Is 60 -65% efficiency good enough?

[Ravenshead]

I've finally done enough AG batches to feel like I have my process and equipment stabilized enough to start working on efficiency.

I use a basic gravity-fed three-tier system with a 48 quart rectangular cooler w/ manifold for a mash-tun. I tend to mash at 158 for an hour followed by a 170 sparge. I collect about 8 gallons of wort and wind up with right about 5 gallons in the fermenter after a 1 hour boil.

For the last three brews I've been getting between 60 and 65 percent efficiency. For all three batches I had my LHBS mill my grains twice.

Is 60 to 65% good enough and I should just account for that in my formulations or are there any tricks I'm missing?

 

[Pappers_]

Yes, I think it's good enough. Having everything dialed in and consistent is more important than increasing your efficiency.

If you want to increase your efficiency, I'd consider getting your own mill.

 

[Benthic]

In my opinion, 25% efficiency is good enough--as long as your hitting the OG that you want.

Brian

 

[Golddiggie]

Sure, if you don't mind using way more grain than you might need to...

While dialing in a system is mostly about getting stable efficiency ratings, getting decent ratings means you're using more/most of the grain... If I was getting 60%, I'd start looking to see where I needed to improve things. Grain crush is one factor to work on (I have a mill now). Mashing with enough water, at the right temp, and long enough could be another. Sparging with enough water could be another.

If you're making BIG brews, then 60-65% could be all that your system will ever give you. But if you're mashing <15# of grain, I think you could get better. Not to say you will, but I'd start fine tuning to see what happens.

I would get the grain mill first, and start crushing your own. Start with the factory setting, running the grain through once. See what you get. If the same as you have been, try either smaller, or larger, crush sizes. Try conditioning the malt before crushing it. There's plenty of things to try if you want to improve the efficiency numbers.

If you are happy with what you're getting, though, then just continue on as you are. Maybe I'm spoiled since I've been getting 78-82% on every brew I've made (BIAB all grain)... I don't expect my first batch using a cooler MLT to be the same, but I'll work to get at least into the 70-75% (or better) range.

Consider this... Most of the recipe's published [that I've seen] assume either 70% or 75% efficiency. If that was difficult to get with a little dialing-in, they wouldn't publish that way...

 

[devilishprune]

You collect 8 gallons into your BK? Do you boil 3 gallons off in an hour? Can you explain that part a bit further, because it seems like you may be collecting too high of a volume of wort.

 

[CaptKiRkLeS]

For an hour boil couldn't you collect less wort, therefore bringing your efficency up? 3 gallons of boil off seems to be a lot. Maybe not if you have a very vigirous boil. But I agree...if you are hitting a consistent number, that is more important than having a higher efficency. For 5 gallon batches, the extra grain shouldn't break the bank

 

[Ravenshead]

You collect 8 gallons into your BK? Do you boil 3 gallons off in an hour? Can you explain that part a bit further, because it seems like you may be collecting too high of a volume of wort.

I use a big burner for my boil. It's a 100k BTU crayfish boiler along with a 15 gallon brew kettle. When you add that to the trub I lose to whirlfloc I lose 3 gallons easy.

 

[Golddiggie]

It's not a large cost per batch, but it will add up... I just ran the numbers... For my next brew, assuming I get 75% efficiency, I would need to use 3-1/2# more base malt if I was getting just 60%... Getting grain from LHBS is expensive enough (compared with buying bulk) that those few extra pounds per batch can add up rather fast...

Are you batch or fly sparging?

For me, it's more a matter of doing the best I can with what you have for ingredients. So, I want to extract as much as I can from the grain.

If you are boiling off 3 gallons in an hour, you might want to slow that down a bit... BTW, my burner is rated at 210k BTU... Doesn't mean I run it full blast...

 

[Ravenshead]

Sure, if you don't mind using way more grain than you might need to...

While dialing in a system is mostly about getting stable efficiency ratings, getting decent ratings means you're using more/most of the grain... If I was getting 60%, I'd start looking to see where I needed to improve things. Grain crush is one factor to work on (I have a mill now). Mashing with enough water, at the right temp, and long enough could be another. Sparging with enough water could be another.

If you're making BIG brews, then 60-65% could be all that your system will ever give you. But if you're mashing <15# of grain, I think you could get better. Not to say you will, but I'd start fine tuning to see what happens.

I would get the grain mill first, and start crushing your own. Start with the factory setting, running the grain through once. See what you get. If the same as you have been, try either smaller, or larger, crush sizes. Try conditioning the malt before crushing it. There's plenty of things to try if you want to improve the efficiency numbers.

If you are happy with what you're getting, though, then just continue on as you are. Maybe I'm spoiled since I've been getting 78-82% on every brew I've made (BIAB all grain)... I don't expect my first batch using a cooler MLT to be the same, but I'll work to get at least into the 70-75% (or better) range.

Consider this... Most of the recipe's published [that I've seen] assume either 70% or 75% efficiency. If that was difficult to get with a little dialing-in, they wouldn't publish that way...

The mill was the only thing I could think of to improve. My LHBS services 85% extract brewers so their mill is set for steeping not AG.

Thanks for reinforcing my thoughts.

 

[Ravenshead]

I fly spage just because that is how I was taught. I use a ghetto sparge arm made of a piece of copper pipe with holes drilled in it and a sheet of Al foil on top of the grain.

 

[Golddiggie]

The mill was the only thing I could think of to improve. My LHBS services 85% extract brewers so their mill is set for steeping not AG.

Thanks for reinforcing my thoughts.

WOW... Glad the LHBS I've used isn't like that... Although I bought most of my milled grain (once going all grain) from Farmhouse Brewing Supply (solid crush there... .039")...

Get a mill and try a few batches at different gap settings. You might find the default .039" works really well for you...

I learned mostly on my own... Read the Joy book before I started, and just dove right in... Read the threads by DeathBrewer about BIAB PM and AG brewing, went with those... Not brewed with anyone that fly sparges yet. I think the majority of new brewers batch sparge. As long as it does the job, shouldn't matter there.

 

[Ravenshead]

I kinda figured a mill was my next purchase/build.

I haven't tried batch sparging yet but fly is a lot easier than people make it sound. Once you set a flow rate you just leave it alone until your BK has the right amount of wort in it. If you put a gate valve or two in the loop it's really easy to set the rate.

 

[skyebrewing]

How about your water? I averaged 70-73% on mine batch sparging before I started adjusting my water chemistry. After figuring out the right ratio of tap to ro, salts to add, and a ph stabilizer, I jumped up to 85% without changing anything else. Granted, my tap water is close to sewer water so it may not effect you as greatly, but its worth checking..

 

[Randar]

"Good enough" is something defined for each person. If all it takes is a little malt conditioning and a $100 mill to go from 60-65% to 80-85%, I think you can see that you would make your money back in a decent amount of time.

I like getting the most out of the grain that I can, although I am perfectly happy to get 82-84% for most batches and call it a day. Sure, I could slow down my fly sparge and get a few extra % or do some recirculation or whatever, but there is a point of diminishing returns.

But what is "good enough" to you?

 

[Kaiser]

Ravenshead, how much wort do you leave behind in the kettle after transferring to the fermenter?

Kai

 

[Ravenshead]

I pulled a local H2O report and compared to Palmer's How to Brew analgram. Believe it or not, League City H2O is pretty good for brewing after you run it through a charcoal filter.

I don't leave anything but really thick trobe in the pot. The last two batches I probably lost almost a gallon and a half to trobe. With the Whirlfloc I get a really good cold break. Here's a picture of the last few inches from my last brew.

 

[indianaroller]

How about your water? I averaged 70-73% on mine batch sparging before I started adjusting my water chemistry. After figuring out the right ratio of tap to ro, salts to add, and a ph stabilizer, I jumped up to 85% without changing anything else. Granted, my tap water is close to sewer water so it may not effect you as greatly, but its worth checking..

Same here. Plus my beers taste twice as good.