Is Secondary Fermentation worth it?

[Hoppopotomus]

Hi guys and gals. Bottling my first batch of American IPA this weekend. I did a 2 week primary fermentation in the Ale Pail and then racked to a secondary glass carboy for an additional week for settling/clarifying. I now have an American Brown Ale in a primary Ale Pail and this weekend will be 2 weeks. I was planning on racking this batch to my secondary Carboy after bottling the first batch as long as the FG is down where it needs to be. Of course, I'll clean and sanitize the carboy before doing so. I've noticed that many of you do not rack to a secondary fermenter at all and just leave the batch in the primary for the duration of the fermentation process. Besides risk of contaminating the batch or oxygenating it with an aggressive racking, is there any other risks or drawbacks.

I'm being very careful to make sure that everything is thoroughly sanitized and when I racked the first batch over to the secondary, did so very carefully to avoid splashing or agitating the batch. The manager of the HBS is a big believer in secondary fermentation and of course, my BB kits recommend it. I just want as much information about this as I can get, so I can make an informed, educated decision on whether or not I continue with the practice of racking to a secondary. I need the advice from all of you seasoned experts out there that have been at this much longer than myself! Thanks in advance for your insight.

 

[PanzerBanana]

Secondary helps get the beer off the spent yeast and gives a little more time for the beer to clear up. It's also commonly the step many dry hop, but then you could also do that in primary.

Once your beer is fermented the alcohol should be enough to protect against a lot of contamination and with a gentle siphoning there's not too much to worry about racking into secondary.

I always go to secondary to help with clarity and, as mentioned, to get my beer off the spent yeast. It's one of those things that can be largely a matter of preference depending on what you're brewing.

 

[Walker]

this is somewhat of a hot button item, actually.

many people do not use secondaries, and that side of the line is growing in number. I do use secondaries, and have no intentions of stopping that.

If you want to dive into the thick of this issue, then check out this ridiculously long thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Absolutely yes.

Forrest

 

[Walker]

Absolutely yes.

Forrest

Got a lot of 5 gallon carboys you need to unload, Forrest?

 

[BendBrewer]

I was planning on racking this batch to my secondary Carboy after bottling the first batch as long as the FG is down where it needs to be. Of course, I'll clean and sanitize the carboy before doing so. I've noticed that many of you do not rack to a secondary fermenter at all and just leave the batch in the primary for the duration of the fermentation process.

But some of us that do rack to a 'secondary' don't bother with the cleaning and sanitizing step. If what you bottle or keg out of your carboy isn't infected, dumping another batch right in won't be infected.

I usually go 2 beers then clean. Last weekend I kegged 10 gallons. Racked 10 more gallons out of primaries right into the 'used' carboys, and brewed 10 more gallons and dumped it on the yeast cakes from that beer. Moved 30 gallons between 6 vessels and only cleaned the 2 kegs. I'm lazy and I don't worry.

 

[PassionBeer]

I use a secondary. And sanitize it after I bottle as I normally don't have another to rack onto it yet.

YMMV

 

[Walker]

But some of us that do rack to a 'secondary' don't bother with the cleaning and sanitizing step. If what you bottle or keg out of your carboy isn't infected, dumping another batch right in won't be infected.

I usually go 2 beers then clean. Last weekend I kegged 10 gallons. Racked 10 more gallons out of primaries right into the 'used' carboys, and brewed 10 more gallons and dumped it on the yeast cakes from that beer. Moved 30 gallons between 6 vessels and only cleaned the 2 kegs. I'm lazy and I don't worry.

I've been tempted to try that, too, but haven't done it yet. I do all my brewery activities on the same day, and it would work as far as time was concerned:

- I keg a 4 week old batch from secondary while mashing
- rack a 2 week old batch from primary while boiling
- fill the primary with the new beer after chilling

So, my fermenters and kegs are just in constant use. but, I do oxiclean soaks and starsan swishes. No actual muscle used (no scrubbing or anything), I just let the oxiclean sit for a while and then dump it out.

 

[bob1852]

It's not really secondary "fermentation" if you rack it when it's done fermenting. The proper term at this point is bright tank.

 

[elkdog]

Got a lot of 5 gallon carboys you need to unload, Forrest?

Heh!
If you've got the equipment to do it, I recommend trying it to see what you think, as lots of brewers who know their stuff will line up on either side of the debate. I pretty much only use secondaries when I dry hop, fwiw.

 

[OHIOSTEVE]

I use secondary for everything with one exception... the other night I decided to bottle a brew right from primary to bottling bucket to bottles. I hated it. trying to keep the racking cane just above the trub IMO was a pain in the ass. I much prefer to just drop the cane in and siphon to secondary.. cold crash a few days then do the same to bottling bucket. I get almost zero trub in my bottles this way and I like it much better.

 

[HoppyMaltPoet]

First let me say I also rack to secondary, because I also feel that I am getting clearer beer by doing so. I feel it is easier (as the above poster said) to avoid siphoning trub/yeast cake/whatever if I am racking off a smaller sediment layer. I also want as little sediment in my keg as possible (don't want that first pint to come out sludgy).

With that said, I think one of the main reasons that people used a secondary in the past was because of autolysis. Today I don't think this is as big a concern due to better yeast strains being used. Also racking to a secondary could potentially lead to oxidizing your beer. By leaving it in the primary you can avoid that risk. Although I have never had this happen to me, I guess the risk is still there.

 

[Walker]

First let me say I also rack to secondary, because I also feel that I am getting clearer beer by doing so. I feel it is easier (as the above poster said) to avoid siphoning trub/yeast cake/whatever if I am racking off a smaller sediment layer. I also want as little sediment in my keg as possible (don't want that first pint to come out sludgy).

With that said, I think one of the main reasons that people used a secondary in the past was because of autolysis. Today I don't think this is as big a concern due to better yeast strains being used. Also racking to a secondary could potentially lead to oxidizing your beer. By leaving it in the primary you can avoid that risk. Although I have never had this happen to me, I guess the risk is still there.

perfect summary. why is used to be done, why some still do it, and why some no longer do it.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Yeah, I realized that I was off in my terminology. The guy at the HBS that I go to recommends the secondary for letting the beer settle and clarify. He recommends that fermentation be complete by checking FG readings. The Brewers Best kits that I have tried recommend racking to a secondary for "secondary fermentation" after 5 to 7 days, but before airlock activity stops and before true FG. What do you recommend a secondary for: 1) clarifying/settling or 2) secondary fermentation? I'm really new at this and realize that there are several different camps. I'll post this question to all. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[HoppyMaltPoet]

Yeah, I realized that I was off in my terminology. The guy at the HBS that I go to recommends the secondary for letting the beer settle and clarify. He recommends that fermentation be complete by checking FG readings. The Brewers Best kits that I have tried recommend racking to a secondary for "secondary fermentation" after 5 to 7 days, but before airlock activity stops and before true FG. What do you recommend a secondary for: 1) clarifying/settling or 2) secondary fermentation? I'm really new at this and realize that there are several different camps. I'll post this question to all. Thanks for the feedback.

Secondary fermentation is really a misnomer. There really shouldn't be any fermentation going on at this stage. You may see some air lock activity but this is most likely due to a release of excess CO2. The secondary is really more of a clarifying vessel.

 

[MooDaddy]

Maybe a dumb question given that I am just in the process of tackling my first home brew, but, is the added clarity folks mention that comes with racking to a secondary really a major issue with the dark ales and stouts?

 

[Shinglejohn]

Man is this played a played out subject!

 

[breez7]

I used to use a seconday for every brew but now I only use it for big beers or when I dont have an empty keg laying around and am too lazy to bottle. It may help with clarity but unless your entering a light lager into a competition I dont think that is very necessary. Using some irish moss and getting a good cold break has made all of my brews very clean that never made it to a secondary. Heck I even dry hop in the primary. The best way to figure this out is to try it out both ways and see if you notice enough of a difference or any difference at all to waste the time. It's YOUR beer do what works for you.

 

[bob1852]

Secondary fermentation is really a misnomer. There really shouldn't be any fermentation going on at this stage. You may see some air lock activity but this is most likely due to a release of excess CO2. The secondary is really more of a clarifying vessel.

Sort of....

The bright tank is a clarifying vessel, which is often referred to as a "secondary."

There are brewing techniques where people purposely rack to a secondary fermentation vessel prior to completed fermentation - this a true secondary fermentation. Not many people do this - but it is done.

Cue the Revvy v. Kabouter debate on this topic

 

[PassionBeer]

Maybe a dumb question given that I am just in the process of tackling my first home brew, but, is the added clarity folks mention that comes with racking to a secondary really a major issue with the dark ales and stouts?

No, not really.

However it will, in my opinion, help lessen the sediment getting into your bottles.

 

[Wayne1]

It's not really secondary "fermentation" if you rack it when it's done fermenting. The proper term at this point is bright tank.

Not quite

The "proper" term is a conditioning vessel. In the commercial brewing world, a bright tank is used to refer to a vessel that holds a filtered, carbonated beer. This would also be known as a Tax Determination Tank. The amount of beer in this tank is what the brewer pays taxes on.

Sorry for the thread jack.

A conditioning vessel is used in commercial brewing to move the beer into when you need a fermenter. In homebrewing, it often is not needed. If you have enough vessels, or are not brewing all the time, there isn't much need to transfer to another container.

A conditioning vessel is very useful when dry hopping. You can dry hop in the first container and then rack off into a conditioning vessel to allow the beer to clear. If possible, the conditioning vessel can have it's temperature lowered. Then finings can be introduced. The clear beer can the be kegged or bottled.

 

[bob1852]

Not quite

The "proper" term is a conditioning vessel. In the commercial brewing world, a bright tank is used to refer to a vessel that holds a filtered, carbonated beer. This would also be known as a Tax Determination Tank. The amount of beer in this tank is what the brewer pays taxes on.

Sorry for the thread jack.

A conditioning vessel is used in commercial brewing to move the beer into when you need a fermenter. In homebrewing, it often is not needed. If you have enough vessels, or are not brewing all the time, there isn't much need to transfer to another container.

A conditioning vessel is very useful when dry hopping. You can dry hop in the first container and then rack off into a conditioning vessel to allow the beer to clear. If possible, the conditioning vessel can have it's temperature lowered. Then finings can be introduced. The clear beer can the be kegged or bottled.

I hereby concede to you and terminology.

 

[jackers252]

I don't agree that using a secondary is necessary, let alone optimal. There have been plenty of discussions but heavy hitters like Palmer even say it's not necessary to secondary. And there are plenty of debates about clarity as well, since some think the yeast need time to clear the beer, where the secondary prevents that from happening.

Me personally, I am going primary only. I just did a 4 week primary on an Austin Homebrew Clone of Stone's IPA. At the end of the 4 weeks, I dry hopped for a week right in the same fermentor. It has definitely been the best beer I have made and the clearest to date.

Until the primary only method produces some poor results, I can't think of a reason to switch back to secondary fermentations.

 

[BigJerk]

I've said "meh" to secondaries ever since kegging. I just let it age a week or two in the keg before sticking it in the fridge. as long as you don't fiddle with the racking cane too much, you don't get that much sediment in the keg, I generally get one or two pints with sediment, and that loss is worth the not hassling with secondarying.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Got a lot of 5 gallon carboys you need to unload, Forrest?

Everyone else is allowed to post thier opinion. The OP asked if it is worth it. It is not manditory by any means. Worth it, yes.

Forrest

 

[jbrookeiv]

No.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Personally I don't like having to explain the sediment in the beer to people. And to have to instruct them how to pour the beer and to leave a little behind. People that have never had homebrew will be concerned with the cloudiness and sediment.

Full disclosure: No angle, not trying to sell you anything. Just my opinion.

Forrest

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I actually do both depending on the brew.

I tend to not worry about racking into a secondary, as I have gotten good results flavor-wise without it, and the beer tends to clear up real nice in the bottle. Also, as I have gotten a friend and my father-in-law into brewing and we all share equipment (yay saving costs!) it is hard to free up a vessel for racking.

However, I will rack with beers that really need to clarify (IPA's, Belgians, and anything that has lots of floaties) to give it more chance. I also rack with anything that I have a great amount of yeast cake sitting around, as I feel like I need to do a bit of cleaning for my beer.

So, it is FINE to stick it in the primary and let it go all the way, you just will be more concerned about bottle conditioning rather than bulk conditioning, and it will look cloudier on brew day. That being said, I did a saison that I racked, and at bottling it looked like banana cream pie filling, but cleared up beautifully.

My answer - go to secondary if you feel like it and want to, or if you want to just not worry about it until bottling day, let it go and do its thing. You will still have beer, and how good it is depends on you and the recipe, not if you put it in a different bucket or not.

 

[nanop]

For me it depends on a number of factors... This is by no means a hard-and-set rule, but, I'll usually rack to secondary for 2-3 weeks if at least one or two of the following are true:

- I didn't filter very well when funneling from kettle to primary (sometimes I forgo the fine mesh in the funnel for a wide-mesh kitchen strainer).

- The beer's very cloudy and needs some extra time to clarify (or I'm afraid that if I bottle from the primary I'll kick up too much of the crud that's already settled).

- I want to dry hop (I like the dry hopping in a 5gal carboy instead of a 6.5 gal)

- I want to add extracts, spices or honey to the secondary (same reason as above)

- I want to brew another beer and need to get the beer out of my 6.5 gallon primary but don't think it's ready for bottling yet. This is usually true if the OG was above, say, 1.065

- I want to reuse the yeast cake (see above)

- I'm bored. yep. I know I'm not the only one that sometimes racks to secondary because he likes to stay busy with his beer.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Thanks to those who have been gracious enough to provide me with further insight. I apologize to the few that feel that maybe this topic has been beat to death on HBT. I am brand new to home brewing and to this site and have been asking a lot of questions over the past couple of weeks. I am not yet up to speed on the etiquette and protocols expected for asking questions on this site. Most responses to my threads have been helpful and very encouraging, but I have sensed with a few that there is some underlying irritation towards some of the NOOB questions. I am quickly realizing that I need to relax and enjoy the process and stop obsessing about every little step along the way. I think my biggest downfall was reading John Palmers book (the old version) cover to cover before starting this process. I should have just listened to the guy at my HBS who said that "brewing should be fun and easy, not intimidating and stressful like Palmer presents it as being". For those that have helped me along the way so far, thanks for everything! For those who seem to get a little irritated with some of our questions, I understand. Having spent time on this site over the past couple of weeks, I realize that most topics, obstacles, and questions that I have about home brewing have most likely been tackled numerous times and I just need to take the time to explore the threads. Thanks again!

 

[Berniep]

Thanks to those who have been gracious enough to provide me with further insight. I apologize to the few that feel that maybe this topic has been beat to death on HBT. I am brand new to home brewing and to this site and have been asking a lot of questions over the past couple of weeks. I am not yet up to speed on the etiquette and protocols expected for asking questions on this site. Most responses to my threads have been helpful and very encouraging, but I have sensed with a few that there is some underlying irritation towards some of the NOOB questions. I am quickly realizing that I need to relax and enjoy the process and stop obsessing about every little step along the way. I think my biggest downfall was reading John Palmers book (the old version) cover to cover before starting this process. I should have just listened to the guy at my HBS who said that "brewing should be fun and easy, not intimidating and stressful like Palmer presents it as being". For those that have helped me along the way so far, thanks for everything! For those who seem to get a little irritated with some of our questions, I understand. Having spent time on this site over the past couple of weeks, I realize that most topics, obstacles, and questions that I have about home brewing have most likely been tackled numerous times and I just need to take the time to explore the threads. Thanks again!

I have to say that I was a little overwhelmed after reading Palmers book also.
But after doing a few extract batches I found it was a lot simpler than I first thought. I am starting to think about aquiring equipment to go all grain now.
As for secondary I haven't yet and my beers clear well if I give them enough time in the keg, that can be pretty hard if you don't have another beer ready to drink. I think I had my first batch half gone before it was even fully carbed.

 

[Hoppopotomus]

Thanks for the response. I'm just one of those guys that has to learn as much as I possibly can before diving into something. There are so many different trains of thought out there on home brewing that at times it can be confusing. I have quickly realized that I need to just chill out, have fun, and enjoy....not obsess over everything. The guy at the HBS thinks that everything should go to a secondary to rest and settle out, but then again, he sells all Brewer's Best brew kits, extract kits, equipment and BB recommends it, so maybe that is why.

I too have been exploring the realm of all grain, but need to get more extract brewing sessions in to work out the kinks on brew day. I'm bottling my first batch (IPA) this weekend and was planning to rack my second batch (ABA) over to the secondary, but now am reconsidering it. I have to say that my first batch went very well and was a good learning experience on time management for brew day. My second batch went smooth as silk, as far as the process goes. I have yet to consume my first HB, so I'm hoping the beer is something that I can be proud of. I will not consider moving to all grain until I have had consistent success with extract brewing.

 

[smizak]

"brewing should be fun and easy, not intimidating and stressful like Palmer presents it as being"

Huh. I've never thought or have heard of anyone referring to How to Brew that way. Reading it actually inspired me to brew because I thought he made it look easy. Sure, he goes into some techy detail in the all-grain part, but he gives warning and I thought the extract beer section was super concise and not intimidating at all.


Weighing in on secondary:

To each his own, it works both ways. Personally, I find that cold-crashing my fermenter after a week works just as well at removing sediment as a month-long primary or two-week secondary. I choose less work, less time, less oxidation risk, less sanitation risk and bottle from primary after crashing the yeast.

 

[jackers252]

Thanks for the response. I'm just one of those guys that has to learn as much as I possibly can before diving into something. There are so many different trains of thought out there on home brewing that at times it can be confusing. I have quickly realized that I need to just chill out, have fun, and enjoy....not obsess over everything. The guy at the HBS thinks that everything should go to a secondary to rest and settle out, but then again, he sells all Brewer's Best brew kits, extract kits, equipment and BB recommends it, so maybe that is why.

I too have been exploring the realm of all grain, but need to get more extract brewing sessions in to work out the kinks on brew day. I'm bottling my first batch (IPA) this weekend and was planning to rack my second batch (ABA) over to the secondary, but now am reconsidering it. I have to say that my first batch went very well and was a good learning experience on time management for brew day. My second batch went smooth as silk, as far as the process goes. I have yet to consume my first HB, so I'm hoping the beer is something that I can be proud of. I will not consider moving to all grain until I have had consistent success with extract brewing.

Don't fear the all-grain!

 

[jackers252]

Huh. I've never thought or have heard of anyone referring to How to Brew that way. Reading it actually inspired me to brew because I thought he made it look easy. Sure, he goes into some techy detail in the all-grain part, but he gives warning and I thought the extract beer section was super concise and not intimidating at all.


Weighing in on secondary:

To each his own, it works both ways. Personally, I find that cold-crashing my fermenter after a week works just as well at removing sediment as a month-long primary or two-week secondary. I choose less work, less time, less oxidation risk, less sanitation risk and bottle from primary after crashing the yeast.

Very interesting approach. I'd like to play around with shorter primary only batches to see if it makes a difference. I run a 6 tap setup so I am never really in a hurry for a new batch and I prefer to give the little yeasties time to do their thing. But I think I will try some side by side trials to really find out. Great input.

 

[Drinks3point2]

The whole point of this website seems to be for increasing and sharing knowledge. It's unfortunate that some users get frustrated in the Beginners Beer Brewing Forum. Thankfully not everyone of the experienced folks are easily annoyed by those of us with less experience. Thanks beeropotomus for asking the question. I'm with you on wanting as much knowledge as possible and everyone of these types of threads helps.

 

[smizak]

Very interesting approach. I'd like to play around with shorter primary only batches to see if it makes a difference. I run a 6 tap setup so I am never really in a hurry for a new batch and I prefer to give the little yeasties time to do their thing. But I think I will try some side by side trials to really find out. Great input.

Please do and let us know. I know a lot of users here employ the three-week or month long primary thing, but I don't like to wait if I don't have to. If the beer looks done, I take a hydro reading, then take another two days later. If it's the same, beer's done fermenting, yeast have had two days to clean up, crash @ 40F for two days and bottle. Just bottled a 1.064 brown ale after 9 days, tastes amazing, little more than a scant dusting of yeast in the bottom of the bottles. Even Mike "Tasty" McDole has brewed lagers grain to glass in two weeks, some of which have placed in the final round of NHC!

 

[jackers252]

Please do and let us know. I know a lot of users here employ the three-week or month long primary thing, but I don't like to wait if I don't have to. If the beer looks done, I take a hydro reading, then take another two days later. If it's the same, beer's done fermenting, yeast have had two days to clean up, crash @ 40F for two days and bottle. Just bottled a 1.064 brown ale after 9 days, tastes amazing, little more than a scant dusting of yeast in the bottom of the bottles. Even Mike "Tasty" McDole has brewed lagers grain to glass in two weeks, some of which have placed in the final round of NHC!

Do you use gelatin when you cold crash?

 

[smizak]

Do you use gelatin when you cold crash?

No, not always, but I have some and have toyed with the idea. I've had so little yeast in the bottles that you don't have to worry about it, it stays stuck to the bottom mostly and doesn't pour in. Just like Sierra Nevada bottles. So I haven't felt the need for most beers.

I gelatin out the yeast on my big belgians and pitch some fresh Safbrew T-58 in the bottling buckets for carbonation. I've had a strong dubbel take almost six weeks to carb, too long for me. Tired, alcohol-stressed yeast. With the re-pitching method, my last Tripel carbed in a week @ 9.5% ABV.

 

[MooDaddy]

Beeropotomus,

I'm with you 100% - getting prepared to do my first brew and really excited about it. Still, although I agree the process should first and foremost be fun, I personally like to have some knowledge of what I'm getting into before diving in, and this forum has been very helpful along those lines.

Granted, the vets may tire of the same old tired "newbie" questions, but they were there once, and while I understand their interest to move on to bigger and more exciting brewing discussions, the service they provide in recounting their own learning experiences and resultant acquired expertise can really be invaluable to folks like us who are long on enthusiasm but short on brewing wisdom.

Hopefully, somewhere down the road when I'm working on my 100th brew, I'll be able to lend a hand to someone pondering the nuances of wort thermometers or whether or not to sanitize bottle caps or whatever.

Kinda looking forward to that actually.