Interesting Competition, Need Brewing Advice

[LymanBrewing]

Hey all! This is a great site, and I've learned a ton here! I'm in need of some advice.

I'm an all-grain and new(ish) brewer, and I'm entering my first homebrewing (Bell's Brewery) competition. I'm running into some trouble trying to figure out exactly how I should handle this.

Per the rules, we are given 5 gallons of un-hopped, minimally boiled pale malt wort that we must use; we can add anything to this wort to brew our entry. The pre-boil gravity will be in the 1.048 range. We only have to turn in 4 bottles, so I'm not too concerned with how much goes into the fermenter.

Now the question. I want to add: 1lb Munich, .5 lb CaraPils, and .9 Caramel 40L. How the heck do I do this given that the main fermentables are already in wort form?

 

[poislb]

heat the wort to 152 degrees and just steep the grains in a bag for 20-30min? Then boil as normal

 

[LymanBrewing]

heat the wort to 152 degrees and just steep the grains in a bag for 20-30min? Then boil as normal

I considered an approach similar to this, but couldn't quite figure the numbers out.

Is there a way in advance to determine the effect this would have on the original wort?

I have BeerSmith and created a hypothetical recipe using 10# of pale malt and the above grains (and of course other ingredients) and number wise it hits about what I'm looking for. However, I can't figure out how to work in the provided wort .

 

[Calichusetts]

Use the wort as your mash water...do what you like with it then take a hydrometer reading. I'd just be careful of the effects on ph from doing this

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

I would mash your grains in the water you need to add to your pre boil volume.

So if it were me. I would mash the grains in the remaining 1.75-2 gallons then blend that with the provided wort then boil as normal.

 

[Doongie]

There's what seems like a lot of math, but it's pretty simple. Let's assume you want to end up with 5 gallons of 1.060 to go into the fermenter. 5 gallons at 60 points per gallon is 300 total gravity points you want. Once you have them, these points do not go away until fermentation, they are only diluted over different volumes. Figuring once you have the total, dividing by volume gives you the concentration of that volume. You have 5 gallons with 240 points (5 x 48=240 total point contributed by the wort they gave you), you need an additional 60 points total to reach your goal of 300 total points. Let's say you need 7 gallons preboil. You need 2 more gallons with 60 points of gravity in them. Figure out what you have to mash to get 2 gallons of 1.060 wort, blend the two, viola! 7 gallons (5+2) at 1.043 ish (240+60=300 points over 7 gallons = 300/7 or about 43 points per gallon = 1.043 preboil gravity), boils down to 5 gallons at 1.060. Now you have your target o.g.

Now, since this new wort is 2/7ths of your preboil wort, you have to calculate the ratio of specialty malt for it to be the right amount if you mashed the whole thing yourself. If you wanted 15% vienna in the recipe, you need that 15% for 7 gallons to come from this 2 gallons you are mashing, i.e. your ratio in the 2 gallon mash needs to be substantially more than 15%. If you assume the same potential for all your grains (they range from roughly 1.031-1.038), you can say 15% of the total 300 points should be vienna, or 45 total points. If the potential is 1.034, then you need just shy of 1.5 lbs vienna in your 2 gallon mash (45 total points divided by 34 points per pound = 1.32 pounds required).

These methods of calculating should get you pretty darn close to the malt profile you are looking for in your final beer.

Good luck with your entry!

 

[Doongie]

There's what seems like a lot of math, but it's pretty simple. Let's assume you want to end up with 5 gallons of 1.060 to go into the fermenter. 5 gallons at 60 points per gallon is 300 total gravity points you want. Once you have them, these points do not go away until fermentation, they are only diluted over different volumes. Figuring once you have the total, dividing by volume gives you the concentration of that volume. You have 5 gallons with 240 points (5 x 48=240 total point contributed by the wort they gave you), you need an additional 60 points total to reach your goal of 300 total points. Let's say you need 7 gallons preboil. You need 2 more gallons with 60 points of gravity in them. Figure out what you have to mash to get 2 gallons of 1.060 wort, blend the two, viola! 7 gallons (5+2) at 1.043 ish (240+60=300 points over 7 gallons = 300/7 or about 43 points per gallon = 1.043 preboil gravity), boils down to 5 gallons at 1.060. Now you have your target o.g.

Now, since this new wort is 2/7ths of your preboil wort, you have to calculate the ratio of specialty malt for it to be the right amount if you mashed the whole thing yourself. If you wanted 15% vienna in the recipe, you need that 15% for 7 gallons to come from this 2 gallons you are mashing, i.e. your ratio in the 2 gallon mash needs to be substantially more than 15%. If you assume the same potential for all your grains (they range from roughly 1.031-1.038), you can say 15% of the total 300 points should be vienna, or 45 total points. If the potential is 1.034, then you need just shy of 1.5 lbs vienna in your 2 gallon mash (45 total points divided by 34 points per pound = 1.32 pounds required).

These methods of calculating should get you pretty darn close to the malt profile you are looking for in your final beer.

Good luck with your entry!

I forgot, watch out, mashing in odd concentrations could throw off your ph.

 

[JR_Brewer]

I agree with the folks who are saying to do a 1.5-2 gallon mini-mash and add the resulting wort to the wort you were provided. You'll have approx 6-6.5 gallons to boil, so after boil-off you'll be close to 5.

I wouldn't mash in the wort you were given. The pH will be off, and it doesn't buy you anything.

 

[LymanBrewing]

Thanks all for the help! The mini-mash/blend idea seems like the best route. Doongie, your #s section is awesome and definitely helps! It gave me some ideas and I'd like to run it by you all.

I put some numbers in BeerSmith (I'm usually lower efficiency, 65%). My thought was that I wanted to use only the amount of specialty grains that I would use if I were to mashed the entire batch myself. To get that higher OG, I would definitely need to buy my own Pale Malt to add to my mini-mash in order to hit those 1.06 OG numbers.

I'm planning on mashing:

4 lbs - Pale Malt
.58 - Munich
.58 - Caramel 40L
.5 - CaraPils

Using my 65% efficiency, this brings me to 2 gallons of 1.060 which I can then add to the wort received. From this point, Doongie's numbers work out the rest.

What do you guys think; solid plan?

Thanks again all!

 

[JR_Brewer]

I liked your original plan to use a full pound of Munich, but otherwise pretty solid Good luck with the competition!

 

[Doongie]

My thought was that I wanted to use only the amount of specialty grains that I would use if I were to mashed the entire batch myself.

Yep, exactly. And the math supports that.

Make your recipe as though you were mashing the entire thing. Adjust volume to get what you need, you will see the gravity go through the roof. Adjust base malt till you get the gravity you need.

The mini mash you mentioned should not cause efficiency issues due to hi gravity or ph.

 

[LymanBrewing]

I liked your original plan to use a full pound of Munich, but otherwise pretty solid Good luck with the competition!

Actually, that was a great catch! 1# Munich is what I wanted. Thanks!

 

[LymanBrewing]

Yep, exactly. And the math supports that.

Make your recipe as though you were mashing the entire thing. Adjust volume to get what you need, you will see the gravity go through the roof. Adjust base malt till you get the gravity you need.

The mini mash you mentioned should not cause efficiency issues due to hi gravity or ph.

Awesome, thank you again!

 

[IslandLizard]

Are you allowed to add more wort to the challenge batch?

 

[LymanBrewing]

You bet, as long as you use the wort provided, all is fair game.

 

[Homercidal]

Dang. I'm going to a Tigers Game that day! Looks like I will miss it again this year.

Yes, you can do anything you want to the wort, but they mention that you should keep detailed notes on what you do so they can replicate that if your entry is the winner. The winner gets their beer made and sold on tap at the eccentric cafe.

 

[nvious23]

Dang. I'm going to a Tigers Game that day! Looks like I will miss it again this year.

Yes, you can do anything you want to the wort, but they mention that you should keep detailed notes on what you do so they can replicate that if your entry is the winner. The winner gets their beer made and sold on tap at the eccentric cafe.

I have a wedding so unfortunately i will be unable to pick up wort and make it back in time. Maybe next year ill get in on it.

 

[Sippin37]

This below is exactly correct, except I noticed one incorrect math error. He says you need 2 more gallons of 1.060 wort to add, but you actually need 2 more gallons of 1.030 wort (2 gallons at 30 points/gallon = 60 gravity points). This will take you from 240 points to 300 total points, thus hitting your target of 300 total gravity points.

Just figured I would chime in as this stuff can be confusing for some, was for me at first. Cheers and good luck!

There's what seems like a lot of math, but it's pretty simple. Let's assume you want to end up with 5 gallons of 1.060 to go into the fermenter. 5 gallons at 60 points per gallon is 300 total gravity points you want. Once you have them, these points do not go away until fermentation, they are only diluted over different volumes. Figuring once you have the total, dividing by volume gives you the concentration of that volume. You have 5 gallons with 240 points (5 x 48=240 total point contributed by the wort they gave you), you need an additional 60 points total to reach your goal of 300 total points. Let's say you need 7 gallons preboil. You need 2 more gallons with 60 points of gravity in them. Figure out what you have to mash to get 2 gallons of 1.060 wort, blend the two, viola! 7 gallons (5+2) at 1.043 ish (240+60=300 points over 7 gallons = 300/7 or about 43 points per gallon = 1.043 preboil gravity), boils down to 5 gallons at 1.060. Now you have your target o.g.

Now, since this new wort is 2/7ths of your preboil wort, you have to calculate the ratio of specialty malt for it to be the right amount if you mashed the whole thing yourself. If you wanted 15% vienna in the recipe, you need that 15% for 7 gallons to come from this 2 gallons you are mashing, i.e. your ratio in the 2 gallon mash needs to be substantially more than 15%. If you assume the same potential for all your grains (they range from roughly 1.031-1.038), you can say 15% of the total 300 points should be vienna, or 45 total points. If the potential is 1.034, then you need just shy of 1.5 lbs vienna in your 2 gallon mash (45 total points divided by 34 points per pound = 1.32 pounds required).

These methods of calculating should get you pretty darn close to the malt profile you are looking for in your final beer.

Good luck with your entry!

 

[divrguy]

Hey all! This is a great site, and I've learned a ton here! I'm in need of some advice.

I'm an all-grain and new(ish) brewer, and I'm entering my first homebrewing (Bell's Brewery) competition. I'm running into some trouble trying to figure out exactly how I should handle this.

Per the rules, we are given 5 gallons of un-hopped, minimally boiled pale malt wort that we must use; we can add anything to this wort to brew our entry. The pre-boil gravity will be in the 1.048 range. We only have to turn in 4 bottles, so I'm not too concerned with how much goes into the fermenter.

Now the question. I want to add: 1lb Munich, .5 lb CaraPils, and .9 Caramel 40L. How the heck do I do this given that the main fermentables are already in wort form?

Does the pre boil gravity HAVE to be in the 1.048 range?

 

[LymanBrewing]

Does the pre boil gravity HAVE to be in the 1.048 range?

Well, the pre-boil gravity is what we receive from the brewery, and it comes in at 1.048. We can do whatever we want with it after we receive it.

 

[LymanBrewing]

This below is exactly correct, except I noticed one incorrect math error. He says you need 2 more gallons of 1.060 wort to add, but you actually need 2 more gallons of 1.030 wort (2 gallons at 30 points/gallon = 60 gravity points). This will take you from 240 points to 300 total points, thus hitting your target of 300 total gravity points.

Just figured I would chime in as this stuff can be confusing for some, was for me at first. Cheers and good luck!

Great catch! Thank you for the clarification!

 

[Doongie]

This below is exactly correct, except I noticed one incorrect math error. He says you need 2 more gallons of 1.060 wort to add, but you actually need 2 more gallons of 1.030 wort (2 gallons at 30 points/gallon = 60 gravity points). This will take you from 240 points to 300 total points, thus hitting your target of 300 total gravity points.

Just figured I would chime in as this stuff can be confusing for some, was for me at first. Cheers and good luck!

Good catch! I must have not had any coffee yet...

That 30 points can make quite a difference depending on which malt it comes from.