Isn't this impossible? A Nancy Brew mystery

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whovous

Waterloo Sunset
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So, I decided to make a small change in my process, and I am at a complete loss to explain what happened. I do eBIAB with a continuously recirculating mash, a pourover sparge after pulling the bag and a recirculating boil in the original kettle. All hops are pitched commando both in the boil and in the 170F whirlpool. No filters anywhere in the process other than the bag. My Chugger pump is plenty powerful and I've never had a problem with hops clogging my valve or my plate chiller.

Still, I transfer an awful lot of hop matter to the fermenter, so I decided to put an empty brewing bag in the kettle before the boil and before pitching any hops. I got a lot of strange noises, hissing and otherwise, and when I investigated the bag was billowing strangely and some of the wort was migrating up the side of the bag and out of the kettle, so I decided to complete the boil without the recirculating lid. After sixty minutes I chilled to 170F, pitched about 1.5oz of cryo-hops, and put the lid back on for a whirlpool with my PID set to hold the temp at 170F.

More hissing and other strange noises from the kettle, but nevertheless I persisted. After 20 minutes, I decided it was time to remove the bag, chill, and transfer to the fermenter. This is where things got weird. When I lifted the bag, almost all the wort came with it! OK, I thought, I will wait and let it drain slowly through the very fine mesh, but virtually nothing happened. The brew pretty much stayed in the bag! I wound up sticking a knife through the bag to let it drain. A fair portion of the hop matter drained back into the brew-kettle with it, but so it goes.

How does this make any sense at all? I investigated the empty bag further after transferring the wort to the fermenter. Cleaning the bag made no difference. Water would not flow through the bag anywhere other than the knife hole. Even weirder, when I turned the bag inside-out, with the seams on the outside, water flowed through the bag just fine. A one way bag?

I have two of these bags and I have used the other one to mash grain for many brews with no issues. What made the second bag go rogue like this?

A couple of asides with the benefit of thinking this over a bit. I am guessing that the strange nolses originated from the pump cavitating. The Chugger is a pretty tough beast and I don't seem to have caused any permanent harm to the pump. The hissing was probably wort hitting the heating element. I think the element is OK because it is not discolored following the ordeal, but I am not really sure about that.

Has anyone else had an experience like this? How can a bag flow in only one direction?
 
Still, I transfer an awful lot of hop matter to the fermenter, so I decided to put an empty brewing bag in the kettle before the boil and before pitching any hops. I got a lot of strange noises, hissing and otherwise, and when I investigated the bag was billowing strangely and some of the wort was migrating up the side of the bag and out of the kettle, so I decided to complete the boil without the recirculating lid. After sixty minutes I chilled to 170F, pitched about 1.5oz of cryo-hops, and put the lid back on for a whirlpool with my PID set to hold the temp at 170F.

Your hops you used had a lot of fine particles, not quite fine enough to fit through the pores of the bag but enough to completely clog them. When you tried to put water through in the original direction the pores were still plugged. Reversing the flow direction would float a lot of the particles back out but not all of them. That bag should never be used again.

Had you not been recirculating the bag would have stopped the hops from getting into the fermenter and the bag could then have been rinsed out and reused.
 
So, I decided to make a small change in my process, and I am at a complete loss to explain what happened. I do eBIAB with a continuously recirculating mash, a pourover sparge after pulling the bag and a recirculating boil in the original kettle. All hops are pitched commando both in the boil and in the 170F whirlpool. No filters anywhere in the process other than the bag. My Chugger pump is plenty powerful and I've never had a problem with hops clogging my valve or my plate chiller.

Still, I transfer an awful lot of hop matter to the fermenter, so I decided to put an empty brewing bag in the kettle before the boil and before pitching any hops. I got a lot of strange noises, hissing and otherwise, and when I investigated the bag was billowing strangely and some of the wort was migrating up the side of the bag and out of the kettle, so I decided to complete the boil without the recirculating lid. After sixty minutes I chilled to 170F, pitched about 1.5oz of cryo-hops, and put the lid back on for a whirlpool with my PID set to hold the temp at 170F.

More hissing and other strange noises from the kettle, but nevertheless I persisted. After 20 minutes, I decided it was time to remove the bag, chill, and transfer to the fermenter. This is where things got weird. When I lifted the bag, almost all the wort came with it! OK, I thought, I will wait and let it drain slowly through the very fine mesh, but virtually nothing happened. The brew pretty much stayed in the bag! I wound up sticking a knife through the bag to let it drain. A fair portion of the hop matter drained back into the brew-kettle with it, but so it goes.

How does this make any sense at all? I investigated the empty bag further after transferring the wort to the fermenter. Cleaning the bag made no difference. Water would not flow through the bag anywhere other than the knife hole. Even weirder, when I turned the bag inside-out, with the seams on the outside, water flowed through the bag just fine. A one way bag?

I have two of these bags and I have used the other one to mash grain for many brews with no issues. What made the second bag go rogue like this?

A couple of asides with the benefit of thinking this over a bit. I am guessing that the strange nolses originated from the pump cavitating. The Chugger is a pretty tough beast and I don't seem to have caused any permanent harm to the pump. The hissing was probably wort hitting the heating element. I think the element is OK because it is not discolored following the ordeal, but I am not really sure about that.

Has anyone else had an experience like this? How can a bag flow in only one direction?
T45 or cryo pellets remove most of the large hop material so the material left is very fine. I believe that they coated the inside of your hop bag and that’s why it wouldn’t drain well. Once you poked the hole, liquid will take the path of least resistance, that’s why it didn’t drain anywhere else and went directly to the hole.
 
I have already pitched the bag so I cannot experiment further, but my recollection was that I tried running water through the relatively "clean" top part of the bag and it would not flow there, either. Also, even after I ran the water in reverse, I could not get water to run in the "original" direction. Is that consistent with the idea that reversing the bag cleared the fine particles?

I can see a lot of arguments for not recirculating, but I really like the idea of recirculating as a different form of whirlpooling. My attempts at whirlpooling the old-fashioned way in this kettle have not been very successful. I guess I can mark this particular method of recirculating down as a failure.
 
So, I decided to make a small change in my process, and I am at a complete loss to explain what happened. I do eBIAB with a continuously recirculating mash, a pourover sparge after pulling the bag and a recirculating boil in the original kettle. All hops are pitched commando both in the boil and in the 170F whirlpool. No filters anywhere in the process other than the bag. My Chugger pump is plenty powerful and I've never had a problem with hops clogging my valve or my plate chiller.

Still, I transfer an awful lot of hop matter to the fermenter, so I decided to put an empty brewing bag in the kettle before the boil and before pitching any hops. I got a lot of strange noises, hissing and otherwise, and when I investigated the bag was billowing strangely and some of the wort was migrating up the side of the bag and out of the kettle, so I decided to complete the boil without the recirculating lid. After sixty minutes I chilled to 170F, pitched about 1.5oz of cryo-hops, and put the lid back on for a whirlpool with my PID set to hold the temp at 170F.

More hissing and other strange noises from the kettle, but nevertheless I persisted. After 20 minutes, I decided it was time to remove the bag, chill, and transfer to the fermenter. This is where things got weird. When I lifted the bag, almost all the wort came with it! OK, I thought, I will wait and let it drain slowly through the very fine mesh, but virtually nothing happened. The brew pretty much stayed in the bag! I wound up sticking a knife through the bag to let it drain. A fair portion of the hop matter drained back into the brew-kettle with it, but so it goes.

How does this make any sense at all? I investigated the empty bag further after transferring the wort to the fermenter. Cleaning the bag made no difference. Water would not flow through the bag anywhere other than the knife hole. Even weirder, when I turned the bag inside-out, with the seams on the outside, water flowed through the bag just fine. A one way bag?

I have two of these bags and I have used the other one to mash grain for many brews with no issues. What made the second bag go rogue like this?

A couple of asides with the benefit of thinking this over a bit. I am guessing that the strange nolses originated from the pump cavitating. The Chugger is a pretty tough beast and I don't seem to have caused any permanent harm to the pump. The hissing was probably wort hitting the heating element. I think the element is OK because it is not discolored following the ordeal, but I am not really sure about that.

Has anyone else had an experience like this? How can a bag flow in only one direction?

I don't know what the problem was...most likely material clogging the bag somehow.

I BIAB and don't use any filters during the boil. I use whirlfloc, a healthy whirlpool for chilling fast, cut the whirlpool once done chilling, and then let the trub settle for at least an hour before transferring to a fermentation vessel....transfer slow....and I get clear wort into the fermentor.
 
I may try your method next time. I tend to obsess on getting the last ounce of wort into the TV. I don't need to do that if I am just going to wind up discarding those ounces anyway.
 
Hop matter may have clogged the bag, but I find the protein laden trub gunk to be an extraordinary filter jammer.

Like trusting to filter egg drop soup, not gonna happen!
 
I guess it must have been hop matter, but I am still having trouble wrapping my head around the one-way nature of the blockage. It would seem that if water ran through from the opposite side it would take the blockage with it. Still, I do not intend to repeat the experiment to make sure it can happen again!
 
Hop bags do appear to be mesh versus brew bags which are much finer, what happened to you is probably the reason why this is so.
 
Doubtless that is why Wilserbrewer sells two kinds of bags. All I was thinking about was getting something big enough to reach the full diameter of my recirculating kettle. Next time I will try to think a little bit more!
 

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