IPA Recipe critique - strong fruit hops (Partial MAsh)

[bassballboy]

I'm considering an IPA for my next brew. I want it to be strong on the fruit notes, here's what I'm thinking:

5# Light DME
2.5# Maris Otter
.75# 40L
.25# Honey Malt
.25# Carapils

.75oz Mosaic 60 min
.75oz Citra 30 min
.50oz Mosaic 30 min
1oz Galaxy 10 min
.50oz Galaxy dry hop


I'm thinking the mosaic and citra will give a nice fruit blend flavor and then the galaxy for the strong fruit aroma... Let me know what you all think!

 

[bobbrews]

Carapils is unnecessary for an extract brew since it is already included in the extract. You're currently hovering around 8.5% Crystal 40. Add this to the 3% Honey malt, and you have a lot of sweetness coming from more than 12% of your fermentables if you also realize that most Light DME's also contain a small portion of crystal. Therefore, I would advise reducing the C40 by half and nixing the carapils completely. Add some simple table sugar or corn sugar to make up for the gravity drop, which will also allow your beer to attenuate a few points better.

Is this a full volume boil with 6 gal in the kettle and 5 gal in the primary? 3.5 total oz. recipe hops is not enough for an IPA. You will need about triple that amount, with the most focus on the dryhop and flameout/whirlpool.

And yes, all of the hops you selected are very fruity.

 

[Yooper]

Good advice on the grainbill, but you don't need to "triple" the hops. More would be better, but you've got an ok start.

I'd definitely change up the hopping times, though.

More like this:

.75oz Mosaic 60 min (or whatever it takes to get to 35-40 IBUs or so)

.75 oz Citra 15 min (I'd go with 1 ounce)
.50oz Mosaic 5 min (you could go with 1 ounce here)
1oz Galaxy 0 min
.50oz each Galaxy dry hop and citra

 

[bobbrews]

I did not say that he definitely needs triple the hops...

You will need about triple that amount, with the most focus on the dryhop and flameout/whirlpool.

Regardless, 3-4 oz. total hops spread around the boil and dryhop for a 5 gallon batch does not resemble an IPA... more like a weak APA.

 

[bassballboy]

Thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated. I've adjusted the recipe to the below. I'm doing a 3.5 gallon boil, and the DME is extra light - not sure if that changes things at all. Going with Yooper's schedule reduced the IBU's significantly by reducing the boil time of the hops, so I upped amounts. I'm new to IPA's, will having the citra at 15 minutes instead of 30 reduce the amount of flavor extracted? I know later = more aroma, not sure if I'll lose flavor though.

Version 2:

5# Light DME
3# Maris Otter
.25# 60L
.25# Honey Malt

1.25 oz Mosaic 60 min
1.00 oz Citra 15 min
1.00 oz Mosaic 5 min
1.00 oz Galaxy 0 min
0.50 oz Galaxy and Citra dry hop

 

[Yooper]

TI'm new to IPA's, will having the citra at 15 minutes instead of 30 reduce the amount of flavor extracted? I know later = more aroma, not sure if I'll lose flavor though.

Just the reverse- you get more flavor at 15 minutes than at 30 minutes. With a 30 minute addition, you get more bitterness since more hops oils are isomerized, so you get more flavor later in the boil because less of the volatile oils are isomerized and stay in the wort.

I like your new recipe! That looks good to me.

 

[bobbrews]

New schedule looks good. Though I would still emphasize greater importance on 0 min and dryhop additions. Perhaps boost the 0 min. slot by an additional 1 oz. and the dryhop by an additional 2 oz.

 

[bassballboy]

Thanks guys. I'll take the additional hops into consideration, I'd prefer this to be more in the low-middle bitter range of IPAs for personal taste.

I'll check back in a few months with how it goes

 

[bobbrews]

Dryhops do not add IBUs, nor do whirlpool additions added under 170 F.

 

[TNGabe]

Dryhops do not add IBUs, nor do whirlpool additions added under 170 F.

OT here, but this is far from being universally accepted as fact.

 

[bobbrews]

OT here, but this is far from being universally accepted as fact.

You can elaborate on that concept if you wish instead of simply disapproving it.

 

[TNGabe]

You can elaborate on that concept if you wish instead of simply disapproving it.

Try the google. Or pages 199-201 in Hops by Stan Hieronymous.

 

[bobbrews]

Try the google. Or pages 199-201 in Hops by Stan Hieronymous.

I was waiting for you to try since it was your challenge. It always helps when someone understands what they are saying before they flat out deny someone elses assertions.

It is widely accepted that hops' alpha acids do not isomerize when wort is below 170 F. This includes warm aroma steep/whirlpool hops and dryhops...

Now... explain why you think this is not the case

 

[TNGabe]

I was waiting for you to try since it was your challenge. It always helps when someone understands what they are saying before they flat out deny someone elses assertions.

It is widely accepted that hops' alpha acids do not isomerize when wort is below 170 F. This includes warm aroma steep/whirlpool hops and dryhops...

Now... explain why you think this is not the case

Read the book. I'm not going to argue with you about it. Have a nice day friend.

 

[passedpawn]

I was waiting for you to try since it was your challenge. It always helps when someone understands what they are saying before they flat out deny someone elses assertions.

It is widely accepted that hops' alpha acids do not isomerize when wort is below 170 F. This includes warm aroma steep/whirlpool hops and dryhops...

Now... explain why you think this is not the case

Stop it with the "challenges". You know I'm serious.

 

[harrydrez]

Read the book. I'm not going to argue with you about it. Have a nice day friend.

Generally speaking people who challenge conventions are the ones that need to provide evidence...

 

[bassballboy]

I'm thinking about this, and what if if I want to turn this into a super citrusy APA? How does this look in that case?

APA version:

5# Light DME
3# Maris Otter
.25# 60L
.25# Honey Malt

0.75 oz Mosaic 60 min
0.75 oz Citra 15 min
0.50 oz Mosaic 5 min
0.50 oz Galaxy 0 min
0.50 oz Galaxy and Citra dry hop

 

[Yooper]

I'm thinking about this, and what if if I want to turn this into a super citrusy APA? How does this look in that case?

APA version:

5# Light DME
3# Maris Otter
.25# 60L
.25# Honey Malt

0.75 oz Mosaic 60 min
0.75 oz Citra 15 min
0.50 oz Mosaic 5 min
0.50 oz Galaxy 0 min
0.50 oz Galaxy and Citra dry hop

It's fine. I do like the hops schedule in the last one better, though. But that one is ok as well, just less hoppy and bitter.

 

[bassballboy]

Stupid question, I've never done a 0 minute hop addition. Do you take the other hops out, then add the 0 minute and leave them in while cooling the wort?

 

[Yooper]

Stupid question, I've never done a 0 minute hop addition. Do you take the other hops out, then add the 0 minute and leave them in while cooling the wort?

No need to remove any hopsl. Cool the wort, and then you can strain or remove the hops or whatever you normally do once the wort is cool. Hops stay in during cooling.

 

[eric19312]

0 min additions are fantastic in hoppy ales. I've been taking the pot off, starting the chiller, then adding the hops when temp gets below 200. I continue running the chiller while stirring down to about 185. Then chiller off, stir every 5-10 min, but otherwise let it steep for 20-30 min. Then turn the chiller back on. Strain all the hops out at the end on way into fermentor.

Do a search on Hop Bursting and/or Hop Stand and read what the experts are doing.

 

[TNGabe]

0 min additions are fantastic in hoppy ales. I've been taking the pot off, starting the chiller, then adding the hops when temp gets below 200. I continue running the chiller while stirring down to about 185. Then chiller off, stir every 5-10 min, but otherwise let it steep for 20-30 min. Then turn the chiller back on. Strain all the hops out at the end on way into fermentor.

Do a search on Hop Bursting and/or Hop Stand and read what the experts are doing.

I call it the 'stirpool addition'.

 

[hydromaddicted]

I was waiting for you to try since it was your challenge. It always helps when someone understands what they are saying before they flat out deny someone elses assertions.

It is widely accepted that hops' alpha acids do not isomerize when wort is below 170 F. This includes warm aroma steep/whirlpool hops and dryhops...

Now... explain why you think this is not the case

I have the lab at Hop Union test my beers for ibu's and the most recent has 28 ibu's in the boil as tested before dry hopping. The lab analysis post dry hopping says its 60 ibu's so it must be the magic ibu fairy visiting while im dry hopping?

 

[frod1963]

I have the lab at Hop Union test my beers for ibu's and the most recent has 28 ibu's in the boil as tested before dry hopping. The lab analysis post dry hopping says its 60 ibu's so it must be the magic ibu fairy visiting while im dry hopping?

This is pretty interesting. I would like to try this out sometime.

 

[bobbrews]

I have the lab at Hop Union test my beers for ibu's and the most recent has 28 ibu's in the boil as tested before dry hopping. The lab analysis post dry hopping says its 60 ibu's so it must be the magic ibu fairy visiting while im dry hopping?

Did you account for any hops added during a long whirlpool steep above 170 F? Or did you just pull a sample directly after the boil and send it in for analysis?

Despite your belief that dryhops are magically adding IBUs, science also says that hop alpha acids do not isomerize above 170 F. Therefore, additions below this temperature do not contribute any IBUs. This has been scientifically tested hundreds of times.

So the results that one person received in a lab sample for testing IBUs in a particular wort would probably not be the same for everyone else. And testing IBUs in wort is not equivalent to testing IBUs in the finished beer; it changes slightly over time. I would've liked to have seen the IBU results for the finished beer with no dryhops vs. the same beer with dryhops.

 

[heywatchthis]

Some people have an issue separating the terms "IBUs" and "bitterness". My opinion based on research and overall brewing experience is that when adding hops at any point in time (boil, whirlpool, dry hop), you get what a lot of people call "perceived bitterness". I don't believe that you are actually changing the iso-alpha acid levels in the beer, but you are changing the taste/flavor/sensory reaction of how you perceive the beer.

To the point of the OP and the recipe, I agree with bobbrews that more hops are generally better for an IPA, especially if you're aiming to make something similar to most of the popular examples in the style (Pliny, Heady, Zombie Dust...), but you can make a perfectly drinkable beer without adding 10-14 ounces of hops in one beer. It just won't be that perfect combination of mouth coating resin, citrus, tropical goodness that the best commercial IPAs are. It depends on what you're going for and how much you're willing to spend to get there.

 

[bobbrews]

Some people have an issue separating the terms "IBUs" and "bitterness".

This is not the case here. It was clearly stated, beginning in posts #9 & 10, that the topic was focused on the bitterness achieved from IBUs and Hop Isomerization.

My opinion based on research and overall brewing experience is that when adding hops at any point in time (boil, whirlpool, dry hop), you get what a lot of people call "perceived bitterness".

My experience is the opposite in regard to late hops and dryhops. When you focus on hopbursting and huge dryhop additions, you're effectively making an IPA less bitter and harsh and more juicy/sweet/fruity. There comes a point where it can actually taste more like hop juice vs. beer.