Is it Safe ?!

[ChshreCat]

Please read my Reply to "shaneoco1981" .

I use Safale-S04 Ale Dry Yeast .

Hector

Still no reason not to just use the packet.

 

[haussparker]

First off, switch to either all distiller or all spring water for your non-wort water, it doesn't matter which one you use. Personally, I use spring water. With not having the two different waters issue, you should have no reason not to just boil them all together.

Second, you don't need to boil your rehydration water. If it's bottled, it's perfectly clean and most likely will not infect your batch.

Third, the plan you described is not a good one. If you let the boiled water sit around, you've essentially negated any benefit you achieved from boiling it, unless you can seal it in an air-tight environment. Regardless, you want to rehydrate your yeast in warm water, so you would have to reheat it anyways.

Fourth, rehydration is not a necessity, you could just put it right into the fermenter dry. If you have the ability to measure 1 gram of yeast for rehydration then you have the same means to measure out the same amount and just drop it into the fermenter dry. Rehydration is a good step if you have any concerns about the viability if your yeast, because it will give you a visual indication of whether the yeast is healthy or not, but it is not necessary.

Finally, having read your prior thread, I'm still not convinced that you have an issue with infections. Your sanitation practices are fine, you should be more concerned about getting high quality ingredients and letting your beer sit long enough in both the fermenter and the bottle before passing judgment on whether it came out well.

I would agree with your comments, no one else explained as thoroughly or as accurately.

My only question is, why bother to measure out 1 gram of yeast? Packets of yeast are $.50-$1 per packet put the whole packet in or even just half. Switch to one water, why cause yourself much unneeded hassle and headache? I personally use distilled water for topping off or making starters etc, but there is nothing wrong with spring water or tap water just choose what you want to use and stick to it. The main thing you want to remember is to not over complicate your brewing, relax, be sanitary, use good quality ingredients and be patient! ;-)

 

[hector]

Hector,

How are you measuring 1 gram of yeast to rehydrate?
nathan

Very nice to hear from you here , too .

I have already a special Scale which is used to measure small amounts .

Hector

 

[hector]

Edited

 

[hector]

Edited

 

[hector]

Edited

 

[hector]

To TTB-J :

First off, switch to either all distiller or all spring water for your non-wort water, it doesn't matter which one you use. Personally, I use spring water. With not having the two different waters issue, you should have no reason not to just boil them all together.

I'm an Extract brewer and the spring water I use has relatively high levels of Bicarbonates . Therefore , I use distilled water for brewing and topping up in order to get rid of harsh after tastes in the Beer .

Second, you don't need to boil your rehydration water. If it's bottled, it's perfectly clean and most likely will not infect your batch.

An Expert who works in production of this brand of spring water recommended me to boil it before using . He said that it is safe for drinking , but NOT for brewing with .

Third, the plan you described is not a good one. If you let the boiled water sit around, you've essentially negated any benefit you achieved from boiling it, unless you can seal it in an air-tight environment. Regardless, you want to rehydrate your yeast in warm water, so you would have to reheat it anyways.

I already said that I would keep it in a sanitized emptied spring water Pet .

Finally, having read your prior thread, I'm still not convinced that you have an issue with infections. Your sanitation practices are fine, you should be more concerned about getting high quality ingredients and letting your beer sit long enough in both the fermenter and the bottle before passing judgment on whether it came out well.

I'm going to brew a new small Batch using some new DME which I recently bought from another manufacturer .

I left my previous Batch 3 Weeks in the Primary and then 3 Weeks in Bottles and at the End I had a liquid which was extremely sour !

So , I'm going to use some DME from another manufacturer to see if there would be any difference .

This time , I use bittering Hops , too .

Hector

 

[hector]

Still no reason not to just use the packet.

11.5 grams dry Yeast for only 1 Liter Wort !!!

Isn't it " Over-Pitching " ?!

Hector

 

[hector]

To haussparker :

My only question is, why bother to measure out 1 gram of yeast? Packets of yeast are $.50-$1 per packet put the whole packet in or even just half.

I don't live in the U.S. and it's very difficult here to get Yeast Packs . It is also impossible to order such things online .

I personally use distilled water for topping off or making starters etc

I've heard that distilled water is not suitable for making Starters because of lack of Minerals and Nutrients .


Hector

 

[jsweet]

I've heard that distilled water is not suitable for making Starters because of lack of Minerals and Nutrients .

I've never heard that, but even if it were the case, you're rehydrating, not making a starter. So in either case distilled water should be just fine.

 

[hector]

I've never heard that, but even if it were the case, you're rehydrating, not making a starter. So in either case distilled water should be just fine.

In general , it is the presence of minerals, or the “hardness” of the water, that has a greater impact on the hydrating yeast than anything else.

Basically, around 25+ppm mineral content is needed for the yeast to avoid any negative, reverse osmotic effects.

If the hydration water has no or very little hardness, then this creates a situation where the natural concentration of minerals

found inside the yeast’s own cell is now higher than in the surrounding liquid.

Since water always flows in the direction of the higher concentration of minerals, this creates a reverse osmotic effect and

It will keep flowing into the yeast until it ruptures the cell due to stress.

It is for this reason that using distilled water is actually a bad idea when hydrating yeast and is not recommended.

Hector

 

[jsweet]

Okay, I'm going to say that it is WEIRD that you are this worried about the exact perfect conditions for rehydrating yeast, to the point of using two separate types of water for top-off vs. rehydrating -- which is a level of obsession that I think very few people on this forum can top -- and yet you only have two pots.

I'm not sure where you are living -- Last Station is a novel and biopic about Leo Tolstoy, I take it in reference to his death in a train station at Astapovo/Lev Tostoy? If you're living up near Lipetsk, I suppose that explains both the difficulty in getting yeast, as well as possibly the pot shortage?

Sorry if that's the case that obtaining another pot is that big of a pain in the butt

 

[Shaneoco1981]

I once again suggest a my previous piece of advice. GET ANOTHER POT!

 

[jsweet]

So one option I suppose is you could add a bit of gypsum to the distilled water to achieve the mineral concentration you feel is necessary to prevent reverse osmosis from rupturing the yeast...

 

[hector]

Okay, I'm going to say that it is WEIRD that you are this worried about the exact perfect conditions for rehydrating yeast .

If you're living up near Lipetsk, I suppose that explains both the difficulty in getting yeast, as well as possibly the pot shortage?

As far as I know , Yeast makes the Beer . Therefore , it needs to have perfect Conditions to do its job well and with the least possible Stress .

By the way , you are completely wrong about my Location and there is no Pot shortage here !

Hector

 

[jsweet]

It was just a guess...

Anyway, buy another pot then. Seriously. Yeah, yeast makes the beer, but I've never heard of someone obsessing over the rehydration water... pitching rates, fermentation temps, etc., etc.... but this is a new one on me. The explanation of why distilled water is bad for rehydration, sounds totally plausible, and I believe you that it could make a difference. But if you're going to that much trouble, splurge on a pot.

 

[TTB-J]

As far as I know , Yeast makes the Beer . Therefore , it needs to have perfect Conditions to do its job well and with the least possible Stress .

By the way , you are completely wrong about my Location and there is no Pot shortage here !

Hector

Yes, yeast makes beer. No, it does not need to be in perfect conditions. Yeast rehydration takes a matter of minutes, and will not be affected by the type of water you use unless the stuff is positively radioactive.

 

[hector]

Yes, yeast makes beer. No, it does not need to be in perfect conditions. Yeast rehydration takes a matter of minutes, and will not be affected by the type of water you use unless the stuff is positively radioactive.

I wonder why understanding a natural physical Phenomenon which I explained in the Post #41 is so difficult !!!

I've read about it in many Articles and Homepages written by Beverage Experts .

They all recommended NOT to use distilled water for making Starters .

Hector

 

[hector]

it depends,it is hard to say.

What does it depend on ?!

Hector

 

[jsweet]

Yes, yeast makes beer. No, it does not need to be in perfect conditions. Yeast rehydration takes a matter of minutes, and will not be affected by the type of water you use unless the stuff is positively radioactive.

When I unleash the radioactive super-mutant yeast, no wort will stand in my way again! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[jsweet]

I have indeed been able to find (now that I look) a number of sources which have said that rehydrating yeast in distilled water is a Very Bad Thing. And the physical explanation does make sense. OTOH, there are some very well-respected sources which have never mentioned it. I wonder if anybody's actually tried it? It could be one of those things that somebody has reasoned out in their head (as I said, the physical explanation makes sense) but for one reason or other it doesn't work that way in practice?

Or maybe hector is dead-on and this could be a real problem.

In either case, the easiest solution for hector's issue is get another pot.

 

[BrewKnurd]

I have indeed been able to find (now that I look) a number of sources which have said that rehydrating yeast in distilled water is a Very Bad Thing. And the physical explanation does make sense. OTOH, there are some very well-respected sources which have never mentioned it. I wonder if anybody's actually tried it? It could be one of those things that somebody has reasoned out in their head (as I said, the physical explanation makes sense) but for one reason or other it doesn't work that way in practice?

Or maybe hector is dead-on and this could be a real problem.

In either case, the easiest solution for hector's issue is get another pot.

My guess is that its much like why you shouldn't drink distilled water. If you do enough of it, you can seriously screw up your electrolyte balances. If you drink a cup of it, no worries.

If i had to speculate (and that's all this is, speculation, so don't take it as anything else), the amount of stress you cause the yeast in a 20 minute rehydration in distilled water is probably negligible. You're going to chuck it in a beer which is full of all the minerals that distilled water lacks shortly anyways. If you leave it sitting there for hours, yeah, I would think you would cause some meaningful stress.

 

[TTB-J]

I wonder why understanding a natural physical Phenomenon which I explained in the Post #41 is so difficult !!!

I've read about it in many Articles and Homepages written by Beverage Experts .

They all recommended NOT to use distilled water for making Starters .

Hector

You're not making a starter, you're rehydrating. The physical process you're describing takes longer than 5-10 minutes to occur. In the short time it takes to rehydrate yeast, they will not likely undergo much, if any, stress. Regardless, they will soon be thrown into a nutrient rich environment and begin reproducing, which will reduce the impact of any stress the original yeast suffered in that short period before pitching anyways. You're talking about a physical process that theoretically could harm your yeast, I understand that well. I am telling you that, in practice, using distiller water to rehydrate yeast won't run your batch. Quit treating yeast like they are some ultra sensitive organism. They aren't. They are trained killers, they're cannibals, they have been eating sugar for thousands of years and they are getting preposterously good at it. Despite the many things you can do to injure yeast, they will, despite you, make beer out of your wort if you give them just a fighting chance at doing so.

Look, Hector, your last batch turned out bad because you didn't use hops. Your first batches turned out bad because you never let them completely ferment out and condition. You are being too anal retentive about your beer. Throw the stuff in a stupid pot, boil it, cool it, put yeast in it, dump it into a clean bucket and wait 3 weeks. It's that simple.

 

[jsweet]

So I'm wondering about the pitching rate now... Yes, Mr Malty's says 2 grams of yeast is sufficient for a gallon, but that calculator seems to be purely linear when it comes to dry yeast. I gotta figure there's a non-linearity at very small volumes. (I mean, if you were going to ferment 1 oz of beer, would you need only 30 mg of yeast? I guess maybe, but I'd start to get nervous pitching that little yeast into anything) That would also explain the low attenuation after 3 weeks (which I assume you are measuring with a hydrometer; I read most of one of your previous threads and never saw a mention of how you are checking the alcohol content). And it could explain how you'd be susceptible to infection, if there is so little yeast it can't take off.

I know yeast is scarce in your area, but perhaps it would be worth pitching, say, half a packet into a 1-gallon batch instead of a fifth of a packet. At that amount, overpitching is not a quality issue. REPEAT: At that amount, overpitching will NOT hurt the yeast or your beer. When people talk about off-flavors from overpitching, they are talking about really tremendous amounts of yeast. It won't happen by pitching 5-10g into a 1-gallon batch. So for you, overpitching is only an issue because of wasted yeast, but given you've already wasted a bunch of batches, maybe this experiment is worth doing.

I would:

1) Buy another pot if it bothers you
2) Mix up some ~1.040-1.050 wort WITH hops, boil it, cool it, and pitch at least a half packet of yeast.
3) Wait 3 weeks.
4) NO MATTER WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE OR TASTES LIKE, bottle it and wait another 3 weeks. I don't care if it looks like your cat crapped in it and tastes even worse, just freakin' bottle it. At this point, what's the worst that could happen, you STILL don't have beer?
5) After 3 weeks of conditioning in the bottle at room temperature, refrigerate it for 4-5 days.
6) Get back to us then.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Hector,

You do not need a precise amount of yeast. If you go over the amount that is fine. More than 1 gram will not harm your beer, it may actually make it ferment better.

Boil just a little more water in the pot that you are using for topping off your carboy, and pull that off into a sanitized bowl. Use that to rehydrate.

Or, just sprinkle the yeast onto the wort in the fermenter, and us a bit more than the 1 gram.

Make sure you are using sanitizer at every step for anything touching the wort or anything that is going to go into the fermenter!

 

[hector]

So I'm wondering about the pitching rate now...

I would:

1) Buy another pot if it bothers you
2) Mix up some ~1.040-1.050 wort WITH hops, boil it, cool it, and pitch at least a half packet of yeast.
3) Wait 3 weeks.
4) NO MATTER WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE OR TASTES LIKE, bottle it and wait another 3 weeks. I don't care if it looks like your cat crapped in it and tastes even worse, just freakin' bottle it. At this point, what's the worst that could happen, you STILL don't have beer?
5) After 3 weeks of conditioning in the bottle at room temperature, refrigerate it for 4-5 days.
6) Get back to us then.

Dear jsweet ,

My Batch Volume is 1 Liter ( 0.26 Gallon ) and by my last Batch the Yeast took off very well ( Lag time = 7 Hours ) and it was

fermenting vigorously for the first 3 days , although I used only 1 gram of dry Yeast .

I think that it's because the Yeast which I used is a fast fermenting Yeast . So , a small amount of it can do the Job well .

As I said before , I'm going to brew a new Batch using another brand of DME which I recently bought and I will use bittering Hops .

Today I tried to buy an extra Pot but didn't find any suitable for me . I must look for it in a shopping center far from Home in the City .

Hector

 

[jonmohno]

My guess is that its much like why you shouldn't drink distilled water. If you do enough of it, you can seriously screw up your electrolyte balances. If you drink a cup of it, no worries.

If i had to speculate (and that's all this is, speculation, so don't take it as anything else), the amount of stress you cause the yeast in a 20 minute rehydration in distilled water is probably negligible. You're going to chuck it in a beer which is full of all the minerals that distilled water lacks shortly anyways. If you leave it sitting there for hours, yeah, I would think you would cause some meaningful stress.

Your statement about distilled water is untrue.You dont just replentish your minerals from water it depends what you eat you get them from food also.Distilled water is very good for leaching out inorganic materials from the body also. Its valuable in detoxification.
Its just like using extract malt. You can use distilled for that and the yeast are still getting their nutrients for good fermentation through the malt extract the same way you get nutrients through variable foods you eat.

 

[BrewKnurd]

Your statement about distilled water is untrue.You dont just replentish your minerals from water it depends what you eat you get them from food also.Distilled water is very good for leaching out inorganic materials from the body also. Its valuable in detoxification.

This is off topic, so I'm going to respond once that that's it.

1) The world health organization and the dozens of studies they cite do not agree with you. You'll pardon me if I trust them over you. http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutdemineralized.pdf
2) Unless you are drinking water which contains inorganic materials, it will do just as good of a job in "leaching out inorganic materials."

Like I said, I'm not interested in a debate. You believe what you want. Science doesn't agree with you.

 

[jonmohno]

Given time science wont agree with itself either.

 

[Shaneoco1981]

You're not making a starter, you're rehydrating. The physical process you're describing takes longer than 5-10 minutes to occur. In the short time it takes to rehydrate yeast, they will not likely undergo much, if any, stress. Regardless, they will soon be thrown into a nutrient rich environment and begin reproducing, which will reduce the impact of any stress the original yeast suffered in that short period before pitching anyways. You're talking about a physical process that theoretically could harm your yeast, I understand that well. I am telling you that, in practice, using distiller water to rehydrate yeast won't run your batch. Quit treating yeast like they are some ultra sensitive organism. They aren't. They are trained killers, they're cannibals, they have been eating sugar for thousands of years and they are getting preposterously good at it. Despite the many things you can do to injure yeast, they will, despite you, make beer out of your wort if you give them just a fighting chance at doing so.

Look, Hector, your last batch turned out bad because you didn't use hops. Your first batches turned out bad because you never let them completely ferment out and condition. You are being too anal retentive about your beer. Throw the stuff in a stupid pot, boil it, cool it, put yeast in it, dump it into a clean bucket and wait 3 weeks. It's that simple.

LMAO! +1 Thank you for finally saying what needed to be said.