Interpreting My Scoresheet Comments

[inkman15]

I recently got my scoresheets back from a local competition where I submitted an Imperial IPA and I'm trying to figure out where in my process I could improve. What I'm surprised at is that they are saying the hop flavor/aroma was a bit lacking for the style. As you can see in the recipe below, I was at about 103 IBU so I was a bit surprised at that comment.

Sheets are here: http://www.lvhb.org/mm_2014/scoresheets/0330.pdf

The issue I think I had was that my OG was at 1.084 versus 1.074 that Beersmith calls for. I'm thinking the extra booze covered up some of the hop flavors/aromas. I've been running into this issue with my beers lately. My OG is almost always higher than Beersmith calls for. Often dramatically.

I really like this beer and was (slightly) disappointed with the scores. They're not bad scores but I was hoping I'd at least crack 30. Any thoughts?


Recipe:

12 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 83.9%
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 7.0 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.0%
4.8 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.1 %

0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 22.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 22.0IBUs
0.25 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7.9IBUs
0.25 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7.9IBUs
0.75 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 15.3IBUs
0.75 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 15.3IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6.7IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6.3IBUs
0.75 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0IBUs
0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 15 -

2.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Day Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
1.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs

 

[stpug]

Ferment cooler to help keep the alcohol character more subdued.

Otherwise, figure out your actual efficiency on batches and use that instead of what you're using in beersmith. You should not have a 10 point spread from OG to brewsheet.

Last, 14% crystal malts in an IIPA is where your hop character got muddled. This style is typically 0-5% crystal malts, sometimes to the extent of some simple sugars to get the final ABV.

You brewsheet is someone ranking your beer to a specific style of beer based on their knowledge and emotion at the time of testing. I would not worry too much about it unless you had SPECIFICALLY brewed this beer for that particular style to the best of your abilities, which I don't believe you did. If you had, you would not have used so much crystal

 

[chewse]

Although judging notes/comments gives the appearance that it’s more of a "scientific" endeavor, in reality, everyone has different tastes. I bet if you submit your beer a second time to a different judge, you will probably get a completely different score. Unless you totally missed the mark for that beer style, I wouldn’t overhaul your recipe but instead tweak the recipe by adjusting hops levels and the grains you use. Get the beer to a point where you love it and then stick with the recipe.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

What water profile do you target when you brew?

Are you bottle conditioning or do you bottle from keg when you send brews to competitions?

What temp did you mash at?

Your 0 min additions were they flameout or hop stands?

What temp did you ferment at?

Was this a 5 gallon batch? If so I can already see that you could definitely use more dry-hops.

 

[inkman15]

Thanks, guys. I'm pretty good with controlling fermentation temperatures - have a chamber with a Johnson Controls A419 and kept this one in the low 60's. Interesting point on the caramel malts - I didn't realize that. Maybe try this again but back off the crystal by like 10%.

 

[inkman15]

What water profile do you target when you brew?

Are you bottle conditioning or do you bottle from keg when you send brews to competitions?

What temp did you mash at?

Your 0 min additions were they flameout or hop stands?

What temp did you ferment at?

Was this a 5 gallon batch? If so I can already see that you could definitely use more dry-hops.

-Bottle conditioned
-Mashed a bit low...around 149-151
-0 min additions were at flameout
-Fermented at 62 on the temp controller
-Yes, 5 gallon batch. What amounts would you use for your dry hop on this recipe?

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

I'm no BJCP judge, but I have had a few BJCP judges remark on my DIPAs concerning a few areas you may want to adapt into your brewing.

1. A good water profile is very important. Maybe start with RO or distilled water if you don't know your tap water numbers. I recommend a 2:1 ratio of sulfate to Chloride at a minimum. Low bicarb, neutral to low Na & Mg and enough Ca (100-150ppm) to keep your pH in check. If you need help with brewing water science check out the primer in the brew science section.

2. Bottle conditioning = more time to have hop aroma/flavor fade. Learn how to do a hop stand to get your IBUs instead of relying on mid & late boil hop additions. Those hop stands will amp up the aroma & flavor in your finished product.

3. For BIG hop nose on your beer shoot for at least 1oz per gallon of dry hops. I often do 2 or 2.5oz per gallon, and utilize multiple dry-hop additions. Look over the brewing notes on Russian River's Pliny the Elder recipe.

That should get you on your way to a big DIPA plus the other suggestions of bumping back the crystal.

 

[brettwasbtd]

All good advice given already. Do you know what order in the flight your beer was judged? That can definitely affect the outcome on hoppy styles (palette fatigue). I would agree decreasing crystal, probably drop the carapils all together to score well in competition.

 

[Foosier]

I would recommend checking out the water primer info in the Brew Science forum. The experts there note that having the right amount of sulfate in your beer will help to make the hops really pop. If you aren't making an adjustment for sulfates, this could partially explain why the hops aren't popping the way you would like.

 

[inkman15]

@FourSeasonAngler - thanks for all of the suggestions. I confess this was the first IPA I have ever brewed and I have not dabbled in water chemistry at all in my brewing yet. I'm going to look into that for my next batch of this along with the hop stand, upping the dry hop and reducing the crystal.

 

[Trox]

Have you adjusted Beersmith for your specific setup or are you still running off of the default settings? The big thing with Beersmith is to get the most out of it you really need to fine tune it to your particular setup or you will always be off.

 

[inkman15]

Trox - I put my specific equipment in there but yeah, still fine tuning for sure. I have a bunch of things working against me in that regard. I don't have a sight glass, so I usually just have to eyeball my boil volumes. I've determined that my system usually absorbs about 1 gallon in the mash, so I generally mash in with 1.25/lb, subtract 1 gallon from whatever number that is (i.e. - mash in 4 gallons, drain 3) and then sparge with whatever is needed to get me to 6.5 gallons. But again, the 6.5 gallon thing is eyeballed.

I need some equipment upgrades in the near future...

 

[weirdboy]

What was the FG on this? The scoresheets both mention the malt character as being particularly sweet, probably too sweet for the style. And as mentioned before, with 14% crystal malts, this is not a huge surprise, but the excessive malt can certainly mask the hops. You also didn't mention your mash temp above, but that is another thing to consider if you are running into this even after reducing your specialty malts. Lowering your mash temp will help break down the larger sugars which will then subsequently be fermented out by the yeast, reducing your FG and producing a drier beer.



The other notable comments from the national judge were about the "plastic" phenols. This is typically the aroma/flavor of chlorophenols which are (usually) caused by using tap water that contains chlorine and/or chloramine. Some people are particularly sensitive to this, and the threshold for detection of this aroma/flavor can come from even very small amounts of chlorine in your water.

You can typically remove/reduce the chlorine with a carbon filter, but this will NOT remove chloramine. There are various ways to do this. One is by adding a bit of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) to your (hot) mash/strike water and give it maybe 20-40 minutes to bind with the chloramine and drop out of solution. Another way is to use RO water to dilute the levels below the threshold for detection.

The big caveat to this, though, is that you can also get a plastic aroma/flavor from infection. So, first and foremost, make sure your sanitation is rock solid.

 

[inkman15]

@weirdboy

My numbers were:

OG: 1.084
FG: 1.018

My mash temperature was on the lower side (149-151) in an attempt to finish drier as you mentioned.

You have a point on the chlorine. I use my town's tap water and I have never had it profiled so I'm not sure what the mineral contents are. I had attributed the phenols comments to the beer being a higher ABV than I intended, but maybe you're on to something. As you said, people have different thresholds for different off flavors. I've never noticed a plastic flavor in my beers but that might be my palate. I have a very low threshold for Acetaldehyde for example.

 

[yourfavo]

If you hit a higher gravity that beersmith called for then your efficiency setting is off. Use the efficiency calculator on brewers friend and put it back into beer smith... it should give you a better idea of what the recipe should be and you can adjust for next time.

 

[flars]

-Bottle conditioned
-Mashed a bit low...around 149-151
-0 min additions were at flameout
-Fermented at 62 on the temp controller
-Yes, 5 gallon batch. What amounts would you use for your dry hop on this recipe?

What was your final gravity?
I would ferment at 66° to 68° with US-05. Below 65° US-05 throws a peachy flavor. The peach flavor can mask some of the malt flavors.

It is a personal preference of mine, but I would have pitched more yeast for the OG your beer achieved.

 

[weirdboy]

IMO 1.018 is way too high for a IIPA. I know the official style guidelines may disagree with me, but in my opinion you are pushing American Barleywine territory with that high of a gravity. Most commercial examples of IIPA that a judge may reference are going to be drier, the big exception being Dogfish Head 90 minute.

As a BJCP judge if I am personally judging a beer, I am OK with the gravity being a bit higher. But I know that if I'm entering a competition I will keep my IPAs on the dry side so the hops pop a bit more and so that judges who are comparing my beer to Pliny the Elder or Ruination in the back of their brain aren't overwhelmed by the malt.

 

[inkman15]

IMO 1.018 is way too high for a IIPA. I know the official style guidelines may disagree with me, but in my opinion you are pushing American Barleywine territory with that high of a gravity. Most commercial examples of IIPA that a judge may reference are going to be drier, the big exception being Dogfish Head 90 minute.

So - what recourse do I have then? Pull it off the yeast before it gets to 1.018? Isn't it bad to remove before FG has been reached?

 

[weirdboy]

No, I am saying the opposite. Reduce % of crystal malt, lower mash temp, etc. You certainly don't need a pound of carapils in that recipe. That really just adds more dextrines to your beer. You are getting plenty of dextrines from the bigger grain bill and the other pound of crystal malt.


Pulling your beer before it finishes fermenting is not going to accomplish anything, and would only result in a higher FG even if nothing else went wrong.

 

[inkman15]

No, I am saying the opposite. Reduce % of crystal malt, lower mash temp, etc. You certainly don't need a pound of carapils in that recipe.


Pulling your beer before it finishes fermenting is not going to accomplish anything, and would only result in a higher FG even if nothing else went wrong.

Got ya - yeah...definitely going to try this again with maybe half the crystal and carapils. And I'll do the hop stand/enhanced dry hopping too.

 

[weirdboy]

The other comment I saw earlier in the thread about order can also be a big factor in the IPA category. If you are later in the flight, it is somewhat likely the judges are suffering a bit from palate fatigue, which means your beer needs even more hop aroma & flavor in order for them to taste it. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that Category 14 flights are usually so big in a typical competition that they end up splitting the flights among multiple groups of judges, who then end up doing a mini-BOS, where they will revisit all the best beers from each group. But even then, your beer has to get to the mini-BOS. So at the very least, you need a beer with no technical flaws and that does a good job of expressing the style.

 

[inkman15]

That's a good point too. In this competition, there were about 50 IPA's. I have no idea where in the order mine ended up.

 

[weirdboy]

If there were 50 entries, it was probably split up into 4 groups of judges. Maybe 5. I have occasionally seen a group judge 20+ beers in a flight, but if it was organized reasonably well that probably didn't happen.

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

I'd say throw the first judge's score sheet out entirely. Judge writes like a 4 year old, and you can barely read his comments. Get the guy a computer or something (yea I know he probably wrote fast and did a hundred of them). What feedback that was legible wasn't really that useful.

2nd judge describes everything being said here, and the fact that he complimented it as a good beer, just off for the style I would take as really encouraging. His feed back is actually actionable and you could use it to refine your beer.

I have no experience what so ever in beer competition.

 

[inkman15]

I'd say throw the first judge's score sheet out entirely. Judge writes like a 4 year old, and you can barely read his comments. Get the guy a computer or something (yea I know he probably wrote fast and did a hundred of them). What feedback that was legible wasn't really that useful.

2nd judge describes everything being said here, and the fact that he complimented it as a good beer, just off for the style I would take as really encouraging. His feed back is actually actionable and you could use it to refine your beer.

I have no experience what so ever in this category.

Haha - I was definitely encouraged by his comment. The thing I always have to remind myself is that judging beers is based on how well it fits the criteria, not necessarily how much one enjoys a particular beer.

 

[stpug]

Haha - I was definitely encouraged by his comment. The thing I always have to remind myself is that judging beers is based on how well it fits the criteria, not necessarily how much one enjoys a particular beer.

The thing I always have to remind myself is that judging beers is based on how well the judge feels it fits the criteria based on their understanding and biases of that category, not necessarily how much one enjoys a particular beer or how good the beer actually is.

 

[aeviaanah]

The issue I think I had was that my OG was at 1.084 versus 1.074 that Beersmith calls for. I'm thinking the extra booze covered up some of the hop flavors/aromas. I've been running into this issue with my beers lately. My OG is almost always higher than Beersmith calls for. Often dramatically.

Inkman! Whattup bro?? Looks like im primed on this beer already. Ill try to forget the comments and judge it for myself.

I would definitely try to fix the OG issue. Have you learned to measure preboil gravity and calculate to expected postboil? If you have a good idea of your boil off rate, this can help you tremendously. For example:

Say your batch is 5 gallons of 1.074. Anytime in your process, postboil or preboil you can calculate how many "points" you have, basically amount of total sugar. So 5*74=370pts. (remember this for later).

So say you are finished mashing (or adding extract) and you've added your water to get to desired preboil. Lets say hypothetically 6 gallons (cuz you plan on losing 1 gallon during the boil). You can take your 370pts and convert to what that would be at 6 gallons. Just divide 370pts by 6gal. 370/6=61pts. So if you are at 1.061 at preboil and you know your boil off will work out you can bet you will be at 1.074 after you lose a gallon.

Knowing where you are at at preboil can help make the right decisions at that time. Adding water or more sugar to raise or lower the amount of pts.


For now on try to measure your water additions as accurate as possible. This is one of the most important variables to fine tuning your system (in

If you hit a higher gravity that beersmith called for then your efficiency setting is off. Use the efficiency calculator on brewers friend and put it back into beer smith... it should give you a better idea of what the recipe should be and you can adjust for next time.

Can be efficiency or how well one is measuring volumes.

 

[inkman15]

Can be efficiency or how well one is measuring volumes.

Well - if I use that Brewer's Friend calculator, I'm apparently at 101% efficiency haha.

But hey, just wait around until Friday and you can tell me exactly what you think about this beer...

 

[aeviaanah]

Well - if I use that Brewer's Friend calculator, I'm apparently at 101% efficiency haha.

But hey, just wait around until Friday and you can tell me exactly what you think about this beer...

Ive edited the above post. Take a look.

Man at 101 your creating sugar. Keep that up and you can start selling your extra sugar to your fellow homebrewers

 

[inkman15]

Ive edited the above post. Take a look.

Man at 101 your creating sugar. Keep that up and you can start selling your extra sugar to your fellow homebrewers

That's very useful info above. I've only taken pre-boil gravity once or twice in the past and I will start doing it now. Was actually planning on doing a very simple test batch tomorrow in order to see if this one fermenter I have is still viable after a possible infection I recently had (sounds silly, probably...but would rather try something with $8 or so worth of grains rather than throw out the Better Bottle).

So, I can do the pre-boil gravity exercise this go around as well. Fingers crossed on the fermenter...