T-58 for duration of ferm.
(I'm not using CBC-1 because I don't see where it fits. The simplest explanation to me is, he's sabotaging the beer? More than that, I don't want to replicate his process exactly...I just want to get really really really really close lol)

It's important to note that I got ZERO bavarian or hef character in my last beer. It was all juicy fruit and fresh squeezed citrus. I kicked my keg last night and it was the quickest beer to ever kick here at this house. I force carbed in under 48 hours with 40lbs of gas for 24 hours then backed off to let the head pressure dissolve into solution. I don't purge for serving and have never had a problem doing this. The mouthfeel was reported to be just as soft as Treehouse with velvety carbonation and I usually carb to around 12lbs. My thoughts are simple on the chemistry - soft water = soft beer. I'm going up a tad on my sulfate though and will keep my ratio at 66% for a 100:150 high sulfate ppm.

Sounds amazing cant wait to try this! Can you share some pictures of the beer?

 

[NJGeorge]

Found this in an article online about Treehouse.
Although Lanier says that freshness is the key, Rohan says it’s Lanier’s attention to detail, which is unmatched. “What he does better than anyone is pay attention to details,” says Rohan. “We were brewing a beer once, and we were having trouble getting the heat where we wanted it, so I was working on it. I got it to 158°F and told Nate, ‘It’s ready, let’s mash in.’ He said, ‘No, it has to be 167°F.’ He wouldn’t budge. I said, ‘We’ll have to wait another 25 minutes,’ and he said, ‘Then we’ll wait.’ I needled him about it for weeks after, and then it hit me. Things like that are why we don’t have problems in the brewery and why the beers come out the way they do.”

 

[TheHairyHop]

not to remove any credit, but 9 degrees for mash is a pretty decent difference. I wouldn't call that painstaking attention to detail. multiple pitches of varying ratios of yeast, is certainly detail

 

[melville]

“Nate is a genius,” Mr. Rohan said. “I, literally, can’t tell you what he does different than any other friend that is a brewer that I know, other than the fact that he is 100 percent meticulous about his temperatures, his additions. It all has to be right there. Variables are his nemesis. He doesn’t like variables.”

http://www.telegram.com/news/20170719/tree-house-brewery-draws-beer-lovers-to-new-facility-in-charlton