Is "borrowing" wireless wrong?

[zeg]

I don't know if you skipped ahead, but we went further into it and my reasoning changed in later posts. That said, I'm not one to go back and edit my posts if I'm later proven wrong or something changes.

Ok, I skimmed the later posts but didn't read in great detail who was saying what. If we're agreeing now, great. I wasn't quoting you to argue with you so much as to comment on that general point.

 

[whoaru99]

Apparently it isn't where I live. I plan on clarifying for academic purposes, but let's just say I'm pretty familiar with the NYS penal law, and according to what I read, they refer to networks specifically.

As I'm sure you well know, getting the right answer has a lot to do with asking the right question. Or, perhaps getting the answer you want is a matter of asking the right question.

So, when you seek clarification, I'd appreciate looking at it from a couple aspects -

Connecting to the wi-fi
Accessing the network
Using the ISP/content

Point being, if one asks simply "is it illegal to connect to my neighbor's wi-fi ?" may provide a completely different answer than "is it illegal to connect to my neighbor's wi-fi to access my neighbor's network to use his ISP without permission?".

 

[Airborneguy]

Ok, I skimmed the later posts but didn't read in great detail who was saying what. If we're agreeing now, great. I wasn't quoting you to argue with you so much as to comment on that general point.

No arguing here either, just wanted to clarify. From what you wrote I could tell you hadn't read everything after.

 

[zeg]

The link seems to cite both federal law as an absolute no-no. but goes on to say even though it's probably illegal it's not really enforced unless you do something really bad with it and someone makes the effort to hunt you down.

It is true that it's generally not enforced very enthusiastically, and that the odds of even being investigated, let alone charged and prosecuted, are near zero. However, that doesn't make it legal.

I had a look through half a dozen or so of the laws cited in post #22, and to my reading (not formally trained, but fairly practiced reading laws), simply borrowing wifi is or might be illegal, depending on how various technically vague terms are interpreted.

 

[Airborneguy]

As I'm sure you well know, getting the right answer has a lot to do with asking the right question. Or, perhaps getting the answer you want is a matter of asking the right question.

So, when you seek clarification, I'd appreciate looking at it from a couple aspects -

Connecting to the wi-fi
Accessing the network
Using the ISP/content

Point being, if one asks simply "is it illegal to connect to my neighbor's wi-fi ?" may provide a completely different answer than "is it illegal to connect to my neighbor's wi-fi to access my neighbor's network to use his ISP without permission?".

According to NYS law, it would clearly be illegal to access the neighbor's network, I said that earlier. But as I read it, I wouldn't be illegal to use his wireless connection merely to access the internet, which is public. You're defining what you want to hear, which is what you seem to be slyly accusing me of in the first part of this post.

Quite frankly, I don't feel the need to clarify anything for you because the continued tone of your posts hasn't given me reason to care about your opinion of me or my morals. I'm going to inquire with my friend, but that's for my own information.

 

[Airborneguy]

To add another point...

Many commonly owned modern devices automatically connect to open networks that they detect. Upon who does the burden lie in this type of situation?

 

[zeg]

No arguing here either, just wanted to clarify. From what you wrote I could tell you hadn't read everything after.

I read enough to see that there was still some debate going on, but it can be hard to keep track of who's on which side that I usually just stick with the first decent quote that I agree/disagree with, even if it's a bit out of date. I guess my half-baked theory is that it starts to put my PoV in some sort of context (and I'm lazy).

 

[pickles]

I know zero about data stuff; but I thought that unless you have a DSL connection then wouldn't usage on your own network affect the neighbors available bandwidth? If so, why would it matter if you're using your own or the neighbors, in terms of bandwidth, etc. this assumes that the OP and neighbor both have Crapcom or whatever it was referred to as.

 

[zeg]

To add another point...

Many commonly owned modern devices automatically connect to open networks that they detect. Upon who does the burden lie in this type of situation?

"Knowingly" or "willfully" seem to be common sorts of terms to describe the kinds of access that are made illegal. I imagine these would prevent accidental access like this from being illegal (although I think that's an awful behavior for a device for a number of other reasons).

 

[zeg]

I know zero about data stuff; but I thought that unless you have a DSL connection then wouldn't usage on your own network affect the neighbors available bandwidth? If so, why would it matter if you're using your own or the neighbors, in terms of bandwidth, etc. this assumes that the OP and neighbor both have Crapcom or whatever it was referred to as.

A few reasons it might:

* Most ISPs monitor bandwidth, and many cap or charge fees if you exceed some amount. Your access through their connection would affect this.
* Your activities would appear to come from their IP address, possibly creating confusion (or legal issues if you were to do anything illegal),
* Even if your outbound bandwidth is shared, you may interfere with traffic on their local network (e.g., if they're streaming video from a local server to a laptop)

In reality, unless you're doing something illegal, there's almost never a real problem. In principle, it's possible, though.

 

[whoaru99]

According to NYS law, it would clearly be illegal to access the neighbor's network, I said that earlier. But as I read it, I wouldn't be illegal to use his wireless connection merely to access the internet, which is public. You're defining what you want to hear, which is what you seem to be slightly accusing me of in the first part of this post.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I just know how it can go in these regards. Ask a specific question and get a specific answer, which isn't necessarily the big picture answer.

What I want to hear is the big picture answer.

Seems odd to me, implausible really, that there is no implication for someone who does not hold an ISP account to use that ISP service without recourse. It's unauthorized use of the service.

 

[b-boy]

I think the idea of whether you're stealing from your neighbour or his internet provider is the real question here. in my opinion, the issue with the neighbour is the grey area, but you are definitely stealing services from the internet provider. I'm pretty sure that's Illegal. Like someone said previously, it's no different than climbing a pole and hooking up free cable.

 

[Airborneguy]

Ask a specific question and get a specific answer, which isn't necessarily the big picture answer.

Well here's your specific answer: yes, it is illegal in NYS to access another person's network.

 

[MalFet]

I think the idea of whether you're stealing from your neighbour or his internet provider is the real question here. in my opinion, the issue with the neighbour is the grey area, but you are definitely stealing services from the intent provider. I'm pretty sure that's Illegal. Like someone said previously, it's no different than climbing a pole and hooking up free cable.

There's an important difference between "illegal" and "against terms of service". If you don't have a contract with a wireless provider, you can't be violating their terms of service. Many broadband contracts require users to lock down their wifi, but that's an agreement between those two parties. Third parties aren't implicated.

 

[Airborneguy]

Like someone said previously, it's no different than climbing a pole and hooking up free cable.

Is it? Unless the internet provider makes it a term of service not to connect their service to a wireless router, then putting it out into the public realm is not wrong. Furthermore, that wouldn't be illegal anyway, it would be a breach of a civil contract, and the issue would be with the owner of the router, not the neighbor who hooks up to it.

Look at it this way: the NFL package. If a bar purchases the NFL package under license for 2 TV's (that's how it works, FYI), then hooks up a third at the other end of the bar, who is wrong? The patrons who sit in front of that TV or the bar owner?

 

[Airborneguy]

lol. This time Malfet, I'm not throwing out the usual "As always, Malfet said it better than I could have."

 

[b-boy]

There's an important difference between "illegal" and "against terms of service". If you don't have a contract with a wireless provider, you can't be violating their terms of service. Many broadband contracts require users to lock down their wifi, but that's an agreement between those two parties. Third parties aren't implicated.

But you are gaining access to the ISP's network infrastructure without their permission. if your neighbour lets you do it, that's between he and the ISP. If you do it without your neighbor's knowledge, that's between you and the ISP.

What's the difference with that vs. Hacking into it? You're an uninvited user.

 

[maxamuus]

Just wondering if you would all be accessories to the crime? I mean you are chatting with me on here about my crime while i am on the "hot" internet?

 

[whoaru99]

Look at it this way: the NFL package. If a bar purchases the NFL package under license for 2 TV's (that's how it works, FYI), then hooks up a third at the other end of the bar, who is wrong? The patrons who sit in front of that TV or the bar owner?

That's not the same at all. The patrons have permission of the owner to be there. That would be roughly akin to me letting you use my wi-fi when you came for a visit at my house.

 

[annasdadhockey]

Because you're not entitled to use anything that you don't have permission to use. Don't even have to invoke law here, it's just common sense. Oh wait...yeah...

What if your neighbor is grilling, and the smoke is drifting onto your property. Are you allowed to smell it, or do you need permission?

 

[MalFet]

But you are gaining access to their network infrastructure without their permission. if your neighbour lets you do it, that's between him and the ISP. If you do it without your neighbor's knowledge, that's between you and the ISP.

What's the difference with that vs. Hacking into it? You're an uninvited user.

That's not how these kinds of contracts work, though. The ISPs don't grant or deny permission to individual web surfers. They provide a pipeline to a designated contractee, and then that contractee makes it available or not as per the terms of his contract.

In the end, this should all be very simple. Those who want to communicate that they'd like to keep their wifi private can do so by not broadcasting their SSIDs or, better yet, requiring a password. Otherwise, we're talking about a radio signal here. If you're going to spray the world with electromagnetic noise, the default assumption should not be that you don't want anyone else to hear it.

 

[Airborneguy]

That's not the same at all. The patrons have permission of the owner to be there.

That would be akin to me letting you use my wi-fi when you came for a visit at my house.

You didn't follow the conversation. I was addressing a specific point. Isn't that your MO?

 

[whoaru99]

Yes, it is, so what is that point?

 

[b-boy]

That's not the same at all. The patrons have permission of the owner to be there.

That would be akin to me letting you use my wi-fi when you came for a visit at my house.

I agree. The analogy would be me tapping into the bar's feed and watching the game in my basement without the bar owner knowing about it. Wouldn't that be theft of services from DirecTV?

 

[whoaru99]

In the end, this should all be very simple. Those who want to communicate that they'd like to keep their wifi private can do so by not broadcasting their SSIDs or, better yet, requiring a password. Otherwise, we're talking about a radio signal here. If you're going to spray the world with electromagnetic noise, the default assumption should not be that you don't want anyone else to hear it.

So we try to legislate the victim rather than the offender?

I agree it should be very simple, but from a different aspect. Don't take what's not yours.

 

[Airborneguy]

Yes, it is, so what is that point?

You saw what I quoted when I wrote that statement. Stop playing games Mr. Sarcasm. Or, are we just giving you too much credit? Maybe you didn't understand...

 

[MalFet]

So we try to legislate the victim rather than the offender?

Who's legislating anything?

 

[annasdadhockey]

What if your neighbor was listening to his Sirius XM radio in his backyard, and you, unbeknownst to the neighbor, were standing in your backyard listening to it as it came into your backyard from his. Are you stealing from him? From Sirius XM?
I say yes!!! Close yer damn ears until you get permission!!!

 

[whoaru99]

Games? I'm serious as a heart attack. What was the point of it?

 

[Airborneguy]

I agree. The analogy would be me tapping into the bar's feed and watching the game in my basement without the bar owner knowing about it. Wouldn't that be theft of services from DirecTV?

Focus on your point about stealing from the pole, that was the point myself and Malfet were addressing. Once something is in the public sphere, the game changes. The pole is not public. It is owned and maintained by the utility. You are trespassing if you attempt to climb it. They own the wire, tap into it and you are guilty of criminal mischief and theft. A wireless signal is not legally equivalent to a signal carried by a wire owned by a clearly defined entity.