Interesting review on the Toyota Prius.

[BlindLemonLars]

Say that again when gas hits $6 a gallon....

At the rate we're going, that should be about mid-July.

 

[kornkob]

I've ridden in a couple Prius' (or is it Priui?) and I didn't get the same impression that Clarkson did. Seemed like pretty typical Toyota quality to me. Acceleration, comfort and handling all seems about what I'd expect out of a car that size. As for the 'look'--- *shrug* they don't look that different to me than any number of other cars out there. It's got the same pointy nose as the Ford Focus and the same weirdly flattened back end as the Honda CRX-- I have no strong feelings either way.

And all 3 of the Prius owners I've met haven't been in the least bit smug, self righteous or trying to convert anyone to their choices.

Now that's not to say I haven't seen news bits or read articles with smug owners of the Prius, but let's be honest: the kinds of people who the press interview are going to be the most extreme examples of owners and the are going to use the most dramatic quotes from those people. One shouldn't think of those people as being representative of all owners any more than you should think that all homebrewers are like that Marine that was in the forums some time back telling everyone the *right* way to do things and making threats.

It's a car. It's a purchase that is of questionable fiscal intelligence. Getting angry at those people is no different than getting angry at people who don't pull their pants up all the way or people who wear a bluetooth headset on their ear: what the fark difference does it make to your life? None-- so why are you letting some other guy's decision bother you?

Getting angry at people who make different choices than you do is just silly.


And engaging in dangerous driving behavior and putting people's lives at risk because you don't like their car is irresponsible and criminal.

 

[EvilTOJ]

Yea but kornkob, I hate people that wear those stupid bluetooth headsets in their ears all the time! They look stupid and pretentious. I mean really, who's so important that they get phone calls ALL the day at random unless you're a realtor or a lawyer?

So people don't like the Prius. Big deal. They aren't ever advertized like a vette or an SUV. They're newfangled economy cars. That is all.

 

[kornkob]

Yea but kornkob, I hate people that wear those stupid bluetooth headsets in their ears all the time! They look stupid and pretentious. I mean really, who's so important that they get phone calls ALL the day at random unless you're a realtor or a lawyer?

*shrug* it isn't MY ear so what do I care. I think that facial piercing looks stupid but that doesn't make me 'hate' anyone who has it. Again--- not my face so why would it bother me.


Some people dislike men with long hair-- I still get that from people from time to time. Some people think facial hair makes a man look 'dishonest'. Nonetheless I'll keep my facial hair and ponytail and anyone who 'hates' me for it can kiss my shiny metal ass.

 

[BlindLemonLars]

I hate people that wear those stupid bluetooth headsets in their ears all the time!

If they're in their car, they damn well better be wearing one! In Los Angeles, EVERY driver has got a phone in their hand, swerving all over the place and paying no attention to the road. Starting next month, they will start ticketing people not using a headset or hands-free system, and not a minute too soon.

For people walking around, I agree...it looks stupid. Still, people have every right to look stupid. Why should it bother you?

They aren't ever advertized like a vette or an SUV. They're newfangled economy cars. That is all.

They don't have to advertise them. In SoCal, there is a six month wait to purchase a new Honda or Toyota hybrid, and a $5000 "dealer charge" on top of the sticker price. They can't make them fast enough.

 

[Laurel]

When 90% of people who own priui drive around at 10 under the speed limit and come to a stop before making a right hand turn when they have the right of way, and can't be bothered to accelerate at a normal rate, it affects me. It seems that MOST people who drive them(at least around here) don't give a **** when they get wherever they're going, nor do they pay attention to anything around them.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. I don't cut in front of them and then slam on my brakes(I'd win), I merely get in front of them(which isn't difficult considering how slowly they're driving) using the generous gap between them and the car in front of them that they've provided.

I honestly don't see the point of "playing the gas mileage game" in accelerating super slowly and other things. It takes the joy out of driving and really doesn't make that much difference.

 

[Laurel]

They don't have to advertise them. In SoCal, there is a six month wait to purchase a new Honda or Toyota hybrid, and a $5000 "dealer charge" on top of the sticker price. They can't make them fast enough.

They can make them fast enough. This is marketing. If there's less supply than there is demand, then the product gets hyped and people think it's special. GM's doing the same thing with the Buick Enclave. Intentionally stifling production is one of the best things you can do for interest of a car and sales.

 

[kornkob]

Frankly, the few minutes people save zipping through traffic never made much sense to me. In fact, on more than one occasion I've actually beaten or arrived at the same time as someone when I drove the 'slow and steady' method I always use and they used the 'zip in and out of traffic and always try to get going faster' method. Yeah-- that's anecdotal and thus not really a 'fact' but I personally have no problem taking my time getting where I'm going. Honestly, I find it hard to believe people's lives are made richer by filling it so full that the extra 7 minutes makes a difference.

I honestly don't see the point of "playing the gas mileage game" in accelerating super slowly and other things. It takes the joy out of driving and really doesn't make that much difference.

there are 2 points to be made with this:

a) the 'joy' of driving is something many people don't experience most of the time. For example: once in a while on back country roads I like to pull out the stops and roar around in the Passat we have or even in my little Mazda. But most of the time driving is a convenient conveyance. If I could afford to have someone drive me, I would.

b) There is a big difference in gas mileage when you do slow acceleration and avoid deceleration, especially in hybrids that scavenge energy from braking. It is well documented and nigh indisputable that how you drive has a significant impact on fuel consumption (and wear and tear).

 

[BlindLemonLars]

They can make them fast enough.

It's an expression. If you prefer, substitute "selling like hotcakes," or "flying off the shelves."

 

[Laurel]

It's an expression. If you prefer, substitute "selling like hotcakes," or "flying off the shelves."

Yes, but it's incorrect. Toyota CAN make the fast enough, they've just chosen not to.

 

[Laurel]

Frankly, the few minutes people save zipping through traffic never made much sense to me. In fact, on more than one occasion I've actually beaten or arrived at the same time as someone when I drove the 'slow and steady' method I always use and they used the 'zip in and out of traffic and always try to get going faster' method. Yeah-- that's anecdotal and thus not really a 'fact' but I personally have no problem taking my time getting where I'm going. Honestly, I find it hard to believe people's lives are made richer by filling it so full that the extra 7 minutes makes a difference.



there are 2 points to be made with this:

a) the 'joy' of driving is something many people don't experience most of the time. For example: once in a while on back country roads I like to pull out the stops and roar around in the Passat we have or even in my little Mazda. But most of the time driving is a convenient conveyance. If I could afford to have someone drive me, I would.

b) There is a big difference in gas mileage when you do slow acceleration and avoid deceleration, especially in hybrids that scavenge energy from braking. It is well documented and nigh indisputable that how you drive has a significant impact on fuel consumption (and wear and tear).

The difference in accelerating to 20 in 70 feet and accelerating to the posted speed limit(lets say 35) in 70 feet isn't gigantic. I'm not saying "floor it" every time you get a green light, but for the love of god, don't drive as slowly as possible!

When I'm driving along a road at the posted speed limit and have to hit my brakes because I come upon a prius driver that can't be bothered to go the speed limit, it hurts my mileage and slows me down. I'm not asking prius drivers to drive like racecar drivers, but it would be nice if the vast majority of them drove like regular people. My point is that the vast majority of them (at least in my part of the country) don't.

And just because you don't care when you get places doesn't mean that you need to impose your choice upon other people. Either drive the speed limit, or pull over and let all of the cars that you're holding up to pass you, and continue wasting your time. If it's 7 minutes in my car being frustrated by my car driving slowly, or 7 minutes relaxing, feeding my fish, checking my email or making dinner, I'd pick the 7 minutes choosing what I want to do over the 7 minutes waiting behind the prius.

 

[dirtymike1]

The difference in accelerating to 20 in 70 feet and accelerating to the posted speed limit(lets say 35) in 70 feet isn't gigantic. I'm not saying "floor it" every time you get a green light, but for the love of god, don't drive as slowly as possible!

When I'm driving along a road at the posted speed limit and have to hit my brakes because I come upon a prius driver that can't be bothered to go the speed limit, it hurts my mileage and slows me down. I'm not asking prius drivers to drive like racecar drivers, but it would be nice if the vast majority of them drove like regular people. My point is that the vast majority of them (at least in my part of the country) don't.

And just because you don't care when you get places doesn't mean that you need to impose your choice upon other people. Either drive the speed limit, or pull over and let all of the cars that you're holding up to pass you, and continue wasting your time. If it's 7 minutes in my car being frustrated by my car driving slowly, or 7 minutes relaxing, feeding my fish, checking my email or making dinner, I'd pick the 7 minutes choosing what I want to do over the 7 minutes waiting behind the prius.

Well I can argee with you. I drive a BMW thats got a good bit of bolt on goodies I DO NOT speed recklessly around town, but for the love of god, all I ask is for people to do the speed limit. My drive to work is done on all 35 mph roads, but every morning I get stuck behoind people that insist on doing no more then 28. Then when they see a cop, they slow down to 20!!!!

I guess that is one good thing though, here cops will give you a ticket for going UNDER the speed limit. lI don't mean 34 in a 35, but to the people that are doing ~25 in a 35. We also have a huge amunt of "runners" because there are so many illegals here as well. But I digress...

No matter what you drive, you can be just as dangerous gonig to slow as you can gonig to fast

 

[kornkob]

Whereas I've not witnessed any specific cars driving below the speed limit on a regular basis. Purely anecdotal so I can't say its not the case.

If anything I've seen more cars following too close and causing problems with traffic when they have to slam on their breaks when traffic changes.

However, it seems to me that I have no particular anger toward to any particular car style (or their drivers) so perhaps your perception is skewed by that. Since the prius is a clearly identifiable car that you have a particular loathing for you are more inclined to notice when one is causing a problem. *shrug* I dunno.

the single most common cause (in my anecdotal experience) for slow traffic: a cop driving 2 miles under the speed limit.

 

[dirtymike1]

Whereas I've not witnessed any specific cars driving below the speed limit on a regular basis.

If anything I've seen more SUVs following too close and causing problems with traffic when they have to slam on their breaks when traffic changes.

Please come to the DC metro area then sir!!! You will never want to drive again after a week here...

As for the SUV drivers, most of them just don't realize that they're driving a 3 ton peice of metal and think that its just like driving a Honda Civic.

I've owned probably 10 cars so far in my life, I go through them like beer, and they've ranged in all shapes and sizes. But when I owned trucks or SUV's I KNEW what I wa getting behind the wheel of. I could zip through town in my 86 200sx (man I miss that car...) but would never dare to do it in my 84 K-5 blazer.

It boils down to this, I don't expect everyone to be a race car driver, but you damn well need to know the limits of what you drive.

 

[BlindLemonLars]

When I'm driving along a road at the posted speed limit and have to hit my brakes because I come upon a prius driver that can't be bothered to go the speed limit, it hurts my mileage and slows me down. I'm not asking prius drivers to drive like racecar drivers, but it would be nice if the vast majority of them drove like regular people. My point is that the vast majority of them (at least in my part of the country) don't.

I know Seattle pretty well...where exactly do you live? I've never seen a part of town that is both jammed with hybrids, and only has single lane roads where you can't pass them.

I'm in what could be considered the Prius capital of the USA...they are absolutely everywhere. Their drivers don't go any slower than anybody else on the road...speed is dictated by traffic volume. I've only seen "hypermiling" on TV, never on the streets.

The very notion that hybrid drivers are creating hardships for Corvette drivers is profoundly ridiculous.

 

[cd2448]

They can make them fast enough. This is marketing. If there's less supply than there is demand, then the product gets hyped and people think it's special. GM's doing the same thing with the Buick Enclave. Intentionally stifling production is one of the best things you can do for interest of a car and sales.

Not sure that i buy that. I'll wager a dollar on it not working for the buick enclave, that's for sure. You have to have a bit of demand for it to work - gas prices will drive up demand for hybrids, whatever we might think about the people that drive them. Heh, I live in jersey, no-one (except me) knows how to drive anyway.

And all this talk of diesels - there was something on TV this morning that in CT diesel is now over $5 a gallon. Are people factoring that in when they are giving diesels the mad props?

 

[kornkob]

Another interesting factiod: perhaps people who are pissed off about what other people wear in their ears or what kinds of cars they are driving are actually losing money at the same time.

Your Friends Say: Go for a Drive to Chill Out
Experts Say: Stress Reduces Your Fuel Economy by 50 Percent
"Mythbusters" co-host Adam Savage has made a living debunking gas-saving myths on his popular Discovery channel show. The only thing he's found that really saves gas? Relaxing. In an experiment that will air in an upcoming show, the "Mythbusters" team found that people who drive while they're angry use 50 percent more gas than people who are relaxed.
"The difference was absolutely astonishing," Savage said. "You just use a lot more gas [when you're angry]. That has more of an effect on your fuel economy than any other single thing."




http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/PainAtThePump/Story?id=5038652&page=3

 

[MrFebtober]

Laurel brings up a good point. It feels like a lot of the "hyper-milers" out there are kind a passing the buck. They drive really slow and always seem to be inconveniencing the rest of traffic. The slower they go, the more people behind them have to put on the brakes, move around them, and get back up to normal speed. so, the more fuel they save, the more fuel everyone around them has to use. By this logic they really aren't saving the planet at all, though i guess they are saving themselves money.

On a personal note, I actually tried maximizing my fuel economy for a whole tank of gas a few weeks back. I drove about 10 mph slower on the highway (which put me squarely at the 55mph speed limit), accelerated slowly and shut of the engine at known, long traffic lights. My economy for that tank ended up being 1 mpg less than I usually average (23.5 vs. 24.5 mpg in WRX wagon). I think it was worse because as a slow motorist I ended up hitting more traffic lights and more traffic that I usually avoid. Also, I suspect my car may be geared to operate more efficiently at 65 than 55. On top of all that, and more importantly, I just didn't enjoy the driving experience; it was stressful trying to maximize economy and being passed by so many cars all the time. I'm not some speed junky but there are sections in my commute that allow for some spirited driving and I've come ot rely on that as stress relief from the daily grind.

 

[BlindLemonLars]

Whereas I've not witnessed any specific cars driving below the speed limit on a regular basis.

It happens, but it's generally an elderly person who is not comfortable driving fast. Hey, as long as they know to stay in the right lane, that's fine.

Of course the other example is the one you pointed out...the presence of a cop car will slow things right down! Otherwise, virtually everybody goes just as fast as physically possible...Prius drivers included.

 

[kornkob]

It happens, but it's generally an elderly person who is not comfortable driving fast. Hey, as long as they know to stay in the right lane, that's fine.

Of course the other example is the one you pointed out...the presence of a cop car will slow things right down! Otherwise, virtually everybody goes just as fast as physically possible...Prius drivers included.

Actually I have to amend my statement: recently the most common thing I've seen is people driving too slow while talking on their cell phones.

Personally, I carry a phone for MY convenience, not everyone else's. I answer it when I'm good an ready-- which is typically after I get to where I'm going.

But there are people out there that drive too slow, or too fast, or get all aggressive when they are around people who don't drive like they do. They come in all shapes and sizes. Most people think they are great drivers (even ones who have been in accidents in which they rear ended someone else) and rarely does someone admit 'yeah-- I'm part of the problem'.

Rarely, however, have I been convinced that statements about 'all drivers of this sort do these horrible things' are even remotely accurate. Very seldom are people able to produce any sort of actual data to support their opinion, largely based on a few anecdotal circumstances (and typically on the anecdote of a few others as well). In fact, I've actually heard people blame their pet peeve driver for whatever traffic problem they were experiencing, without actually being able to see any evidence at all that their pet peeve was even remotely the problem.

 

[dirtymike1]

Laurel brings up a good point. It feels like a lot of the "hyper-milers" out there are kind a passing the buck. They drive really slow and always seem to be inconveniencing the rest of traffic. The slower they go, the more people behind them have to put on the brakes, move around them, and get back up to normal speed. so, the more fuel they save, the more fuel everyone around them has to use. By this logic they really aren't saving the planet at all, though i guess they are saving themselves money.

On a personal note, I actually tried maximizing my fuel economy for a whole tank of gas a few weeks back. I drove about 10 mph slower on the highway (which put me squarely at the 55mph speed limit), accelerated slowly and shut of the engine at known, long traffic lights. My economy for that tank ended up being 1 mpg less than I usually average (23.5 vs. 24.5 mpg in WRX wagon). I think it was worse because as a slow motorist I ended up hitting more traffic lights and more traffic that I usually avoid. Also, I suspect my car may be geared to operate more efficiently at 65 than 55. On top of all that, and more importantly, I just didn't enjoy the driving experience; it was stressful trying to maximize economy and being passed by so many cars all the time. I'm not some speed junky but there are sections in my commute that allow for some spirited driving and I've come ot rely on that as stress relief from the daily grind.

Cars are programmed (the ECU) to have the fuel map run from rich to lean. At low RMP's you car WILL use more gas if you try to keep the rev's low. They try to take the most advantage of the cam shaft profile in your car. This means that your car is geared and engineered to run at a "peak" zone in the powerband. This is why you lost that 1 mpg. There is always a spot where your car will get the best fuel economy. And yes cars today are geared to run at 65 on the highway.

 

[Laurel]

I live in Mountlake Terrace but commute through Lake Forest Park, and Wedgewood to get to school and back. The vast majority of the roads that I drive on are single lane, as I take them to avoid traffic.

Prius drivers aren't the only bad ones on the road, and you'll note that I never said that. In fact, many bad drivers have camrys. While a bad driver(be it not paying attention, not giving a **** about putting door dings into other cars, or driving slowly), doesn't always driver a particular type of vehicle, the chances that it is a prius or camry(camry more often) are generally higher than any other type of vehicle. I was a delivery driver for a few months and to keep myself entertained while I was on deliveries I'd keep tallies in my head.

 

[brauhaus]

anyone who 'hates' me for it can kiss my shiny metal ass.

i so knew you were a robot!

by the way, i was considering a Honda Civic Hybrid for the increase in gas mileage... I have a 32 mile commute to work (one way) and my 2002 Honda CR-V gets around 25mpg - 27mpg depending on how I drive, I've spent weeks and months calculating the amount I fuel I use and I'm happy with what the CR-V provides...

Altho, compared to my Acura Integra's (RIP) 32 mpg I've noticed a HUGE difference in the amount of fuel the CR-V uses.

Also, I'd hate to drive around in a car where people would target me for the choice of car I drive.

Again, I think some people should take road rage courses, seriously the time you'll save by cutting off another driver and those extra 5 or so minutes mean nothing.... I've responded to more car accidents for impatient drivers who just "couldn't wait".

Honestly, if you are in that much of a rush, leave earlier.

i've found getting up 10mins early gets me to work in 40mins vs. 60mins in just avoiding the mass of commuters that all leave at the same time.

stay safe and drive smart.

 

[BlindLemonLars]

Personally, I carry a phone for MY convenience, not everyone else's.

I am SO WITH YOU there. That's what I tell people who complain that they couldn't reach me...did it ever occur to them that maybe I don't want to be available 24/7 to anybody within arms reach of a phone? Often I take my cell because I think I might need it, or in case of emergency, but I switch it off.

Rarely, however, have I been convinced that statements about 'all drivers of this sort do these horrible things' are even remotely accurate. Very seldom are people able to produce any sort of actual data to support their opinion, largely based on a few anecdotal circumstances

Again, I agree...I have to laugh at anguished, Prius damning tales of hypermiling drivers screwing up the roads for others. The only reason anybody even knows about "hypermiling," is that it's suddenly topical, and fodder for pithy local news stories. The number of drivers actually doing it is completely insignificant....I've never witnessed it, and I doubt that anybody else here has either.

This morning I took my usual path to work, and for the most part drove a little above the speed limit, just keeping paced with the surrounding traffic. I was passed by half a dozen Prius drivers!

 

[brauhaus]

I am SO WITH YOU there. That's what I tell people who complain that they couldn't reach me...did it ever occur to them that maybe I don't want to be available 24/7 to anybody within arms reach of a phone? Often I take my cell because I think I might need it, or in case of emergency, but I switch it off.

Agreed. I have a pager that is on 24/7 and that is for the Fire Service, my wife and I have gotten rid of our cellphones and have bought a cheapy "gophone" that is for use when one of us is out of the house and needs to get a hold of the other...

I gave up my Palm Treo 650 b/c my co-workers and select clients decided calling me on weekends was perfectly normal and placing urgent emails to my pone was how I wanted to spend my weekends.

 

[EdWort]

Cars are programmed (the ECU) to have the fuel map run from rich to lean. At low RMP's you car WILL use more gas if you try to keep the rev's low. They try to take the most advantage of the cam shaft profile in your car. This means that your car is geared and engineered to run at a "peak" zone in the powerband. This is why you lost that 1 mpg. There is always a spot where your car will get the best fuel economy. And yes cars today are geared to run at 65 on the highway.

Yep. I bought my daughter a Chevy Aveo and drove it to Dallas last week. On the way up, I varied my speed between 65 and 75 all the way and got 35 MPG on it. On the way back, I set the cruise control to 60 and not only had folks pass me like I was standing still, the fuel economy came in at 31 MPG!!! WTF???

Slower does not mean better fuel economy.

 

[kornkob]

Yep. I bought my daughter a Chevy Aveo and drove it to Dallas last week. On the way up, I varied my speed between 65 and 75 all the way and got 35 MPG on it. On the way back, I set the cruise control to 60 and not only had folks pass me like I was standing still, the fuel economy came in at 31 MPG!!! WTF???

Slower does not mean better fuel economy.

However, there may well have been other factors involved that you were not cataloging or noticing like:

-a tailwind on the way there
-more time spent following within 150 feet (10 car lengths) of a semi-trailer or other large vehicle on the way there
-more weight in the vehicle (buy anything in dallas?) on the way back
-more idle time at lights an the like on the return

Did your figures for the return mileage include any fuel used IN Dallas?
Did you use the same gas stations (possible incorrectly calibrated fuel pump)?

When you were returning you clearly state that you were constantly getting passed: this means that you were probably not closing following anyone on the return trip, which means you were not taking advantage of teh drafting that happens when following other vehicles. In fact following a large semi-trailer within 150 feet (that's ~10 car lengths) can give you some gas savings.


which is to say: your story demonstrates that gas mileage is complicated and most generalities are flawed. (That includes the last line of your post-- slower speed DOES mean better gas mileage, all other factors being equal)

 

[EdWort]

don't know about a tail wind.

No tailgating or drafting (too dangerous)

Same weight each way.

Tank topped off on highway beginning a 180 mile stretch each way.

No idle times or traffic jams.

This was strictly highway miles for the up and back trip. I refueled when I got off the highway when I got to Dallas, then again before I left for Austin, and lastly when I got off the highway in Austin.

 

[dirtymike1]

However, there may well have been other factors involved that you were not cataloging or noticing like:

-a tailwind on the way there
-more time spent following within 150 feet (10 car lengths) of a semi-trailer or other large vehicle on the way there
-more weight in the vehicle (buy anything in dallas?) on the way back
-more idle time at lights an the like on the return

Did your figures for the return mileage include any fuel used IN Dallas?
Did you use the same gas stations (possible incorrectly calibrated fuel pump)?

When you were returning you clearly state that you were constantly getting passed: this means that you were probably not closing following anyone on the return trip, which means you were not taking advantage of teh drafting that happens when following other vehicles. In fact following a large semi-trailer within 150 feet (that's ~10 car lengths) can give you some gas savings.


which is to say: your story demonstrates that gas mileage is complicated and most generalities are flawed. (That includes the last line of your post-- slower speed DOES mean better gas mileage, all other factors being equal)

Thats good and all but like I already said, your cars ECU is programed rich-lean. Sure added weight, "tail winds...." and what not are fine to throw out there, but YOU CAR ITSELF determines your fuel economy. Ed, whats the EPA est. MPG for the Chevy?

Yes you can draft behind a trailer and get very good gains in fuel econmoy, but it all boils down to keeping your car in the powerband to produce the best power vs. fuel consumtion.

If you want, put your car on a dyno and run it, that way all variables are factored out.

 

[kornkob]

No tailgating or drafting (too dangerous)

tailgating does not equal drafting.

Behind large vehicles there is a VERY large area of disrupted air which can provide significant fuel savings. As much as a 10% savings can be seen following at 100 feet, which is close but that is ~7 car lengths-- significantly more than most people leave on the highway.