Today I did my 4th BIAB. My first attempt was a learning experience and my second and third times I got better efficiencies and was happier with the results. Today I did Adventures in Homebrewing's Moose Drool clone as I wanted a nice brown ale for football season. The recipe has about 10 pounds of grain and uses 3.75 ounces of hops. I used this calculator, which I think is a good one: http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc/ I started with 5.5 gallons of water and dunk sparged with another 2 to get to 6 pre-boil gallons. Soon after, I did the iodine conversion test, which passed. I then took a pre-boil gravity sample. It was not at 60 degrees - it was luke warm (didn't want to wait any longer). I'm guessing it was around 85 degrees, so I'm sure the hydrometer reading was a little off, but it could not have been THIS OFF - the hydrometer read 1.012! I mean, huh? How can I be at a target FG for pre-boil? I did pre-purchase an extra pound of DME because I thought I might be a little short, but surely did not expect this. Thankfully, the homebrew store is mere minutes away, so while my brew partner stayed behind, I hit up the brew store for 3 more pounds of DME. Turns out now, after cooling the wort, my OG was 1.070! So, I'm guessing that my pre-boil gravity sample was GREATLY DILUTED?! The guy at the homebrew store said sugars can fall to the bottom. So, if I added a total of 4 pounds of DME and ended with an OG of 1.070, what do you guys think my actual pre-boil gravity was? I mashed around 154 for an hour and added PH stabilizer as well. The cooled wort sample looked, tasted and smelled great, but I was hoping for an all-grain beer - not a partial mash, but as long as it turns out good, that's all that matters.
Is this even possible?!
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No sugars in solution do not fall to the bottom. With BIAB, once you pull the bag you have a homogeous wort with sugars, salts and proteins dissolved in water. Any suspended particles will settle out and will not affect a gravity reading unless the hydrometer's shoulder is covered them. Sugars in solution won't stratify.
Cooling a sample to the hydrometer's calibration point would likely have prevented your impromtu trip to the LHBS. I'm guessing you've realized that though.
Total junk. Worthless and potentially detrimental to the beer. Chuck it out. I did afetr about 4 batches (right where your at). I think there should be a support group for folks like us who've used it as beginners.
Don't take my word for it. Go to brewscience forum or the all grain forum. It's discussed as a common error in the water sticky in th all-grain section. A thread written by someone who together with John Palmer literally wrote the book on water.
From bru'n water website
SPECIAL NOTE: Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is indicated by its manufacturer to "lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water". Evidence by homebrewers indicates that this product does not produce a mash pH in the preferred room-temperature range of 5.3 to 5.5. That evidence shows this product does produce some pH moderation in waters with high Residual Alkalinity. However, the mash pH tends to center around 5.8 (room-temperature measurement). While 5.8 pH is acceptable, it is at the upper end of the desirable mashing range. The evidence also shows that in waters with low Residual Alkalinity, this product shows little effect on mash pH. Since Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is a compound with high sodium content, its use will elevate the sodium concentration in the brewing water. High sodium content can be undesirable from a taste standpoint in beer. Proper alkalinity control of mashing and sparging water may produce more acceptable brewing results for most brewers than with the use of 5.2 Stabilizer. To add emphasis to difficulty in using this product, the following conversation posted on Homebrew Talk between noted brewing water expert, AJ DeLange and the chemist from Five Star Chemical regarding their 5.2 Stabilizer product. "Tipped a few last night with the chemist who designed this product and was able to confirm that it is indeed a mix of phosphates (mono and di basic) that accounts for the presence of the malt phosphate. This is something I have long suspected and am pleased to have finally confirmed. Good manners prevented me from pressing him on it's efficacy and suitability relative to the statement on the label. But his comments on it were basically that most brewers shouldn't use it/need it and that it was put together for a particular brewery that had variable source water and no desire to make any effort to track that variability."
It was probably much warmer. well over 120F would mean complete inaccurate data. You were judging by how the plastic measuring cylinder felt?
There is no rush on the reading.
Take your sample, run the container under the cold tap and stick it in the fridge. When it's cooled even close to 60F or 68F depending on the hydrometer measure, you will get usable correctable data. I'm boiling by the time I get my preboil reading cooled to 60F and measure.
Trust your methods. Unless you're planning corrective DME additions there is no rush. Cooling in a metal bowl in an ice bath would be fast. Or a refractometer would be a speedy alternative.
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when you get to step 7 you will humbly ask your higher power to remove any traces of 5.2 from your brew equipment
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do you test at all during the mash - or wait until whatever clock you are using says " should be done"?
jason.mundy
BIAB Purist
These are the things that I do to speed up Hydrometer sample readings:
Collect 8oz of wort in a SS bowl. I then set that bowl in a larger bowl with small amount of ice and water. I stir wort as I move the bowls... trying to chill that wort down quickly. If you can stir with your finger, you'll know when it gets cold.
Pour this off into a cylinder and test with a temperature correcting hydrometer. Have a thermometer in your hydrometer is a time saver.
DO NOT PUT YOUR TEMPERATURE CORRECTING HYDROMETER IN TOO HOT OF WORT. THE TEMPERATURE FLUID MAY NOT DROP DOWN AGAIN... EVER.
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Well, my efficiency was better (for whatever reason) the first time I used the PH stabilizer - maybe it was better because of it, maybe not, but the first time I used it, I had a higher OG and was closer to the target OG than the times I did not use it.
I will make some water and guesstimate it as close to a temperature as I remember the pre-boil sample being. I will then take that temp - maybe it simply was WAY OFF, but it did taste VERY WATERY and all my other worts have had a lot more sweetness to them, so I feared there was not ample sugar extraction, even though the iodine test showed conversion.
I thought the point of the pre-boil gravity sample would be to know (like I learned today) if there is a really low reading THEN YOU CAN ADD DME/OTHER FERMENTABLES to make up for the loss. I guess if you're boiling by the time you make your reading, you can always add more DME mid-boil (as I did today). So, I guess I should just cool that sample quicker and move on. I take my iodine test after an hour of mashing.
I don't really want to spend the $ on a refractometer, though it would save time, obviously.
Thanks all for the feedback - it was a learning experience, and that's what this is all about...
I will make some water and guesstimate it as close to a temperature as I remember the pre-boil sample being. I will then take that temp - maybe it simply was WAY OFF, but it did taste VERY WATERY and all my other worts have had a lot more sweetness to them, so I feared there was not ample sugar extraction, even though the iodine test showed conversion.
I thought the point of the pre-boil gravity sample would be to know (like I learned today) if there is a really low reading THEN YOU CAN ADD DME/OTHER FERMENTABLES to make up for the loss. I guess if you're boiling by the time you make your reading, you can always add more DME mid-boil (as I did today). So, I guess I should just cool that sample quicker and move on. I take my iodine test after an hour of mashing.
I don't really want to spend the $ on a refractometer, though it would save time, obviously.
Thanks all for the feedback - it was a learning experience, and that's what this is all about...
An iodine test is useful only to a point. It will test for starch in th ewort but wont tell you if starches are still locked in the grains.
You need to grind up a small sample of grain and wort if you really want to check for starches.
I taste the preboil sample and it ,as you said should taste very sweet. Hence its name sweet-wort.
1.012 reading even in hot wort does sound ridiculously low and could point to either a poor crush or mash temps excessivly hot with what you have described.
Without knowing an accurate preboil gravity and volume it is hard to identify the problem. Either way, with the corrective DME added you should have a tasty beverage on your hands. At 1.070, one with a bit of a kick.
The metal bowl is a great idea for cooling the sample fast. You can cool it in the freezer before you brew or during the mash.
You need to grind up a small sample of grain and wort if you really want to check for starches.
I taste the preboil sample and it ,as you said should taste very sweet. Hence its name sweet-wort.
1.012 reading even in hot wort does sound ridiculously low and could point to either a poor crush or mash temps excessivly hot with what you have described.
Without knowing an accurate preboil gravity and volume it is hard to identify the problem. Either way, with the corrective DME added you should have a tasty beverage on your hands. At 1.070, one with a bit of a kick.
The metal bowl is a great idea for cooling the sample fast. You can cool it in the freezer before you brew or during the mash.
On the refractometer. I wouldn't buy one (again) . I got one. Never use it anymore.
Yeah, I was debating whether or not to go to the store and add the DME, but after tasting the cooled sample, I went from - is this even worth adding yeast to, to I am very anxious to see where this ends up 2 months from now.
No matter how much you "think" you screwed up it's always worth throwing the yeast in! because you never know.
Some of the best beers I've made have resulted from one mistake or another.
I like to tell beginners if some monks 500 years ago could make beer with river water, open fermenters and wood fires you too can make good beer!!!
Brew on!!
Some of the best beers I've made have resulted from one mistake or another.
I like to tell beginners if some monks 500 years ago could make beer with river water, open fermenters and wood fires you too can make good beer!!!
Brew on!!
Gavin, This is one of the few things that we disagree on. I use my refractometer for everything, and can't remember when I last used a hydrometer. Like many things in brewing, personal preference is the deciding factor.
Brew on
You can send your poor, neglected, collecting dust refractometer to me. I could use another. One to keep in the pantry for wine and another in the garage for beer
pricelessbrewing
Brewer's Friend Software Manager
Sorry gavin, I'm with doug on this one! Love my refractometer.
Gavin, This is one of the few things that we disagree on. I use my refractometer for everything, and can't remember when I last used a hydrometer. Like many things in brewing, personal preference is the deciding factor.
Brew on
I only use Hydrometer for FG. The rest of my measurements are w/the refractometer and you don't need to wait for it to cool. One drop and bingo you have your answer. :rockin:
Yeah, I could see getting one someday. Since I don't really have the space to keg, it's pretty much the only piece of equipment I don't have that I feel I could use. I'm sure it would come in handy at times.
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I'll be the lone one to back this up. My refractometer collects dust along with some other things (like my auto siphon) that have huge followings on HBT.
jason.mundy
BIAB Purist
I use a narrow range hydrometer (8°P to 15°P) to measure OG. It has a thermometer in the bulb that gives me +/- corrections for the SG reading. It was about $35. But I trust it more than my reflectometer.
I'll still pull the reflectometer out and see if the numbers are close... but I've seen the numbers drift on the reflectomer over 5 minutes of sitting.
That's funny. My autosyphon is similarly unused and dusty.
william_shakes_beer
Well-Known Member
You need to be sure you refractometer is calibrated for beer. They make them for many liquids, including urine!!! ( no mexican beer jokes, that would just be too non PC)
Komodo
Well-Known Member
This. x10
Don't get me wrong I'm not refractometer bashing, I just prefer the accuracy of narrow range hydrometers.
I think refractometers are very useful especially if you do smaller batch sizes where a sample or two will mean a lost beer.
I don't like relying on an algorithm's accuracy for data once alcohol is present. Post ferment, a hydrometer is your only man
Correct me if I'm wrong @c-rider but you normally do ~1.5 to 2 gallon batches. Really enjoyed your youtube vids BTW.
Komodo
Well-Known Member
Anything post pitch is a hydrometer, and I don't draw off but do a direct measure in the bucket (huge benefit of using buckets). I use the refractometer on brew day and find it indispensable, but end the brew day with a room / pitch temp hydro reading.
About 1.026 to 1.031 depending on your final volume or boil off rate.
[Edit]
Looking at the Bucksnort Brown recipe I see it calls for a 5.25 gallon batch size. Assuming you were aiming for a 5.25 gallons postboil per recipe, and because you collected 6 gallons preboil, I assume your boil off rate is 0.75 g/hr? And after adding the extra extract you wound up with a final volume of ~5.5 gallons? If that's the case I figure you had a preboil gravity of about 1.034 before boiling and adding the 4 pounds of extract... that was a fun exercise.
pricelessbrewing
Brewer's Friend Software Manager
I was doubtful as well at first, but I totally trust it now. I did about 6 batches where I carefully measured my OG and FG with both hydrometer and refractometer. Using the refractometer correction formula I got within .0005 of the hydrometer, which is probably less than the measurement error when using your hydrometer. Unless you have a specific hydrometer for measuring FG.
I do
I used to use it exclusively. I started using the hydrometer more and more for photos and the like. After a while just stuck with hydrometers.
Result: Dusty refractometer
The_Bishop
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I picked up a Milwaukee electronic one on sale. It's awesome. Dead on readings, sample size of 1 ml is very easy to cool right in the sample dropper. Now my hydrometer collects dust, until I need a final gravity reading.
I have a final gravity hydrometer. When I checked it against distilled water it read 2 points off. Make sure you check them!
YUP small 2 gallon batches and as you stated I can't afford large test samples. So I don't check FG for at least 3 weeks when I use the hydrometer.
Komodo
Well-Known Member
Don't get me wrong either, I broke my hydrometer on brewday and flipped out. I felt naked and ran out to buy a new one the next day.
Though, the flexibility of refractometer readings on brewday is spectacular. I take readings during sparge, measuring whats in the collection buckets, during boil to see how its progressing, post boil etc etc. When its chilled and pitched, its all hydrometer.
