Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[couchsending]

That’s a lot of carafoam! I wonder if the Carafoam contributes to the higher levels of potassium? I’ve never had a hoppy beer tested with 1200ppm potassium. Some dark beers yes.

Made a 1.040 “saison” with Sterling and Centennial. Saved some wort and added it to the yeast from the previous step. Going to ferment these a little cooler and not on a stir plate.

Still not convinced what’s labeled WB-06 is actually that. The other stuff seems about right so far.

 

[isomerization]

wrong thread, sorry!

 

[beervoid]

12 lbs Rahr 2 Row
2.5 lbs carafoam

1.068 OG

Thanks. I got a similar grainbill planned for an experiment to see if high % of carapils/foam contribute the same amount to body as do oat or wheat. Any comments on this?

 

[savylemons]

Thanks. I got a similar grainbill planned for an experiment to see if high % of carapils/foam contribute the same amount to body as do oat or wheat. Any comments on this?

It was never a HUGE body booster for me. This grain bill and the finished beer water report was from 2 years ago and I've moved away from such high % carafoam since then. I ditched it completely for awhile since I was able to achieve long lasting meringue-like head and sticky lacing using only base malt when I addressed other things in my process. The potassium correlation speculation is interesting though, that never occured to me at all that they could be related. Now I wish I had a finished beer report of an IPA without carafoam to compare....

I know Nate loves to tout his "simple grain bill of 2-row and dextrin/carafoam" for many of his IPA's, I just never saw much benefit to carafoam personally, but I guess it's possible it may be doing something other than it's intended purpose of increasing foam stability.

 

[beervoid]

I had an Equilibrium Fractal Koru Set triple ipa. The mouthfeel was fantastic. They state to use only 2-row.

 

[NJGeorge]

I had an Equilibrium Fractal Koru Set triple ipa. The mouthfeel was fantastic. They state to use only 2-row.

Supposedly they use RO water and go chloride heavy. Also I see a lot of their beers just list wheat and oats as a base.

 

[NJGeorge]

That’s a lot of carafoam! I wonder if the Carafoam contributes to the higher levels of potassium? I’ve never had a hoppy beer tested with 1200ppm potassium. Some dark beers yes.

Made a 1.040 “saison” with Sterling and Centennial. Saved some wort and added it to the yeast from the previous step. Going to ferment these a little cooler and not on a stir plate.

Still not convinced what’s labeled WB-06 is actually that. The other stuff seems about right so far.

What about trying a small brew with the labeled WB-06 starter and see how a beer would be with some hops? Maybe it will be good. If it smells good in a starter, why not? How’s the SO4 starter?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I haven’t had awesome results with carafoam either, but I like it more than carapils. I brewed Hoppy Thing by Nate recently and it had an amazing merengue like head and great mouthfeel with no high protein adjuncts or carafoam. Just 2 row, crystal 60, and honey malt. Used Brooklyn water which is pretty damn soft and treated my water with 5gm gypsum and 2.5 cacl. Surprisingly soft mouthfeel considering...good process and wort handling goes a long way

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Also plan on brewing my NEIPA this coming week once I get my Kolsch out of the fermenter. I'm think of testing S04 on its own to see how it compares to TH beers. I've never used it on its own. Out of curiosity, what would yall consider an underpitch of S04 in 5 gallons of 1.065 wort?

 

[couchsending]

So the next step up is done. Measured the gravities and pH of all 3. I left these in a ground level area in my house that’s around 62/63. No stir plate

OG 1.046 40ish IBUs Sterling Centennial

around 850ml of wort in each flask


“T-58”
- finished the fastest
- lowest gravity and pH
+ 1.008, 4.14ph
- definitely phenols but not strong
+ similar to Allagash’s yeast for White
- no “peppery” character
- the fast start is like T-58
- the low FG is not like T-58 typically
- I’d expect this one to finish the highest

“S04”
- 1.011
- 4.4 ph
- not 100% sure this is just S04
- this one took forever to get going
+ hence there maybe some wild yeast
- no “bready” character, not that tart
+ maybe because of 62* ambient??

“WB06”
- I would say this is not WB06
- highest FG at 1.0125
- pH 4.24
- no detectable phenols
- incredibly “bright” flavor
+ thought maybe the pH would be low
due to some “infection” but nope
Standard pH.

None of these results make me think what’s labeled as “wb06” is anything close to that which makes no sense. With what that PCR looks like I’d expect something that ferments lower and has phenols as just about everything genetically near to it is diastaticus and POF+ (Although wlp644 isn’t POF+??). Maybe the low temps have just slowed it down? The “starter” has cleared and the yeast has flocced

I am now tempted to brew something with what’s labeled as WB06 however I’ve got a bunch of other stuff planned at the moment. We’ll see.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Their beers ARE drastically different than most. They have an incredibly sophisticated brewery and obviously a talented staff. As long as SOP is followed it’s not that difficult.

I don’t think they’re doing anything that nuts other than not really force carbing their beers like everyone else does.

I don’t get much of the “alternate” yeast character in their beer to be honest. It smells like SO4 predominantly. Due to yeast needs for harvesting and repitching I find it hard to believe they’re mixing yeast from the get go. Even if you mix only small percentages in due to flocculation rates and other variables those percentages change really quickly. I’d be willing to bet they harvest the SO4 and then add dry hops and sugar plus other yeast and cap the tanks.

I never did, and I still don't. I think that they're just getting a lot of character from their hops that other people aren't. I've never opened a can of TH and said. "this smells like a damn hefe!" or whatever that blogger said.
I haven't been on HBT that much, but it's kind of interesting to see that there still isn't anything conclusive about the yeast strains.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I just brewed 5 gallons and I'm fermenting it with S04.

OG 1.071

2 row, carafoam, munich, touch of wheat.

Hopped with HBC 586 only.

Fermented with 1 pack of S04 pitched at 64 degrees, free rise to 66. The blow off hasnt had a tree house aroma like the yeast blend does. I'm excited to see what the flavor is like. Pretty sure 1 pack in 5 gallons of 1.071 is an underpitch which was mentioned in a previous post. Maybe a larger underpitch would have more of a difference. I dry hopped and capped my fermenter yesterday. I've never brewed an IPA with S04 on its own, I'm excited to see if I can pick up any TH similarities.

I also just read recently that S04 can have banana like aromas when stressed??? never heard that before. Would remind me of a hefe or belgian strain I suppose. Anyone hear of this?

 

[TBryerton]

I never did, and I still don't. I think that they're just getting a lot of character from their hops that other people aren't. I've never opened a can of TH and said. "this smells like a damn hefe!" or whatever that blogger said.
I haven't been on HBT that much, but it's kind of interesting to see that there still isn't anything conclusive about the yeast strains.

One thing I’ve been focusing on lately is process. Not just my own, but how different breweries can use the same recipe and produce drastically different products. The All Together recipe is a great representation of this. I’ve had about 6 different versions of this beer and all are noticeably different - none on the level of Other Half so far.

If we take two beers from the same brewery we can assume that for the most part, the majority of the process is the same. Point being, if you take a core TH IPA and drink it back to back with its bright counterpart it will give you a very good idea of what the house yeast contributes to the end product.

Yes, there are subtle difference between a beer like Green and Bright w/Galaxy, but drinking them together it becomes obvious that the difference in the beer that’s considered world class, and the beer that’s considered a run of the mill NEIPA is the esters. Once you get beyond those flavors they are extremely similar. So I’m not a believer that the reason TH beers are so good can be solely attributed to the hop flavors.

 

[TheHairyHop]

One thing I’ve been focusing on lately is process. Not just my own, but how different breweries can use the same recipe and produce drastically different products. The All Together recipe is a great representation of this. I’ve had about 6 different versions of this beer and all are noticeably different - none on the level of Other Half so far.

If we take two beers from the same brewery we can assume that for the most part, the majority of the process is the same. Point being, if you take a core TH IPA and drink it back to back with its bright counterpart it will give you a very good idea of what the house yeast contributes to the end product.

Yes, there are subtle difference between a beer like Green and Bright w/Galaxy, but drinking them together it becomes obvious that the difference in the beer that’s considered world class, and the beer that’s considered a run of the mill NEIPA is the esters. Once you get beyond those flavors they are extremely similar. So I’m not a believer that the reason TH beers are so good can be solely attributed to the hop flavors.

I guess that's where my palate differs. I don't think that TH beers are extremely similar. I find a distinct difference between every beer. It's a positive input cycle of perception. If the esters were a big deal, they would all taste the same to me, but they don't
EDIT: To clarify, I very much do think that esters play a role in a good beer. For sure. I just don't think that they're part of a significant and complex yeast blending process. The large difference in results from the Reddit analysis and the HBT analysis should be a red flag

 

[TBryerton]

I guess that's where my palate differs. I don't think that TH beers are extremely similar. I find a distinct difference between every beer. It's a positive input cycle of perception. If the esters were a big deal, they would all taste the same to me, but they don't
EDIT: To clarify, I very much do think that esters play a role in a good beer. For sure. I just don't think that they're part of a significant and complex yeast blending process. The large difference in results from the Reddit analysis and the HBT analysis should be a red flag

I’ve never once said all TH beers taste the same.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I’ve never once said all TH beers taste the same.

I read your statement about the two beers being extremely similar as such. It's not always easy to interpret a forum post exactly as intended.

 

[TBryerton]

I read your statement about the two beers being extremely similar as such. It's not always easy to interpret a forum post exactly as intended.

Agree 100%. But yes, I was saying those two specific beers are similar. If you take Bright w/Galaxy for example, we know they are using a very simple grain bill with a neutral yeast, presumably US05, with the intention of expressing the hop flavor. In this case Galaxy. If we look at Green I think it’s safe to assume that it is also a simple grain bill, and we know it’s focus was to express the flavor from Galaxy hops. They did end up mixing in a small % of American hops but I believe it’s still 80% Galaxy. When you drink side by side you can tell how close these two really are, but that core TH ‘flavor’ that exists in all their beer they describe using ‘house yeast’ is the difference in Green.

 

[couchsending]

Said screw it and gonna brew something with the isolate that was labeled WB-06.

I would say there’s no way it’s WB-06. I bumped it up to a 1.5L starter on a stir plate a few days ago. Gonna brew with it today. It smells incredibly clean and seems to flocculate well. Definitely doesn’t smell like SO4 at all either. I’m a little concerned about attenuation so planning on mashing quite low.

Rahr 2 Row
5% Carafoam
2% Belgian Aromatic

Co2 Extract for 22 IBUs at 60
Citra/Centennial @ 10 35 IBUs

No WP hops but

Hopback
3oz Idaho 7 Leaf + 1oz Columbus Leaf

Going to ferment on the cooler side to start, maybe 64 for first two days then let it rise to 68/70.

Plan is to dry hop at 55 for 4-5 days after a cold crash to remove yeast.

If the beer resembles something half way decent after fermentation DH will be mostly Simcoe with a bit of Centennial and a bit of Idaho 7. (Got some amazing Simcoe and Centennial recently that I really want to use).

 

[brewpharm Hill]

My batch with S04 doesn't really scream Tree House, I just kegged it last night. The sample was honestly underwhelming so I hit it with an ounce of hops in the keg. Once its carbed up and I pull a pour I'll update. It is also surprisingly clear.

OG 1.071
Rahr 2 row
10% carafoam
8% munich
2% wheat

All HBC 586 hops. Dry hopped on day 4 with 4oz at 1.018 SG.

 

[NJGeorge]

I also have an all s04 batch going that I’ll dry hop tomorrow. Depending on the gravity and smell taste, I might throw in some t-58. Well see.
Also, FWIW, Equilibrium mentioned that they use a “proprietary yeast blend” on IG in a comment.

 

[NJGeorge]

I’ve never really used s04 alone in a hoppy beer. I’ve always mixed in a little T-58, or s33 and even a little be256. Only a couple times I mixed in wb-06 and will never do that again, however, I never added it with the hops. My s04 batch is going to be a very nice beer, but not in any way treehouse yeast expression. I decided to just dry hop it and not add any yeast with the dry hop. The hydro sample tasted good and I don’t want to ruin a good batch of beer. It’s fruity but no TH esters. Not even bready for me and I used 50% pils for this batch. Their yeast throws out a lot Isoamyl acetate for me. I also have found that yeast and hop type mixture plays a big role in the aroma. The last time I used Voss with citra, Simcoe and Amarillo in a double ipa, it reminded me of haze a lot. Definity had that TH ester thing. Anyone else try anything new?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

some interesting reads on yeast blending techniques

https://www.sea-brew.com/post/co-fermentation-and-blending-yeast
https://www.whitelabs.com/beer/using-multiple-yeast-strains
http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...df/2014/A Guide To Blending Yeast Strains.pdf
my apologies if these were mentioned previously in this thread. I've read it all, but its been a long time running.

Some touch upon talk of pitching a yeast first for flavor and then pitching another yeast after for attenuation or more nuanced flavor contribution.

 

[couchsending]

Update: “WB-06” beer is still fermenting, albeit slowly now and I’m a little worried it’s not going to fully attenuate. First sample on day 2 was straight juicy fruit gum. I’ve never experienced that taste/aroma in fermenting beer. I know it’s been a prominent descriptor of TH beers aroma (or used to be before the production got even bigger). There are no phenols present that I can tell. That “juicy fruit” character has faded a bit and hops are starting to come through a bit more.

I’m wondering if this is some sort of POF- wine yeast. Based on how the PCR looks and what we know from the yeast genome study the likelihood of this being a wine or wine like yeast is quite high. Or higher than other yeasts. It’s definitely not WB-06, nor does it seem to be wlp644.

Anyone ever fermented a hoppy beer with 71B wine yeast? I’ve used K1v-1116 before but never 71B.

 

[beervoid]

Update: “WB-06” beer is still fermenting, albeit slowly now and I’m a little worried it’s not going to fully attenuate. First sample on day 2 was straight juicy fruit gum. I’ve never experienced that taste/aroma in fermenting beer. I know it’s been a prominent descriptor of TH beers aroma (or used to be before the production got even bigger). There are no phenols present that I can tell. That “juicy fruit” character has faded a bit and hops are starting to come through a bit more.

I’m wondering if this is some sort of POF- wine yeast. Based on how the PCR looks and what we know from the yeast genome study the likelihood of this being a wine or wine like yeast is quite high. Or higher than other yeasts. It’s definitely not WB-06, nor does it seem to be wlp644.

Anyone ever fermented a hoppy beer with 71B wine yeast? I’ve used K1v-1116 before but never 71B.

I've tried Lalvin 71B and Mangrove CY17 together with la1318 and conan. Can't say I got anything from it other then my beers where a bit more phenolic then normally and not in a good way.

 

[couchsending]

I've tried Lalvin 71B and Mangrove CY17 together with la1318 and conan. Can't say I got anything from it other then my beers where a bit more phenolic then normally and not in a good way.

Pretty sure 71B is POF- however

 

[beervoid]

Pretty sure 71B is POF- however

They both are I think but still I got this fruity thing I identified as "phenolic"ish... maybe bubblegum? not tropical or nice fruity. It wasn't bad but not what I was looking for.
I do however think you might be right that TH possibly uses wine yeast. I suspect it cause apart from being able to bio-transform and add fruity esters it can also improve body/mouthfeel. And this wine yeast experimentation has been on the radar for quiet a while in the brewing world.
This is an interesting podcast on it from 2008!
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post1888/

 

[TheHairyHop]

The comment section of that site raises a good point. If anyone could do analysis on a commercial beer that we know has only one strain how many yeasts would be found?

I have also been wondering what a 500 g brick of S-04 looks like plated out after 2 or 3 generations. Any contamination from the source will have expanded. My previous comments in this thread come from considering the results of the two analyses. Whenever I repeat an experiment at work, and I get two different results, I stop thinking about the results and start thinking about the source of the data

 

[isomerization]

I have also been wondering what a 500 g brick of S-04 looks like plated out after 2 or 3 generations. Any contamination from the source will have expanded. My previous comments in this thread come from considering the results of the two analyses. Whenever I repeat an experiment at work, and I get two different results, I stop thinking about the results and start thinking about the source of the data

You may have just been speaking generically or about the differences between the reddit thread and this one, but 3-5 different TH cans were tested. Always had the same profiles popping up.

@Clyde McCoy said he was going to pick up the torch, would be interesting to screen something like Bells 2 Hearted.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

You may have just been speaking generically or about the differences between the reddit thread and this one, but 3-5 different TH cans were tested. Always had the same profiles popping up.

@Clyde McCoy said he was going to pick up the torch, would be interesting to screen something like Bells 2 Hearted.

Ha, I streaked out US-05, S-04, K-97, S-33, WB-06, and T-58 the other day. Maybe I'll do the PCR this week. Surely more important than my real work

 

[NJGeorge]

Here’s a pic of my S04 batch. Dry hopped with mosaic, Vic and Motueka hops. Pilsner/pale wheat with a touch of honey malt. Reminds me Eureka a bit. Maybe they blend the wine yeast with an English type yeast?