Is my Philly Sour stuck?

[SRJHops]

What a cool/odd yeast... It did nothing for 2 days, then went from 1.045 OG to 1.014 on Day 3. It's now been stuck at 1.014 for Day 4 and 5, with no movement. Fermenting at 75 F. Has it stalled? I know it's a slow fermenter, but I'd think I'd at least get a point over two days... Looking to hit 1.007.

Sure, I'll give it a few more days. But if I'm still at 1.014 on Day 7 and 8, I think I should pitch some fresh fresh Philly Sour or CBC-1 or something...

Suggestions/thoughts?

 

[lumpher]

What was the recipe, and if all-grain, what was mash temp? The recipe might not have very been very fermentable, or a high mash temp might have led to low conversion.

 

[SRJHops]

What was the recipe, and if all-grain, what was mash temp? The recipe might not have very been very fermentable, or a high mash temp might have led to low conversion.

It's a Lichtenhainer. Going for 5% abv. Mashed at 151. Smoked wheat, pils, Vienna. It's actually within style range at 4%, but I was hoping to push it closer to 5...

 

[DuncB]

Typical attenuation is 70 to 85 % but they do say that completes in about 10 days. You could bump the temp up a couple of centigrade, did you add yeast nutrient?

 

[SRJHops]

Typical attenuation is 70 to 85 % but they do say that completes in about 10 days. You could bump the temp up a couple of centigrade, did you add yeast nutrient?

I guess it is at 68% attenuation, so perhaps it really is finished. I did use yeast nutrient.

It was a split batch, with 2.5 gallons into each fermenter. You are supposed to use two packs per 5 gallons, so I used one pack in each. (The other batch has fruit added and it's at 1.011.)

It's already pretty hot, but I'll bump it up to 80 degrees.

After that, I do think I'll probably pitch a bit more yeast and see if I can get a bit more attenuation...

 

[IslandLizard]

After that, I do think I'll probably pitch a bit more yeast and see if I can get a bit more attenuation...

A different strain of yeast perhaps, one with a higher attenuation potential? Pitch a good, active starter, though, or it's not gonna do anything. Or add some enzymes, although glucoamylase may take it down too far, creating a brut.

CBC-1 is not gonna do anything, it can't metabolize higher/larger sugars such as maltose and maltotriose.

BTW, have you tasted it? A little extra body may be welcome, while a little residual sweetness can work well with the tartness. You could add some regular sugar or dextrose to boost ABV, and thinning it out a little.

 

[DuncB]

I pitched one packet when I made a sour ipa in 23 litres so about 6 us gallons. Once the pH had dropped after 3 days I added in some opshaug kveik and kept going at 28 celsius. But I only did that because I was impatient, it should have made it but I was keen to try the copitch.
I reckon the philly sour and the kveik cleared the beer so fast and it was probably the clearest beer I've ever made, not even a hint of chill haze it just dropped like a stone once cold crashed.
I'm not a great fan of sour beers, so it was a long time in the keg fridge to get through that beer.
Sui generis has a good section on his website for philly sour.

 

[SRJHops]

A different strain of yeast perhaps, one with a higher attenuation potential? Pitch a good, active starter, though, or it's not gonna do anything. Or add some enzymes, although glucoamylase may take it down too far, creating a brut.

CBC-1 is not gonna do anything, it can't metabolize higher/larger sugars such as maltose and maltotriose.

BTW, have you tasted it? A little extra body may be welcome, while a little residual sweetness can work well with the tartness. You could add some regular sugar or dextrose to boost ABV, and thinning it out a little.

Thank for these suggestions. I haven't tasted it yet. I like the idea of adding a little sugar to give it a boost... I add sugar all the time when I make Belgians. Any wild guess as to how much table sugar to add to a 2.5 gallon batch to get it from 1.014 to 1.007? Is there a calculator for that? If not, maybe I try 4 ounces? 2 ounces?

Thanks for the info on CBC-1. I guess it only works when you also add sugar at bottling, which makes sense.

 

[DuncB]

I think I read somewhere that the lactic acid produced does also have an effect on the gravity reading, so your hydrometer reading might not be telling the alcohol truth completely.

 

[SRJHops]

I think I read somewhere that the lactic acid produced does also have an effect on the gravity reading, so your hydrometer reading might not be telling the alcohol truth completely.

That's interesting. I suppose it's all just an estimate, so who knows...

I finally got another gravity point, so maybe I'll just let it ride. If I can get another point or two I will be happy. I have never brewed such a low ABV beer, but the style tops out at 5%, and I am at 4.2, so getting close...

 

[DuncB]

That's progress, wondering how are you getting these gravity readings / monitoring this gravity change?

 

[DuncB]

I suppose there is a guess factor with the alcohol level. The philly sour yeast likes to turn glucose into Lactic acid not as a normal yeast would turn glucose into CO2 and alcohol. So there's potential lost there and the gravity change I was surmising about.
Unless you directly measure alcohol which most of us can't do the only way to get an estimate would be to brew some of that wort with a normal yeast and see where it got to and do the comparison. The difference would be the loss to lactic acid and any gravity change. Approximately.

I don't think I'd worry at all about the alcohol level more about the taste and drinkability should be a very crushable session ale at the 4% ( guestimate) .

 

[SRJHops]

That's progress, wondering how are you getting these gravity readings / monitoring this gravity change?

Using a Tilt, so the readings are always a bit suspect. But I do trust the drops in SG.

My experience is the Tilt sucks at OG, but generally gets the FG pretty close. Mostly it helps to see how fermentation is going.

 

[DuncB]

Yes I agree, I use the Ispindel and it can be a bit off at any stage but once the graph is flat for a few days I count the ferment as finished. I do a final gravity check with hydrometer but do have a digital refractometer only recently and that is really accurate with the calculator so I am using the hydrometer less and less. Old habits die hard though and it's easy enough to transfer from sample vessel to drinking vessel so there's no waste.

 

[SRJHops]

Yes I agree, I use the Ispindel and it can be a bit off at any stage but once the graph is flat for a few days I count the ferment as finished. I do a final gravity check with hydrometer but do have a digital refractometer only recently and that is really accurate with the calculator so I am using the hydrometer less and less. Old habits die hard though and it's easy enough to transfer from sample vessel to drinking vessel so there's no waste.

Same. I trust the old school hydrometer the most. It can be maddening.. I take three readings for OG, using a refractometer, Tilt, and hydrometer. Of course none are the same... So I figure the hydrometer should be the most accurate...

I take a hydrometer reading for the FG. I find the reading is usually pretty close to the Tilt at that point.

 

[DuncB]

My Milwaukee refractometer is now bang on you calibrate it with the hydrometer and it applies the correction factor. There are too many confounders with floating electronic gravity measurers, especially as I let the pressure rise towards the end of a ferment, to add to the krausen and temp change issues.
Spotting that change in angle of the graph is the key for timing of pressure or dry hopping.

 

[SRJHops]

Update: it finally started moving... After two days of no signs of fermentation, I started seeing one point per day. I'm now within two points of predicted FG. Close enough, and I could still get there. I'm on day 8, and they say this yeast needs 10 days.

My guess is this is normal for this yeast.. Long lag time, then vigorous ferment, followed by a rest period, then very slow fermentation for another week.

 

[Witherby]

A recent issue of Craft Beer and Brewing magazine had an article on acidification techniques with a lot of info on Philly Sour (which they say is notorious for stalling):

https://beerandbrewing.com/brewers-perspective-explorations-in-acidification/

Lachancea Best Practices​

Courtesy of Lallemand Brewing, here are some tips for getting the best performance out of the WildBrew Philly Sour strain (and avoiding a fermentation stall).

• Ferment it warm: For best results, ferment at 72–86°F (22–30°C).
• Pitch enough yeast: At those warmer temperaturess, pitch 10–20 grams per 5 gallons (19 liters). At cooler temperatures, increase the pitch rate to 20–30 grams. (Note: Philly Sour is available in 11-gram packets.)
• Give it time: Lachancea ferments more slowly than Saccharomyces. Given time, it will fully attenuate.
• Don’t co-pitch with Saccharomyces: The Sacch will outcompete it. If you are adding a second strain, wait until midway through fermentation.
• For more acidity, give it some sugar:The yeast first consumes glucose to produce lactic acid, so higher glucose levels will result in higher acidity. Add glucose early; late sugar additions may not be completely fermented because of high flocculation.
• One-shot deal: Lallemand doesn’t recommend re-pitching or bottle-conditioning with Philly Sour.

 

[SRJHops]

A recent issue of Craft Beer and Brewing magazine had an article on acidification techniques with a lot of info on Philly Sour (which they say is notorious for stalling):

https://beerandbrewing.com/brewers-perspective-explorations-in-acidification/

Lachancea Best Practices​

Courtesy of Lallemand Brewing, here are some tips for getting the best performance out of the WildBrew Philly Sour strain (and avoiding a fermentation stall).

• Ferment it warm: For best results, ferment at 72–86°F (22–30°C).
• Pitch enough yeast: At those warmer temperaturess, pitch 10–20 grams per 5 gallons (19 liters). At cooler temperatures, increase the pitch rate to 20–30 grams. (Note: Philly Sour is available in 11-gram packets.)
• Give it time: Lachancea ferments more slowly than Saccharomyces. Given time, it will fully attenuate.
• Don’t co-pitch with Saccharomyces: The Sacch will outcompete it. If you are adding a second strain, wait until midway through fermentation.
• For more acidity, give it some sugar:The yeast first consumes glucose to produce lactic acid, so higher glucose levels will result in higher acidity. Add glucose early; late sugar additions may not be completely fermented because of high flocculation.
• One-shot deal: Lallemand doesn’t recommend re-pitching or bottle-conditioning with Philly Sour.

Turns out it did fully attenuate. It took 12 days, but it actually ended a few points BELOW my predicted FG.

BUT I am not sure it soured the beer. I just used one packet for a 2.5 gallon batch, since you are supposed to use 2 packs per 5 gal. But I didn't get much sour after fermentation. Guess I should have pitched 2 packs. I did ferment warm...

 

[DuncB]

If you co pitch a kveik as I did after the first souring activity of the philly sour you will drop the pH more. You need a pH meter to monitor this, but first souring from philly took about 3 days, then kept it at 28 celsius and added the kveik.

 

[DuncB]

@Witherby
I read that article in beer and brewing and thought I'd have a go at the Deschutes recipe for a wine IPA type beer, I am awaiting some forager yeast that says it ferments the wort to a Sav Blanc flavour, with the deschutes recipe and the wine acids it could be interesting.
I'll eventually update once it's brewed, but probably won't tackle that until August or september.

 

[SRJHops]

If you co pitch a kveik as I did after the first souring activity of the philly sour you will drop the pH more. You need a pH meter to monitor this, but first souring from philly took about 3 days, then kept it at 28 celsius and added the kveik.

Thanks. It does have that pause after the initial souring, so it makes sense to pitch the second yeast then.