Is Second Staging Necessary?

[pfgonzo]

Don't misunderstand. I wasn't advocating getting your beer off the yeast ASAP. I was touting it as a benefit should you wish to move things along to the bottling/kegging stage and enjoy the fruits of your labors sooner.

 

[AnOldUR]

I'm not concerned with getting my beer off the yeast. Getting the yeast out from under the beer is one of the things I'm after. Would you willingly leave a fresh pack of yeast or a starter sitting on the counter for two weeks or more? That's what you're doing with a 3-4 week primary.

 

[Beerthoven]

There is a certain depth of trub after primary fermentation completes. If I siphon directly to my keg from primary, I tend to inevitably suck up more than I want from the bottom, and my first pint or two from the keg has floaties. Not a problem for most people, but I've found that if I secondary, that extra bit of trub that I sucked up the first time settles (along with more yeast during the lagering process), and when I siphon to my keg from secondary, there's a whole lot less that I accidentally suck up into my keg. My first pints pour clear doing this, and it works for me.

I secondary almost every single beer, too, and the above is the reason why. My fermentation cooler is in my detached garage, a good 100 feet from my kitchen, and carrying the bucket into the house always stirs up a lot of yeast. I recognize that a secondary is technically not necessary, but I like to put the clearest beer possible into my kegs, so I do it. This is also the time when I measure the FG and get the first taste of the finished beer. If you're clean and quiet when you rack, oxidation and infection will not be issues.

 

[unionrdr]

You're not doing any harm to the yeast with a 3-4 week primary. If it takes that long to finish,they aren't going dormant or autolyzing.

 

[AnOldUR]

You're not doing any harm to the yeast with a 3-4 week primary. If it takes that long to finish,they aren't going dormant or autolyzing.

A healthy fermentation in an average ale last 3-5 days. After that your yeast is losing viability every day it sits at fermentation temperature.

 

[unionrdr]

You must be pitching huge starters to get completely done in 3-5 days. The average ale/brewer usually takes longer then that. My 1.060 ESB was completely done & cleared well in 10 days. But initial fermentation usually lasts 3 days or so. And not all the yeast has settled as soon as initial fermentation is done. In my experiences they don't autolyze at the drop of a hat either. They're pretty resilient cells.

 

[GrogNerd]

but THEY'RE DYING!

won't you THINK OF THE (yeast) CHILDREN!™

 

[unionrdr]

Seriously?!

 

[AnOldUR]

In my experiences they don't autolyze at the drop of a hat either. They're pretty resilient cells.

Autolysis and reduced viability are two different things. A vial of yeast will lose viability over time even while refrigerated, but not autolyze.

 

[unionrdr]

Not that much ime. Bur it also depends on how long you're storing it before re-using.Viability doesn't seem to decrease that fast. And you're making a starter with them anyway.

 

[skw]

but THEY'RE DYING!

won't you THINK OF THE (yeast) CHILDREN!™

Dead yeast doesn't reproduce. Good riddance, let the healthy cells multiply

 

[Puddlethumper]

You must be pitching huge starters to get completely done in 3-5 days. The average ale/brewer usually takes longer then that. My 1.060 ESB was completely done & cleared well in 10 days. But initial fermentation usually lasts 3 days or so. And not all the yeast has settled as soon as initial fermentation is done. In my experiences they don't autolyze at the drop of a hat either. They're pretty resilient cells.

I completely agree with you. I've come to the conclusion that the bigger the beer the longer the primary. I would expect a 1.060 beer to take longer to complete than something in the more moderate ranges. And I wouldn't move a really big beer like a barleywine or RIS to it's aging vessel until at least 2-3 weeks primary. But that's just me based on the stuff I'm learning as I go along here.

(Might learn something different next week!)

 

[patthebrewer]

You must be pitching huge starters to get completely done in 3-5 days. The average ale/brewer usually takes longer then that. My 1.060 ESB was completely done & cleared well in 10 days. But initial fermentation usually lasts 3 days or so. And not all the yeast has settled as soon as initial fermentation is done. In my experiences they don't autolyze at the drop of a hat either. They're pretty resilient cells.

Bingo...what he said.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Here's what John Palmer has to say about the subject......

I found this entire post interesting. Palmer, Papazian, Jamil, et. al. certainly present credentials that are somewhat awe-inspiring to most homebrewers. However, we need to be mindful of the fact that they present their opinions and not the opinions of every professional involved in brewing beer. We do well to take their views into consideration but must be careful not to treat their opinions as divinely inspired and indisputable. There are numerous professionals in the brewing industry who hold different views from theirs, and these professionals' views need to be considered as well.

As we progress along the path toward better brewing we each need to decide who we see as the best source of information. As for me I choose to listen more closely to those who make a living making and selling beer than to those who make a living selling books about making beer.

Cheers!

 

[AnOldUR]

You're not doing any harm to the yeast with a 3-4 week primary. If it takes that long to finish,they aren't going dormant or autolyzing.

Here's what John Palmer has to say about the subject......

Just thought I'd highlight some of that quote that was conveniently left out. So it sounds like he's saying, small beer 3 days, bigger beer 8 days. And if you read my post, there was no mention of using a secondary or the fear of autolysis. Just harvesting yeast and getting it in the fridge when it's at its best as opposed to letting it sit at fermentation temperatures after there's no advantage to it.

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

 

[unionrdr]

That sounds a little more like it. But I think as we all progress in this hobby that we find no absolutes in regard to ferment times,etc. I think taking 10 days for a 1.060 wort to finish & settle out clear is pretty good myself. The beer tastes balanced when flat on bottling day. And that's the real point to me. But since individual results from personal practices will vary,what's working for you is fine.

 

[patthebrewer]

Just thought I'd highlight some of that quote that was conveniently left out. So it sounds like he's saying, small beer 3 days, bigger beer 8 days. And if you read my post, there was no mention of using a secondary or the fear of autolysis. Just harvesting yeast and getting it in the fridge when it's at its best as opposed to letting it sit at fermentation temperatures after there's no advantage to it.

Not sure who left out that part, if you re read my post That's exactly what I posted. So Who conveniently left out anything??

 

[AnOldUR]

I think taking 10 days for a 1.060 wort to finish & settle out clear is pretty good myself.

It depends on the beer, but in practice, that's my routine also. 8-10 day primary, cold crash primary for a couple of days, transfer and harvest rinsed yeast. So, at two weeks I'm ready to brew a new batch with a slurry of fresh, healthy yeast and no need to make a starter. Harvest yeast that's been sitting dormant at room temperature for three weeks and you don't have that advantage. The yeast is metabolizing its stores to survive. Get it in the fridge and you can slow this process.

And speaking of absolutes, that's what I find annoying about that Palmer quote. Absolutes on broad topics make the person speaking sound ignorant. When he recommends not using a secondary on ANY beer he's backed himself into a corner. It's obvious that there are reasons to secondary other than actual secondary fermentation. For one, the interaction of yeast an hops and the influence on beer character is becoming more understood. Palmer is a knowledgeable guy. The problem is that people quote everything he say like it’s some kind of credo when in reality, he’s open to learning new things just like the rest of us should be.

 

[AnOldUR]

Not sure who left out that part, if you re read my post That's exactly what I posted. So Who conveniently left out anything??

Sorry, bad choice of words. I meant, left out of the conversation. That's what I get when I post after midnight.

 

[unionrdr]

It depends on the beer, but in practice, that's my routine also. 8-10 day primary, cold crash primary for a couple of days, transfer and harvest rinsed yeast. So, at two weeks I'm ready to brew a new batch with a slurry of fresh, healthy yeast and no need to make a starter. Harvest yeast that's been sitting dormant at room temperature for three weeks and you don't have that advantage. The yeast is metabolizing its stores to survive. Get it in the fridge and you can slow this process.

And speaking of absolutes, that's what I find annoying about that Palmer quote. Absolutes on broad topics make the person speaking sound ignorant. When he recommends not using a secondary on ANY beer he's backed himself into a corner. It's obvious that there are reasons to secondary other than actual secondary fermentation. For one, the interaction of yeast an hops and the influence on beer character is becoming more understood. Palmer is a knowledgeable guy. The problem is that people quote everything he say like it’s some kind of credo when in reality, he’s open to learning new things just like the rest of us should be.

My thoughts as well. Some of those books to seem a bit preachy in regard to some parts of the process. With sop many variables in regard to a beers constituents,yeast used,temps & timing,etc,absolutes can't be given in the stricter sense. Averages,however,are another thing...