Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[melville]

I'm getting ready to brew a batch myself consisting of 2row, light on Vienna, carapil, flaked oat and honey malt. Cacl & gypsum RO additions. Any suggestions on a fermentation schedule to try? I have s-04, wb-06, t-58.

Less than 50:30:20 and more 90:7:3 is all I can offer.

 

[NJGeorge]

@melville Grist per below:
2 row pale 10lbs
Flaked barely 4oz
Flaked oats 4oz
Flaked white wheat 4oz
Caramel/crystal 60L 4oz
Honey malt 4oz
OG- 1.062
FG- 1.012

 

[isomerization]

Just an update on my brew using the above yeast and the same schedule as @marshallb but all fermentation was done at around 70 degrees room temp. Definitely no treehouse flavors. The color of the beer is so much lighter than I expected due to using a little bit more water than called for. Flavor is good but I can't put my finger on it or compare it to anything I'm used to. Very drinkable and enjoyable, just not what we're going for here. Abv came out to 6.5% and this beer goes down like water. No tropical, no juicy fruit, no banana, no bubble gum flavors. Just very clean, dry and hoppy tasting beer. As I said before, drinks more like a Cali beer without the bitterness. Hmm

So, if anyone to recalls the S-04 isolate was used to make a NE IPA, alongside 1318. Brews were a weak apart, but the final product came out very similar.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7963050&postcount=23

That leads me to believe S-04 should be the major component, but something was clearly missing. My intention is to go with 60:20:20 (favoring S-04) and ferment on the warm side (probably free rise from 72F. I also intend to keg condition with CBC-1 and the 2nd dry hop.

@melville Grist per below:
2 row pale 10lbs
Flaked barely 4oz
Flaked oats 4oz
Flaked white wheat 4oz
Caramel/crystal 60L 4oz
Honey malt 4oz
OG- 1.062
FG- 1.012

What was your hop schedule like? And would you describe your other NE IPA attempts as hitting the mark? No disrespect intended, just curious.

 

[Sbe2]

So, if anyone to recalls the S-04 isolate was used to make a NE IPA, alongside 1318. Brews were a weak apart, but the final product came out very similar.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7963050&postcount=23

That leads me to believe S-04 should be the major component, but something was clearly missing. My intention is to go with 60:20:20 (favoring S-04) and ferment on the warm side (probably free rise from 72F. I also intend to keg condition with CBC-1 and the 2nd dry hop.



What was your hop schedule like? And would you describe your other NE IPA attempts as hitting the mark? No disrespect intended, just curious.

Do you have a link to the recipe that you used? Is it Braufessor's 1418?

 

[NJGeorge]

No disrespect taken. This is all experimentation for the love of good beer! All the other NE IPA's I have made were with Conan and were hitting the mark, except they would clear after a few weeks. Currently have a Citra IPA with 1318 (first time using it) so Ill see how that comes out.

Hop schedule was similar to Nate's Hoppy Things recipe:
.25oz warrior @ 60min
1oz. Amarillo @ 20min
1oz. Centennial @ 20min
1oz. Citra @ 5min
1oz. Simco @ 5min
1.5oz. Simco @ flame out
1oz. Amarillo @ flame out
1oz. Centennial @ flame out

1st dry hop after two days fermenting:
1oz. each of Amarillo, Citra and Simco

2nd dry hop 3 days after 1st dry hop:
2.5oz. Mosaic and .5oz of Citra

 

[isomerization]

Do you have a link to the recipe that you used? Is it Braufessor's 1418?

The grain bill was inspired by (might have been identical at the time, not sure) Brau's recipe for sure. Here's the link to brewersfriend:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/476866/julius-clone-v2-10-gallon-

The color of those beers is def lighter than what's in the picture, FYI.

 

[melville]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1500645613.402320.jpg

I'm on like... Day 3 in the keg with CBC-1 and dry hop. Some carb in there already.

Reminder:
90% 2-row
5% carapils
5% C-20
Citra, Simcoe, Mosaic
S-04: 90% | WB-06: 7% | T-58: 3%

 

[skibb]

I went 20% WB-06 and got tons of banana, even fermenting lower at 66 F until krausen dropped then let it carry itself up to 70 F to finish out/diacetyl rest.

Maybe fermenting at 72 would favor bubblegum over banana?

 

[TheHairyHop]

I went 20% WB-06 and got tons of banana, even fermenting lower at 66 F until krausen dropped then let it carry itself up to 70 F to finish out/diacetyl rest.

Maybe fermenting at 72 would favor bubblegum over banana?

Man, the guy at my lhbs tried to tell me he only gets clove from that strain, so I didn't bother with it this round. I'll have to try it next time

 

[melville]

I went 20% WB-06 and got tons of banana, even fermenting lower at 66 F until krausen dropped then let it carry itself up to 70 F to finish out/diacetyl rest.

Maybe fermenting at 72 would favor bubblegum over banana?

I think I'm doing 15/10 on the WB-06/T-58 next time. The thing is I think you need banana to get to something like bubble gum, it just has to be at such a level that it doesn't exceed the fruity esters. Even the "bubblegum" isn't something most people say about TH, some people pick up on it, but I think whatever wb-06 and t-58 are contributing are below the threshold level for most people. It's possible that they might be there for other reasons to — attenuation, haze, mouthfeel and god knows what. Like — why is T-58 in double shot?

 

[melville]

Man, the guy at my lhbs tried to tell me he only gets clove from that strain, so I didn't bother with it this round. I'll have to try it next time

I did't get exactly banana, but something very Hefe-ish in a weird banana way.
To be fair, with a week in the keg it sort of all came together and was really good, but still I think revealing too much of itself.

 

[isomerization]

View attachment 408109

I'm on like... Day 3 in the keg with CBC-1 and dry hop. Some carb in there already.

Reminder:
90% 2-row
5% carapils
5% C-20
Citra, Simcoe, Mosaic
S-04: 90% | WB-06: 7% | T-58: 3%

I can't remember if its you or Marshall that is using the staggered pitching approach? I'd prefer to pitch everything at the same time (at least for the first try). I'm wondering if 70:15:15 might be more appropriate or even 60:30:10 (S-04:T-58:WB-06)? Not brewing until next weekend.

 

[Ruckusz28]

Though inconvenient, the only issue with pitching at the same time is that you will lose a critical element of control. By pitching a yeast early, you have the ability to coax esters out at a higher temperature in the beginning of fermentation. Then you could reduce temperatures to pitch the remainder of the yeast to mitigate undesirable esters/over attenuation/lost aroma etc.

Prior to the fire, I had those esters going on. I intended to move the fermenter to a cool chamber, but was unable to due to no power. Following fermentation, all of those esters were gone and the beer was too dry.

 

[NJGeorge]

View attachment 408109

I'm on like... Day 3 in the keg with CBC-1 and dry hop. Some carb in there already.

Reminder:
90% 2-row
5% carapils
5% C-20
Citra, Simcoe, Mosaic
S-04: 90% | WB-06: 7% | T-58: 3%

Looks good! So would you describe it as Treehouse - ish? Is it dry? Also did you pitch the S-04: 90% | WB-06: 7% | T-58: 3% all at the same time?

 

[RevKev]

I never got bubblegum from TH but have many times from GRIMM and SingleCut

 

[melville]

I can't remember if its you or Marshall that is using the staggered pitching approach? I'd prefer to pitch everything at the same time (at least for the first try). I'm wondering if 70:15:15 might be more appropriate or even 60:30:10 (S-04:T-58:WB-06)? Not brewing until next weekend.

I did it all together.

 

[melville]

Looks good! So would you describe it as Treehouse - ish? Is it dry? Also did you pitch the S-04: 90% | WB-06: 7% | T-58: 3% all at the same time?

I don't think I'm tree house-y right now, I'm hoping I can get over there Saturday to get a fresh sense as to why.. It is dry, 1.011 if I remember correctly, but I could see with the right ratio and a similar level of hop saturation getting there. Pitched all at the same time.

 

[Brewindog]

Thanks Melville.

Scott Janish wrote an article talking about esters and fusel alcohols I found interesting. There's a chart towards the bottom and the effects different fermentation strategies that could help us.

http://scottjanish.com/esters-and-fusel-alcohols/

 

[isomerization]

I don't think I'm tree house-y right now, I'm hoping I can get over there Saturday to get a fresh sense as to why.. It is dry, 1.011 if I remember correctly, but I could see with the right ratio and a similar level of hop saturation getting there. Pitched all at the same time.

Its not carbonated yet right, so let's hope the CBC-1 natural route will produce dividends...

 

[crunkpirate]

So in order to get that bubble gum flavor balance we just need to match the ppm of isoamyl acetate to that of a TH beer. Piece of cake! /s

 

[TheHairyHop]

My two (unasked for) cents would be that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Lone Pine brewery in Portland ME makes a better mosaic neipa than Tree House, imo of course, and they certainly don't use the same yeast approach. Although we could uncork the yeast secret, we could still miss the mark as far as process goes

 

[melville]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1500738425.444280.jpg

Julius.

Probably no mosaic or very little.
A lot of things about this tastes familiar.
There's been a slight head on this all the way down
Small bubbles
Not a HUGE aroma
But a lot of flavor
If there's biscuit, it's vanilla biscuit
Not super columbusy (more citra dank than earth dank)
More sweet than dry

 

[isomerization]

View attachment 408259

Julius.

Probably no mosaic or very little.
A lot of things about this tastes familiar.
There's been a slight head on this all the way down
Small bubbles
Not a HUGE aroma
But a lot of flavor
If there's biscuit, it's vanilla biscuit
Not super columbusy (more citra dank than earth dank)
More sweet than dry

Is that the real deal or yours? I was always under the impression Julius was Citra/Amarillo with maybe some Columbus or Simcoe in the mix too...

 

[melville]

Is that the real deal or yours? I was always under the impression Julius was Citra/Amarillo with maybe some Columbus or Simcoe in the mix too...

Real deal. Also had a Green. Sweet finish. Definitely something in the finish that more than himts at what I assume is WB-06. Mouthfeel seems to largely hint on carbonation which at least on tap, is on the lighter side, really fine.

Bags of weyermann Munich II and carafoam liberally stocked.

Edit: Think I can make out Vienna malt too from weyermann.

 

[isomerization]

Real deal. Also had a Green. Sweet finish. Definitely something in the finish that more than himts at what I assume is WB-06. Mouthfeel seems to largely hint on carbonation which at least on tap, is on the lighter side, really fine.

Bags of weyermann Munich II and carafoam liberally stocked.

Edit: Think I can make out Vienna malt too from weyermann.

The carafoam makes sense, but the dark Munich, could they be using that for color and/or breadiness? Also, what about using just Vienna as the base malt?

 

[melville]

The carafoam makes sense, but the dark Munich, could they be using that for color and/or breadiness? Also, what about using just Vienna as the base malt?

Every malt visible was Weyermann.
The closest visible racks held Munich II in big totes. Then carafoam in totes. Further away, back by the cans was Weyermann Vienna sacks. There's considerably more behind that, but you can't see it, but it still looked like Weyermann brand malts.

I still think they use Rahr 2-row/Pale and carafoam/crystal (the malts I saw are on the opposite side of the brewery from where they mash, I'm sure there's more storage elsewhere), in most of their beers spiced with some combo of specialty malts.

SRM of Julius and Green (slightly lighter to my eye than Julius) doesn't allow for much Munich but both seemed slightly more complicated than just 2-row.

Didn't get bubblegum in either beer. Really tried to find it. But I do get that weird thing in the finish that I mentioned before, it was definitely there in both beers.

When I got home, took another taste of my (still carbing) beer. Similar finishing yeast taste and the bubbles.... Very interesting.

BSG on Munich II:
"It produces robust malt characteristics, including full body, deep amber color, and smooth mouthfeel. The flavor is strongly malty and the rich aroma has notes of caramel, honey, and bread."
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/weyermann-munich-dk-type2-25kg

BSG on Vienna:
"It produces full-bodied beers with golden color and smooth mouthfeel. The flavor is malty-sweet with gentle notes of honey, almond, and hazelnut"
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/weyermann-vienna-25-kg

 

[drelickj]

Brewing tomorrow and the plan is to try fermenting with only WB-06 and S-04 as many have said T58 had more of a spicy character. I know there have been a few batches made already but I am wondering if WB-06 for 48 hours first would be best or just co-pitch all at once. Personally, I was thinking of going with the staggered approach but any input from those who have already tried one of these strategies would help. Also, has anyone tried a batch without flaked adjuncts to see if it clears with these strains? I'm going to attempt my batch without them but I think I am changing too many variables at once from my usual NEIPAs. Very un-scientist like of me...

 

[couchsending]

Split a 5g batch into two separate 3gallon kegs on Friday AM. Half was kegged with super hopped wort and .6g CBC-1 as well as .6g of T-58. 2nd keg I added dextrose, same combo of yeast, but this one has dry hops (contained) in the keg. I wasn't overly excited about the beer I made with S-04 so I switched to 002 for this batch. No alternate yeasts during primary. Interested to see if the T-58 adds anything? The last batch I split between natural carb with CBC-1 and force carbing was considerably different. Naturally carbonated batch was much smoother, more rounded and had a distinct melon note that the force carbed beer did not.


Read something interesting in Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer" in regards to krausening.. "Introduction of 10-15% new beer at bottling produces a smoother beer with finer bubbles than other means of carbonation. It more completely bonds carbonic gas to the beer so that carbonationis less apparent. This is the only means by which a truly smooth beer can be brewed".

 

[TheHairyHop]

My neipa with a 93/7 ratio of 04 to 58 is not what I was looking for. It's very dry and not at all thick and creamy like the same recipe but with 1318. The one other difference is that I used comet in this recipe

 

[isomerization]

My neipa with a 93/7 ratio of 04 to 58 is not what I was looking for. It's very dry and not at all thick and creamy like the same recipe but with 1318. The one other difference is that I used comet in this recipe

Mash and fermentation temp? Seems to be a common issue with most everyone's batches, finishing too low. Although some of the others sounded like they had at least a finished product in the right direction.

Split a 5g batch into two separate 3gallon kegs on Friday AM. Half was kegged with super hopped wort and .6g CBC-1 as well as .6g of T-58. 2nd keg I added dextrose, same combo of yeast, but this one has dry hops (contained) in the keg. I wasn't overly excited about the beer I made with S-04 so I switched to 002 for this batch. No alternate yeasts during primary. Interested to see if the T-58 adds anything? The last batch I split between natural carb with CBC-1 and force carbing was considerably different. Naturally carbonated batch was much smoother, more rounded and had a distinct melon note that the force carbed beer did not.


Read something interesting in Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer" in regards to krausening.. "Introduction of 10-15% new beer at bottling produces a smoother beer with finer bubbles than other means of carbonation. It more completely bonds carbonic gas to the beer so that carbonationis less apparent. This is the only means by which a truly smooth beer can be brewed".

Im excited to try the CBC-1 conditioning approach as well, trying to figure out an easy way to not have to add dextrose though.

Brewing tomorrow and the plan is to try fermenting with only WB-06 and S-04 as many have said T58 had more of a spicy character. I know there have been a few batches made already but I am wondering if WB-06 for 48 hours first would be best or just co-pitch all at once. Personally, I was thinking of going with the staggered approach but any input from those who have already tried one of these strategies would help. Also, has anyone tried a batch without flaked adjuncts to see if it clears with these strains? I'm going to attempt my batch without them but I think I am changing too many variables at once from my usual NEIPAs. Very un-scientist like of me...

If you're wanting to try the staggered approach, I'd do it. I think the only other person who's tried it here is marshallb, so the more data the better. I haven't used T-58 yet, but my impression from others descriptions remind some more of a wit yeast than a standard Belgian strain. For your recipe I'd try to keep it as close to something you've done before so you have a benchmark of sorts, if possible.