Is there any benefit to keeping the beer in the fermenter after its done fermenting?

[demens]

I'm wondering if maybe i should keep all my 1st time brew questions in 1 thread, hopefully the new ones are not annoying anyone.

I'm making a very simple Amber Ale recipe, that calls for 1 week in the primary, 1 week in secondary before bottling.

Now i've seen many post and many people talk about how they dont use the secondary and keep their beer in the primary for 3 weeks which is what i was recommended.

I'm at day 8 now with the beer still in the primary, figured i'll do 2 weeks primary, 1 week secondary.

The reason is because i though my gravity is still too high and its not ready to go to secondary yet. But i might be wrong, its been steady for 4 days now and its right at the MAX number of where it should be, meaning it could be lower but its not AS high as i thought.

So my question is this. If the gravity is steady, that means fermentation is DONE, right? So whats the point in keeping the beer in the bucket if its done fermenting? I've read people saying "let the yeast settle and clean up", does that process take place AFTER fermentation is done (steady gravity), or it cleans up as it goes along at the end of fermentation when gravity is still slowly getting lower?

 

[HItransplant]

As you've said, there are tons and tons of threads on here about this issue. The only absolutely positively 100% for sure answer on this is, that you will NOT get a consensus.

so my first piece of advise: read more .. you can probably find answers to your questions that have already been written.

But, since you asked the question..
Generally speaking, (based on my research on this forum and elsewhere about this issue) it seems that for a "simple amber ale recipe," you could just let it sit in primary for the duration.

That said, if you are going to dry hop or batch age, even the anti-secondarists will advocate for a secondary. But again, you probably werent planning on batch aging a "simple amber ale."

Personally, I like to secondary, so Ill probably always secondary...
Also, the last time I brewed (my first AG batch), I had a steady 1020 reading after 2-3 weeks of primary (taken 2x over 3 or 4 days). After 2 weeks in secondary, FG was 1013. So I think that there are times that you might squeeze a few more points out of the disturbance caused by racking to 2ndary.


clear as mud?

 

[snipper_cr]

Remember, fermentation doesn't stop when the bubbles do. The yeasties are still working away and cleaning up after themselves to help make the beer taste better.

If you are set on the secondary fermentation process, let it sit for another week then transfer, but as youve seen most people now just recommend a nice long primary. The only real reason I rack is to put my beer into a BB carboy which is only 5 gallons so it doesnt really support 5 gallon fermenting. This frees up the bucket fermenter.

Think of the yeasts as building a house. During the "visible" portion, there is a lot of activity and work going on at the house - putting the structure up, paving the driveway, etc. However, once the frame is up, isn't there still a lot of work to be done? Run cable/phone lines, paint the walls, carpet the floor, move in furniture. Again, you dont see this stuff from the outside, but what if you just fired everyone after you saw the outside of the house completed?

 

[demens]

I think you guys are misunderstanding the question.


I'm not asking whether to 2ndary or not to, i'm asking if there is any point in keeping the beer in the fermerter once its done fermenting.

I'm pretty set on keeping it 14 days primary, 7 2ndary I just dont know whether its actually making any difference if i did 7 days in each. Wanna be sure that i'm not just wasting time ( a full week). As its my 1st brew, i think you guys can understand the impatience, especially since there is another 4 weeks to go after bottling.

 

[specialkaye]

I think you guys are misunderstanding the question.

Um, I think they hit it right on the head.
Perhaps you're misunderstanding the answers....

Plain language: Yes, there are benefits to leaving your beer on the yeast or in the primary fermenter after actual fermentation is done. And, the airlock DOES NOT tell you when fermentation is done. The airlock only vents EXCESS gas. If there is no excess CO2, then the airlock will not bubble even though fermentation activity is still taking place. The ONLY way to tell if fermentation is actually done is with a hydrometer. Plus, every time you open the fermenter, you're releasing any excess CO2 causing any type of pressure that would bubble an airlock. If you're using a bucket, picking it up, grabbing the handle, touching the top, can all be enough pressure to vent a bit of excess CO2 and reduce internal pressure, again, making it so the airlock will not bubble until the yeast has had time to excrete more CO2. But, by this time, they're slowing down because their is not as much sugar so it takes even longer to reach the excess CO2 level that will bubble.

During fermentation the yeast create byproducts. (use the search to see what they are) The extra time with out a high oxygen environment MAKE the yeast clean up those byproducts, giving you better tasting beer. And, that's probably what you're after: better tasting beer. That's what we're all after.

Some of the best, most active, AND MOST COPIED, brewers recommend leaving your beer in the primary, untouched, for at least 3 weeks. But, I see this was already recommended to you. After those 3 weeks, bottle it, and if your house is around 70f, wait UP TO 3 more weeks for a good carbonation level. But, you might get a decent carb'd beer within the first week.

Now, if you wait a bit, someone else will chime in with a totally different answer about what worked for them. And that's fine. If they make a beer they're happy with, all the more power too them and pour me one.

(Hey, you "older" guys, was that being a EAC? If it was, I apologize, up to a point.)

 

[JonK331]

As you've said, there are tons and tons of threads on here about this issue. The only absolutely positively 100% for sure answer on this is, that you will NOT get a consensus.

so my first piece of advise: read more .. you can probably find answers to your questions that have already been written.

But, since you asked the question..
Generally speaking, (based on my research on this forum and elsewhere about this issue) it seems that for a "simple amber ale recipe," you could just let it sit in primary for the duration.

That said, if you are going to dry hop or batch age, even the anti-secondarists will advocate for a secondary. But again, you probably werent planning on batch aging a "simple amber ale."

Personally, I like to secondary, so Ill probably always secondary...
Also, the last time I brewed (my first AG batch), I had a steady 1020 reading after 2-3 weeks of primary (taken 2x over 3 or 4 days). After 2 weeks in secondary, FG was 1013. So I think that there are times that you might squeeze a few more points out of the disturbance caused by racking to 2ndary.


clear as mud?

Here's a concensus: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

See the quote Revvy posted towards the end. John Palmer, Jamil Zainasheff, White Labs, and Wyeast are all the concensus I need.

 

[JonK331]

Um, I think they hit it right on the head.
Perhaps you're misunderstanding the answers....

Plain language: Yes, there are benefits to leaving your beer on the yeast or in the primary fermenter after actual fermentation is done. And, the airlock DOES NOT tell you when fermentation is done. The airlock only vents EXCESS gas. If there is no excess CO2, then the airlock will not bubble even though fermentation activity is still taking place. The ONLY way to tell if fermentation is actually done is with a hydrometer. Plus, every time you open the fermenter, you're releasing any excess CO2 causing any type of pressure that would bubble an airlock. If you're using a bucket, picking it up, grabbing the handle, touching the top, can all be enough pressure to vent a bit of excess CO2 and reduce internal pressure, again, making it so the airlock will not bubble until the yeast has had time to excrete more CO2. But, by this time, they're slowing down because their is not as much sugar so it takes even longer to reach the excess CO2 level that will bubble.

During fermentation the yeast create byproducts. (use the search to see what they are) The extra time with out a high oxygen environment MAKE the yeast clean up those byproducts, giving you better tasting beer. And, that's probably what you're after: better tasting beer. That's what we're all after.

Some of the best, most active, AND MOST COPIED, brewers recommend leaving your beer in the primary, untouched, for at least 3 weeks. But, I see this was already recommended to you. After those 3 weeks, bottle it, and if your house is around 70f, wait UP TO 3 more weeks for a good carbonation level. But, you might get a decent carb'd beer within the first week.

Now, if you wait a bit, someone else will chime in with a totally different answer about what worked for them. And that's fine. If they make a beer they're happy with, all the more power too them and pour me one.

(Hey, you "older" guys, was that being a EAC? If it was, I apologize, up to a point.)

+1

Also, racking to secondary increases chances of infection, oxidation, and staling. Just leave the damn beer in the primary for AT LEAST three weeks and bottle the stuff. You won't regret it. If you need something beer related to do, either brew another batch or drink.

 

[Yooper]

I'm pretty set on keeping it 14 days primary, 7 2ndary I just dont know whether its actually making any difference if i did 7 days in each. Wanna be sure that i'm not just wasting time ( a full week). As its my 1st brew, i think you guys can understand the impatience, especially since there is another 4 weeks to go after bottling.

If you're set, why ask? That doesn't make sense to me. If you want advice, we're always happy to give it! But to preface your question with, "I don't care what anybody says, I'm going to......what do you think?" is kind of silly.

The beer will be three weeks old when it's three weeks old, whether it's in primary, secondary, tertiary, bottled, etc. Three weeks is three weeks. You can move it to the carboy if you want after a week. Or two. Or not at all. A secondary is really not the correct term- since fermentation is over before it's moved. In pro breweries, it's called the "bright tank"- that's a clearing vessel that the beer might stay in to clear and condition. You can call it a secondary, but it's not- it's a clearing vessel since no secondary fermentation is taking place like with wine. It'll clear just fine in the fermenter, without being moved but some people chose to move it to the clearing vessel after active fermentation is over.

Do it. Or don't do it. It's your beer. But you're wasting our time typing out answers if you've already made up your mind. Waste your own time, and do a search for all the threads already on here. Some great search terms: benefit of a longer primary; secondary fermentation; racking to secondary; diacetyl; yeast activity after fermentation.

 

[D0ug]

+1 for leaving in the primary, but I would like to point out to those accusing the OP of being a bubble counter that he did say his hydro reading has been stable for 4 days.

 

[demens]

Jeeez guys. I appreciate the answers but you keep repeating things that i did not ask about.

I was not asking about Air Locks and i was not asking about whether to use the secondary or not. I was asking whether there is any point to keep the beer in the fermeneter (DOESN"T MATTER WHICH ONE) after the gravity is consistent (NOT AIR LOCK BUBBLES).

Yes i get that the Yeast cleans up after itself which results in better beer and that MIGHT be a benefit, but like it says in the OP

does that process take place AFTER fermentation is done (steady gravity), or it cleans up as it goes along at the end of fermentation when gravity is still slowly getting lower?

In other words, are there any indications that Yeast is cleaning up after itself or doing anything at all?

I already said that i will wait out the 3 weeks you dont have to keep repeating that i should wait 3 weeks and noone uses the secondary, i get it.

 

[Yooper]

In other words, are there any indications that Yeast is cleaning up after itself or doing anything at all?

I already said that i will wait out the 3 weeks you dont have to keep repeating that i should wait 3 weeks and noone uses the secondary, i get it.

What indications are you looking for? The flavor profile does change- diacteyl and acetaldhyde disappear (or fade, depending on yeast strain, temperature, and time) as functions of the yeast. I would consider these indications, although not visible to the eye.

I'm not sure you ARE asking about. You just said, "I don't care what anybody says, I'm doing this..............." and "are there any indications that yeast is cleaning up after itself?"

You seem to not like the answers you get. If you want visible indications that the diacetyl decreases with time in the fermenter, you won't get it. But trust me (or don't- {shrug}) we know what we're talking about.

 

[demens]

A secondary is really not the correct term- since fermentation is over before it's moved. In pro breweries, it's called the "bright tank"- that's a clearing vessel that the beer might stay in to clear and condition.

I cal it secondary because thats what i thought everyone calls it. And the reason i do want to use it is exactly what you said, to clear it because i think it turned out darker then i would have liked due to using the smallest amount of water for a partial boil. Does "clearing" mean the color will actually get lighter or it just means the beer wont have anything floating in it, i dont know, but i'll see when i get there.

But again, thanks for sharing plenty of info and still not answering the question asked. I'm not being condescending either. All the extra info is useful for me since i'm very new to this even if its something i've already read about or is not answering the question i asked.

 

[demens]

If you want visible indications that the diacetyl decreases with time in the fermenter, you won't get it.

This is the answer i was looking for.

 

[Yooper]

But again, thanks for sharing plenty of info and still not answering the question asked. I'm not being condescending either. All the extra info is useful for me since i'm very new to this even if its something i've already read about or is not answering the question i asked.

Well, if no one has answered your questions, I guess the question is either unanswerable, or ununderstandable.

If you'd seriously slow down and read the answers, you wouldn't even have a question.

 

[HItransplant]

I think the problem is..

if you know what your process is (ie Im going to leave it in for 3 weeks), then why ask, "is my process ok(ie, should I leave it in longer)?"

i think thats what has yoop irritated.

 

[Yooper]

I cal it secondary because thats what i thought everyone calls it. And the reason i do want to use it is exactly what you said, to clear it because i think it turned out darker then i would have liked due to using the smallest amount of water for a partial boil. Does "clearing" mean the color will actually get lighter or it just means the beer wont have anything floating in it, i dont know, but i'll see when i get there.

Well, "secondary" is a wrong term. But if you wanna call it that, that's cool. I make wine, and we use secondaries all the time. But I almost never use one for beer, even though I brew a ton of beer.

Anyway, it'll clear in the fermenter, the clearing vessel, or the bottle. Moving it doesn't magically make it clear. That's why most of us (including some of the "best minds" in homebrewing like John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff) don't use what you're calling a "secondary." Some brewers DO wrongly use the term secondary, and I find it confusing for new brewers since it's a real term in winemaking. It is used rarely in beers, but occasionally there really IS a secondary fermentation on a beer. Sour beers, spiced beers, barley wines, lagers, etc, sometimes use a true secondary.

By clear I mean no floaters. Not a big color change- in fact, it'll probably look darker after it clears and the (white) yeast will fall out, and leave the darker beer behind. If you want a lighter colored beer, that's a technique issue not a clearing/secondary/fermenter issue. We can help you fix that- it's a pretty easy fix- for your next brew. Extract just darkens with boiling, but adding it late in the boil is one way to keep it from darkening so much. We can talk you through the next brew so that you can get the results you want.

 

[Gameface]

As has been stated, your beer will clear up eventually, no matter what you do. But from reading on this site I've learned that leaving it in the primary for longer allows the yeast to fall out of suspension and create a harder yeast cake that will be less likely to get stirred up and transferred when you do transfer it. That will only make it more clear faster in the next vessel you put it in. Also, the yeast do consume some of the by-products of fermentation and there are a lot more yeast in the primary then there will be in any subsequent vessel, so they'll do their job best there. Then, as has been mentioned, there is the possibility of oxidizing or infecting your beer every time you transfer it. Transferring stirs up some yeast, so I feel like you get the best bang for your buck leaving it in the primary because the week it spends in secondary will just be spent clearing up everything you've stirred up transferring it.

If the concern is freeing up the primary then by all means transfer it and get another batch going. Another option might be to buy another fermentation bucket. They aren't free, so I don't want to make light of the expense of my suggestion, but they do only cost around $15, which is about what I spend on two vials of White Labs yeast. That will allow you to leave your batches alone and get a good flow going through your beer pipeline while still following the best practices of many of the best home brewers.

It's been working for me very well.

 

[demens]

Extract just darkens with boiling, but adding it late in the boil is one way to keep it from darkening so much. We can talk you through the next brew so that you can get the results you want.

I'll make sure to research that further when the time comes for my 2nd brew. But since you bring it up, just wanna make sure i'm understanding correctly. When you say add the extract late, you mean have the water close to ready to boil? I was afraid that it would stick to the bottom of the pot, it was actually a pain to mix in and make sure it dissolves. I did not expect the extract to be as thick and sticky as it was.

To be honest, i actually LIKE the color, i just know that Amber should not be THAT dark so i figured there was something wrong with the technique as you said.

Do you think pot size had an impact on the color? My pot was not even 3G, it was like 2.8, i started with only 1.5G of water.

 

[demens]

If the concern is freeing up the primary then by all means transfer it and get another batch going.

Thats definitely part of. I dont plan for another brew soon, but when i was buying the kit that was the idea....pipeline...keeping things moving. I did not know that "secondary" was such an uncommon use, and i understand the danger of oxidizing and infection. I would rather take that risk now, with my 1st "cheap" brew and get the technique down, then mess it up later when i'm making a beer I really love (not that i'm not looking forward to this one).

 

[DarkUncle]

demens,

When Yoop said to add extract late in the boil, he means instead of adding the extract right in the beginning of the boil and boiling for a full hour, try adding it say after 30 mnutes has passed and only boiling for 30 minutes instead of a full 60.

I've actually added half the container of extract right in the beginning of the boil T=60 and then added the other half with 30 minutes to go T=30. You may wish to play with that a little next time.

 

[AnOldUR]

Well, "secondary" is a wrong term.

Well, "secondary fermenter" may be the wrong term if fermentation is complete before you transfer, but plain old "secondary" has evolved to mean "secondary vessel", so it's still appropriate to use.

When Yoop said to add extract late in the boil, he means . . .

Now, them's is fight'in words. :cross:

 

[Yooper]

When Yoop said to add extract late in the boil, he means instead of adding the extract right in the beginning of the boil and boiling for a full hour, try adding it say after 30 mnutes has passed and only boiling for 30 minutes instead of a full 60.

I've actually added half the container of extract right in the beginning of the boil T=60 and then added the other half with 30 minutes to go T=30. You may wish to play with that a little next time.

I actually would add the bulk of the extract at flame out. No boil necessary, but some feel that the boiling temperature sanitizes the wort.

A 1.5 gallon boil definitely would concentrate the wort, making a thick carmelized wort. Well, not carmelized exactly, as it would be maillard reactions and not a true carmelization, but that's sort of the best way to describe it.

If you must do a boil of under 2 gallons, I'd add the majority of the extract at the end of the boil. Take it off of the flame, stir in the extract, and then put it back on the burner after it's all mixed. Or, like I said, add it at flame out.

I'm not a fan at all of canned liquid extract. If you're using that, it's better to ditch it and either buy dry malt extract, or fresh liquid extract from a homebrew store that goes through it fast. Like austinhomebrew.com or northernbrewer.com- they have fresh liquid extract they sell in buckets in the quantity you need. The canned stuff is not as good, and won't give the best flavor.

(I've been called "he" before so it really doesn't bother me. It's better than some of the other things I've been called around here! )

 

[Yooper]

Well, "secondary fermenter" may be the wrong term if fermentation is complete before you transfer, but plain old "secondary" has evolved to mean "secondary vessel", so it's still appropriate.

That's a good point- and I agree. Sort of. I guess my beef is that it's used so much that it's confusing to new brewers who think a. It's required, b. it's actually a secondary fermentation, c. that something happens in there.

I think that's where much of the confusion comes from. If all of us called the carboy a "clearing tank" or "bright tank" unless we were doing a secondary, it might be easier to explain the process to new brewers. Especially in my case- I was a winemaker first. So, when you talk about racking to secondary, it has a very real meaning about what the SG should be, how much activity there should be, etc. Many people have said- "I' don't see activity in secondary- can I add more yeast?" and we have this same discussion.

 

[specialkaye]

Do you think pot size had an impact on the color? My pot was not even 3G, it was like 2.8, i started with only 1.5G of water.

Damens, use the search and you'll see just how much pot size can affect what's going on. As for adding the extract, it helps if you warm it first. Place the sealed can/jug in a warm water bath while your big pot is warming up. When I made cultured marble, one technique to get a really good mix was to drizzle the addition into the mixing vessel. With the pre-warmed extract, this is actually pretty easy. Open extract, flame off (or take pot off burner), start stirring, drizzle extract into pot WHILE STIRRING. I drizzle in a very thin thread, no bigger than a pencil, keeping the spoon/paddle out of it. Yup, might take me a couple minutes to add all the extract. Oh well. I get a good mix, skip the burn, and love the beer.