Is bottle conditioning necessary?

[JLem]

Another thought - since you seem to be finding these flaws only after bottling, you might be introducing too much oxygen in the bottling process. Oxidation definitely results in off-flavors (though I'm not sure about the off flavors you are describing), which do not dissipate with time (and in fact, may get even worse).

 

[PVH]

Has anyone ever brewed a batch, kegged one half and then bottled the other half?

Yes, I (and many others I'm sure) do this from time to time, usually with 10 gallon batches. I do it to free up keg space for beers I really want to keg for various reasons. I don't notice a difference, but I usually do this with bigger styles that would mask small differences. If there is a real difference, it's probably just because the bottled beer lasts longer than the kegged beer.

 

[sdufford]

I also have no means of controlling fermentation temperature in the bottles so if the off-flavor I'm experiencing is from fermentation in-the-bottle then I may be tasting difusel alcohols and esters from slightly hotter than ideal fermentation. This would help explain why some of the badness doesn't disappear after a mere month.

Another good point- what's a bit interesting to me is that people don't seem to stress fermentation temp when it comes to the bottle...maybe cuz it's so mild it doesn't really matter? Or because it would just be too difficult without a temp controller?

I wonder if a steady ~66 degrees bottle temp would make for a cleaner beer after 3 weeks...

 

[sdufford]

Another thought - since you seem to be finding these flaws only after bottling, you might be introducing too much oxygen in the bottling process. Oxidation definitely results in off-flavors (though I'm not sure about the off flavors you are describing), which do not dissipate with time (and in fact, may get even worse).

Any tips for keeping oxygen introduction to a minimum when bottling? I've always wondered about that, I hate having my bucket of beer exposed to the air as long as it takes to fill 50 bottles...

 

[Frodo]

The off flavors I get happen within days (if not hours) and don't fit the descriptions of oxidization that I've read (cardboard, sherry), so I don't believe that to be the case. Ideas?

Medicinal (almost quinine), alcoholic, fruity

I vote oxidation based on what's been said in both those cases. I too have an occasional "odd" taste that I'd call fruity, medicinal, ???. It's hard to pinpoint, but it has shown up in some/many of my bottle conditioned brews AFTER about 2 or 3 weeks of conditioning. This weird taste in every case didn't exist prior to that point in time (2 to 3 weeks + after bottling). I don't think it's a "green" taste, since it actually shows up after the bottles have aged to the point where they're fully conditioned. I'm guessing my bottling process/bottling wand oxidizes the beer and it doesn't show up until the yeast are done fermenting the priming sugar.

I just started kegging, and only have tasted one kegged batch, but that taste is absolutely not there even after 3 weeks in the keg. Granted that's only one beer, so I'm not for certain that my bottled beers that had the funky taste were oxidized; but I'd bet money on it.

edited...

 

[Frodo]

I wonder if a steady ~66 degrees bottle temp would make for a cleaner beer after 3 weeks...

It didn't matter in my case. The weird taste would show up even bottle conditioning at 66 to 68F; not to say it's the same taste as the OP is describing, but it could very well be - it seems to fit his description. My bottling wand always seemed to flow beer into the bottle too fast and I always worried about all the oxygen being available to the beer during bottling. And the taste only showed up after a couple weeks and would get worse with age.

 

[mixedbrewer]

Maybe the the bottle fermentation gives off different byproducts because of a lack of oxygen? The primary is full of oxygen, bottles not so much.

 

[MyNameIsPaul]

Just wanted to jump in and say that force carbonating is just that, carbonating. It does not make a difference in the "conditioning" of your beer. You'll just have carbonated "green" beer. Hell, you can carbonate any liquid in a corny (a big batch of KoolAid is delicious by the way)

The key for me to get over the whole conditioning process is to brew a lot. You'll eventually get to a point where you have beers stashed in cases in closets that will take a while to go through, and by the time you do, they could be months old and delicious.

 

[brewzombie]

Just wanted to jump in and say that force carbonating is just that, carbonating. It does not make a difference in the "conditioning" of your beer. You'll just have carbonated "green" beer. Hell, you can carbonate any liquid in a corny (a big batch of KoolAid is delicious by the way)

The key for me to get over the whole conditioning process is to brew a lot. You'll eventually get to a point where you have beers stashed in cases in closets that will take a while to go through, and by the time you do, they could be months old and delicious.

We were theorizing that the beer wasn't really green until we added priming sugar and restarted fermentation, which added some greenish notes.

 

[ksbrain]

There were posts earlier about StarSan as the bottling sanitizer.

I saw something a week or two ago suggesting possible ill effects of the air bubbles that are the foam of StarSan. No problem in the fermenter, but at packaging? Oh no!

Maybe the issue could be a combo of StarSan for bottling plus not having a bottling tree to drain the liquid before actually bottling?

Or maybe a dirty bottling tree? I had a buddy who was having off flavor issues until he realized that his bottling tree wasn't getting cleaned or sanitized and was definitely not sanitary.

 

[bovineblitz]

There were posts earlier about StarSan as the bottling sanitizer.

I saw something a week or two ago suggesting possible ill effects of the air bubbles that are the foam of StarSan. No problem in the fermenter, but at packaging? Oh no!

Maybe the issue could be a combo of StarSan for bottling plus not having a bottling tree to drain the liquid before actually bottling?

Or maybe a dirty bottling tree? I had a buddy who was having off flavor issues until he realized that his bottling tree wasn't getting cleaned or sanitized and was definitely not sanitary.

Wouldn't it get sanitized when you sanitize your bottles then hang them to drip dry on the bottling tree?

 

[user 19629]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
dzlater- The beer turns somewhat "green" again because of this renewed fermentation- any young fermentation will generate flavors that you don't want in the final product. Thus, the beer will taste green again until the yeast do their job and clean up after themselves, with time.

That makes sense
from How To Brew:
"When you add the priming sugar and bottle your beer, the yeast go through the same three stages of fermentation as the main batch, including the production of byproducts. If the beer is bottled early, i.e. 1 week old, then that small amount of yeast in the bottle has to do the double task of conditioning the priming byproducts as well as those from the main ferment. You could very well end up with an off-flavored batch."


http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-5.html

 

[brewzombie]

Any tips for keeping oxygen introduction to a minimum when bottling? I've always wondered about that, I hate having my bucket of beer exposed to the air as long as it takes to fill 50 bottles...

Could a campden tablet be added to the bottling bucket to prevent oxidation? I haven't done it, but if you use a low enough dose, it shouldn't hurt the yeast. Will the beer still carbonate with 1 tablet per 5 gallons?

 

[XXguy]

You're all overthinking this. Oxidation during bottling is a near non-existent issue.

 

[Frodo]

You're all overthinking this. Oxidation during bottling is a near non-existent issue.

How do you know that? It seems to me that it's an ideal situation for beer to become oxidized, during bottling, so if you have some sort of study you're referring to or whatnot I'd really be interested to read it.

 

[MyNameIsPaul]

You're all overthinking this. Oxidation during bottling is a near non-existent issue.

For Reals. Just drink the damn beer already and get brewing on another batch. Keep the lid on your bottling bucket and slowly leak some CO2 into it as you bottle if you want a protective layer from the oxygen and use oxygen-absorbing bottlecaps. More importantly, just drink the beer, admire your work, get drunk, lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[XXguy]

How do you know that? It seems to me that it's an ideal situation for beer to become oxidized, during bottling, so if you have some sort of study you're referring to or whatnot I'd really be interested to read it.

Emprical data aside ( I've tasted literally a thousand bottles of homebrewed beer bottled from buckets that did not have oxidation issues) - you could read here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/severe-effects-oxidation-196663/#post2287566

Or listen here:

http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/bs_hsa1-26-09.mp3

The title is Hot Side Aeration, but they talk about oxidation in many different forms. The biggest impact of any exposure to oxidation would seem to be in long-term stability of flavors.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Could a campden tablet be added to the bottling bucket to prevent oxidation?

It could, but that may well prevent bottle carbonation and conditioning, too. Plus you'd want to wait for the sulfur aromas and tastes to break down, which takes a week or two.

 

[Frodo]

Emprical data aside ( I've tasted literally a thousand bottles of homebrewed beer bottled from buckets that did not have oxidation issues) - you could read here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/severe-effects-oxidation-196663/#post2287566

Or listen here:

http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/bs_hsa1-26-09.mp3

The title is Hot Side Aeration, but they talk about oxidation in many different forms. The biggest impact of any exposure to oxidation would seem to be in long-term stability of flavors.

I am not disputing your personal experience. However the Brewstrong episode you cited talks almost exclusively about hot side aeration and only mentions that you still want to minimize aeration of beer during packaging (several times), but they don't specifically talk about the effects of aeration during packaging (i.e. bottling).

Their take home message after hearing the chat with Charlie Bamforth was that hot side aeration, and oxidation reactions, occur "upstream" during mashing, boiling, etc., but the effects of the oxidation is cleaned up by pitching healthy yeast and proper amount of yeast during the fermentation. It was an interesting discussion really. Charlie did not dispell hot side aeration as a myth as I've often heard people on HBT say; he said it exists but the yeast transform the effects of the oxidation during fermentation. He also stated that when brewing it is wise to try to minimize the amount of hot side aeration, so the yeast don't have too much to deal with. But they specifically note that it's not something to worry too much about.

They also specifically say that all beer will eventually stale from oxidation, but you can do things to slow down the staling such as being careful not to aerate the beer during packaging, and storing the beer cold as chemical reactions occur magnitudes quicker in hotter temperatures. Charlie stated for every 10C rise in temp any particular reaction will occur 2 to 3 times faster. Furthermore, they also spoke about Sierra Nevada's switch from twist off caps back to pry off caps because they were convinced that it made the product more stable; that it was more resistent to leakage of air into the bottles. Charlie also specifically stated that canned beer is more stable than bottled beer, because it is better sealed.

 

[jonmohno]

I am not disputing your personal experience. However the Brewstrong episode you cited talks almost exclusively about hot side aeration and only mentions that you still want to minimize aeration of beer during packaging (several times), but they don't specifically talk about the effects of aeration during packaging (i.e. bottling).

Their take home message after hearing the chat with Charlie Bamforth was that hot side aeration, and oxidation reactions, occur "upstream" during mashing, boiling, etc., but the effects of the oxidation is cleaned up by pitching healthy yeast and proper amount of yeast during the fermentation. It was an interesting discussion really. Charlie did not dispell hot side aeration as a myth as I've often heard people on HBT say; he said it exists but the yeast transform the effects of the oxidation during fermentation. He also stated that when brewing it is wise to try to minimize the amount of hot side aeration, so the yeast don't have too much to deal with. But they specifically note that it's not something to worry too much about.

They also specifically say that all beer will eventually stale from oxidation, but you can do things to slow down the staling such as being careful not to aerate the beer during packaging, and storing the beer cold as chemical reactions occur magnitudes quicker in hotter temperatures. Charlie stated for every 10C rise in temp any particular reaction will occur 2 to 3 times faster. Furthermore, they also spoke about Sierra Nevada's switch from twist off caps back to pry off caps because they were convinced that it made the product more stable; that it was more resistent to leakage of air into the bottles. Charlie also specifically stated that canned beer is more stable than bottled beer, because it is better sealed

If thats true i dont know why i disliked mt.dew so much since it moved from bottles to cans/plastic 30 yrs ago.

 

[Frodo]

If thats true i dont know why i disliked mt.dew so much since it moved from bottles to cans/plastic 30 yrs ago.

It's funny Charlie even mentioned in the discussion that when he was in Australia (I think?) he was served a beer in a can and even though he knew it was technically a better package the psychology of it made him think it was an inferior beer. Something along those lines anyway... and actually I prefer stuff out of glass bottles myself, soda included. Maybe it's just psychological? Who knows.

 

[XXguy]

They also specifically say that all beer will eventually stale from oxidation, but you can do things to slow down the staling such as being careful not to aerate the beer during packaging, and storing the beer cold as chemical reactions occur magnitudes quicker in hotter temperatures. Charlie stated for every 10C rise in temp any particular reaction will occur 2 to 3 times faster.

I think that's a fair summary of that Brewstrong episode. I'd try to point out that they made the claim that until handling & storage of the product was addressed/controlled, improved bottling processes would have very little impact.

Anyone who is worried about oxidation in their homebrew should listen to the episode for themselves. There's plenty of snippets we could cut & paste, but the overall theme was that while you should do what you can to minimize the introduction of oxygen into your beer, most beer is being consumed long before it has a chance to turn stale, and all the efforts you do take mean little compared to storage temperature and packaging.

 

[brewzombie]

From this discussion, my current thinking is that potential off-flavors caused by bottling (oxidation, infection, fermentation by-products, etc.) should NOT be particularly strong and should NOT last much longer than a month. It's a small amount of yeast activity (small amount of sugar), and a small risk of oxidation or infection. The yeast should be able to clean up any fermentation by-products to minimal levels by a month, if not sooner.

I'm now convinced that I have more dominant contributors to my off-flavor. In particular, I suspect chlorinated brew water (1-3 ppm) and potentially oxidized LME. I have switched to DME and will be brewing with campden tablets in the future to correct these issues. I'm hopeful that my off-flavor will be substantially reduced or even eliminated. Wish me luck!

 

[agroff383]

I noticed these same flavors with extract brews with steeping grains. A few of them I used LME and then switched to distilled water and dry malt extract and it was a massive improvement. Depeding on your water you have you may be adding excessive quantities of certain minerals contributing to your off flavors, and it is possible to oxidize beer when bottling by stirring the priming sugar too hard perhaps? i boil my priming solution and cool it and add to the bucket first and then when i rack it blends the priming solution well enough, i never have any carbonation problems. just a few thoughts.