Insecure about my brewing. What's going on?

[Braufessor]

I disagree. I believe that all extract beers have a certain flavor to them even if they are done properly. I think you are crazy if you think the process to make extract doesn't effect the flavor. If you take all or most f the water out of anything it changes the flavor drastically. I can say that I have had some really great extract brews but I can also taste that they are extract brews.

The persistent idea that ALL extract beers have a "Twang" taste to them is simply not true. People win NHC medals with extract beer..... they most certainly do not have a "twang" to them. I have tasted beer that was extract..... even lagers and light american ales..... that were just outstanding and there was no "Extract" taste to them.

All grain definitely allows for more flexibility in brewing a wide range of beers. And some beers may indeed be more or less suited to extract brewing. But, the reason the vast majority of extract beers have a "taste" to them is that they are brewed by beginners who are still getting their process down, or even experienced brewers who are getting inadequate extract or have process problems.

If every extract beer you brew has a "taste" to it...... it is not simply because it is extract. There is a problem - be it process, ingredient freshness/quality or recipe. Simply switching to all-grain will not automatically make it go away. The only way all grain will make it go away is if you were using old LME and you start using grain that is essentially fresh/better quality. That might make it go away.

 

[Qhrumphf]

The persistent idea that ALL extract beers have a "Twang" taste to them is simply not true. People win NHC medals with extract beer..... they most certainly do not have a "twang" to them. I have tasted beer that was extract..... even lagers and light american ales..... that were just outstanding and there was no "Extract" taste to them.

All grain definitely allows for more flexibility in brewing a wide range of beers. And some beers may indeed be more or less suited to extract brewing. But, the reason the vast majority of extract beers have a "taste" to them is that they are brewed by beginners who are still getting their process down, or even experienced brewers who are getting inadequate extract or have process problems.

If every extract beer you brew has a "taste" to it...... it is not simply because it is extract. There is a problem - be it process, ingredient freshness/quality or recipe. Simply switching to all-grain will not automatically make it go away. The only way all grain will make it go away is if you were using old LME and you start using grain that is essentially fresh/better quality. That might make it go away.

+1

Tasted plenty of extract beers where you would never know. They're rare, for the reasons above. But they're out there. Old extract is the number one cause for an otherwise well crafted extract beer.

 

[joshesmusica]

wait so one of you who says that extract twang doesn't exist says there are tons of good extract beers out there, while the other says they are rare. one says that there are many causes, mainly the processes of the new beginner, yet the other says the number 1 cause is old extract.
both of you agree that old extract will cause a weird flavor, which is completely destroying your own point that extract alone won't cause off flavors. you're both admitting that SOME extract will.
so then what is your definition of old? how old does it have to be before these off-flavors start presenting themselves?
why are they rare because of the reasons mentioned? because it's hard to get super fresh extract? so then if that's the case, then many, MANY, people could be experiencing this extract twang because it's hard for them to come across fresh extract?
i don't believe that anybody's arguing that there is definitely something wrong with the off-flavor. but please read over your arguments again. you're both admitting, even though you don't actually want to admit, that the cause CAN come from the extract alone.

 

[Braufessor]

both of you agree that old extract will cause a weird flavor, which is completely destroying your own point that extract alone won't cause off flavors. you're both admitting that SOME extract will.

It is not "destroying the point." Extract beers don't taste funny because they are made with extract. Some extract beers (like ALL beers) might not taste right if they are brewed using old/mishandled ingredients. It is easier to have old/mishandled extract than it is to have old/mishandled grain.

so then what is your definition of old? how old does it have to be before these off-flavors start presenting themselves?
why are they rare because of the reasons mentioned? because it's hard to get super fresh extract? so then if that's the case, then many, MANY, people could be experiencing this extract twang because it's hard for them to come across fresh extract?

I don't know the exact "age" and it would also depend on handling. But, this is why it is good to use DME instead of LME - LME has less of a shelf life and more susceptible to the "age" problems. You can cut down on the issue by using DME.

but please read over your arguments again. you're both admitting, even though you don't actually want to admit, that the cause CAN come from the extract alone.

I don't agree. The flavor does not come from "extract" alone. It might come from old/poor quality extract alone....... but that is not the same thing as saying "all extract beers have a "twang" to them because they were brewed with extract.

If I crushed 100lbs of grain, let it sit for a year, and then brewed a bunch of beers with it, and they all tasted "off" - it would not be because I used grain...... it would be because I used old/poorly handled grain.

 

[HBKidJr]

Fermentation temp looks fine for WLP004.
Did you record your OG, and FG?

OG was 1.046 and FG was 1.013.

Did you switch brands of spring water? Not all spring water has the same mineral content.

Nope, same brand. Walmart spring water. Doesn't mean they didn't change something, but it's what I've used from the beginning to the end, during good and bad beers.

Do you know anyone around you that brews? If so, invite them over to assist on a batch; get their opinion on where and what temp you ferment at; have them taste your beer and get their thoughts on that too! Or search out your local brewclub, if you have one.

If I can offer one more suggestion, aside from what has been said, it is this: Get back to basics! I haven't seen the recipe for your vanilla gingerbread stout, but it seems pretty involved with the spice additions and the yeast starter. Try a simple, tried and true extract (with steeping grains) recipe, and sprinkle some dry yeast on it. PBW and Starsan everything.

When you are ready to make an upgrade in equipment (not that you have to) spend a few bucks on controlling fermentation temps. Swamp cooler, old fridge + temp controller, Cool Zone temp control from gotta-brew, or the FTSS temp control lid from SS brew tech.

Nah, no one local. No homebrew groups or anything. Very small community I'm in.

Yeah, the vanilla GB stout was super complex. Haha, I was getting cocky. The Irish Ale I made was good, and I followed that up with a very good brown ale, so I got arrogant.

Are you really sure sanitation isn't an issue? The fact that your first batch (using new equipment?) was good, and then the rest crap could mean you have some nasties lurking about somewhere. A good way to tell is get rid of the gas in your beer and recheck your FG. If it's really low then this can point to some wild yeast.

I'm pretty anal about my sanitizing, but no, I'm not 100%. I usually even sanitize with StarSan each time I return my spoon to the wort while boiling. I'll recheck the FG. When I stopped brewing, I kept all of my old stuff. When I started back up, I just got everything out and cleaned and sanitized like usual.

*Use DME instead of Liquid.

I thought about that. The cream stout I'm fermenting now was made with only DME.

Recipe - try something really straight forward...... basically a basic american pale ale. Use DME base, maybe steep 1/2lb of caramel 40 or something for a bit of color. Simple hopping..... like maybe use 7C's blend. Use straight forward 1056/american ale yeast.... That is a good fermenter. That will give you an easy, cheap, fast beer to turn around and evaluate some of the new things you are trying.

Good suggestions. I'll go simple with my next one.

Water - Reverse Osmosis water

I'll try this. I've heard that distilled is a no no. Can you confirm? I've considered it, but I've heard there's not enough there to support the yeast.

Also - Sanitation - Are you bottling? Are you taking the spigot on your bottling bucket completely apart? Are you taking your auto siphon apart? Grab a new section of tubing perhaps. Generally sanitation issues are almost always in places like spigots, tubing, keg line, valves, siphons, etc....make sure all that stuff is getting taken apart.

I've bottled every batch I've ever done, except recently. My wife got me a keg. First batch in it isn't a good example. I can pretty much guarantee I cooled it too slowly and let it ferment too warm. The current batch in the keg is the one we're discussing, the Irish, and I also bottled 6 of them as a control.

I've replaced the spigot with a completely knew one, but I didn't use a bottling bucket with the first kegged beer, or this one. I used the siphon and the fill tube and just kinked it since it was only 6 bottles.

I do need to pick up some new tubing, but I always take everything apart and soak in PBW, flush generously, and then soak in StarSan the morning of brew/bottle day until I use it a few hours later.



I've been pondering the plunge into A/G anyway. I just want to make sure my process isn't why my beer's jacked up. Like someone else said, if it's my process, it's going to be wrong no matter what method I'm using.

 

[Braufessor]

I'll try this. I've heard that distilled is a no no. Can you confirm? I've considered it, but I've heard there's not enough there to support the yeast.

For extract, distilled is fine. All of the nutrients/minerals you really need are in the extract (because that was boiled down). You could probably use some yeast nutrient. But with extract, the "mineral" aspect is not an issue generally. Distilled simply costs 3x as much as the "refill" RO water.... you can usually refill for like .39cents per gallon.

 

[Qhrumphf]

wait so one of you who says that extract twang doesn't exist says there are tons of good extract beers out there, while the other says they are rare.

Rare compared to less-than-stellarly brewed extract beers. Rare compared to dime a dozen Mr. Beer brews which are always INCREDIBLY old, cheaply made, and always include a high percentage of simple sugar and old yeast. Most brewers who get good at what they're doing eventually move to all-grain. Few stay with extract. Of the brewers I know (usually city brewers) who still brew extract after getting really good, never a shred of "twang" in any of their beers. They taste just like an all-grain brewer's beer. Because they follow proper brewing procedure, and make sure their ingredients are fresh and properly handled.

one says that there are many causes, mainly the processes of the new beginner, yet the other says the number 1 cause is old extract.

You forgot the "of an otherwise well crafted extract beer". Most extract beers are brewed by beginners who have not perfected their process.

both of you agree that old extract will cause a weird flavor, which is completely destroying your own point that extract alone won't cause off flavors. you're both admitting that SOME extract will.

Yes. Old extract provides off flavors. Just like old grain. And old hops. And old yeast. Just like in cooking, if you use stale old ingredients you're going to lose quality of the final product. That's handling. That's not extract in and of itself.

so then what is your definition of old? how old does it have to be before these off-flavors start presenting themselves?
why are they rare because of the reasons mentioned?
because it's hard to get super fresh extract? so then if that's the case, then many, MANY, people could be experiencing this extract twang because it's hard for them to come across fresh extract?

hmmm....lots of people using less than fresh extract, could by why, oh, I don't know, this stupid "extract twang" myth keeps persisting. Or because extract brewers are regularly underpitching, underaerating, fermenting too warm, fermenting in less stable temperatures, allowing their temperature to drop and impacting the reabsortion of intermediary compounds by the yeast, and generally not brewing things according to proper practice. I'm sure it's more the latter than the former.

i don't believe that anybody's arguing that there is definitely something wrong with the off-flavor. but please read over your arguments again. you're both admitting, even though you don't actually want to admit, that the cause CAN come from the extract alone.

Yes, you're saying that there's an off flavor from extract, in all extract beers. Major or not, you're making a case that doesn't hold up. And neither of us have contradicted each other once.

I'll wager money that the supposed off-flavor from extract is one of a few things:

-Boiling LME for an extended period of time (using LME at the start instead of a late addition). This is equivalent to doing an extremely long boil, which is not appropriate for most beer styles. It can create a rich melanoidin character that works in certain beers, but certainly not all.

ie process related, not the extract itself.

-Old extract, stale and oxidized. Even the extract manufacturers admit that particularly LME when left to sit will darken, an oxidation reaction.

-Acetaledehyde from poor fermentation temp control and/or poor pitching rate- Pitch too warm, let it cool down to room temp, and then explode back up with an uncontrolled (or air controlled even in a poorly designed ferm chamber) fermentation, to then fall back down as fermentation slows. That's just ASKING for acetaldehyde. Sound familiar? That's exactly how almost every beginning brewers (and even some AG brewers and folks who should otherwise know better) ferment their beers. Green apple and kind of tart. "Twang".

-Chorophenols. From using tap water untreated, or from using bleach as a sanitizer.

-Using anything other than the lightest extract possible, and then piling on the specialty grains. Plenty of beers with a pound of crystal malt on top of Amber extract. That's overkill on the steeping grains, since the Amber extract would already be full of crystal malts already.

-And then your general fermentation off-flavors from poor yeast handling, poor pitching rate, and poor aeration. Excessive esters, diacetyl, etc.

Extract twang exists as anecdote only. I've never experience an "extract twang" that couldn't be explained by something else.

 

[joshesmusica]

hmmm....lots of people using less than fresh extract, could by why, oh, I don't know, this stupid "extract twang" myth keeps persisting.

Yes, you're saying that there's an off flavor from extract, in all extract beers. Major or not, you're making a case that doesn't hold up. And neither of us have contradicted each other once.

yes thank you for proving my point. lots of people could be continuing this myth because lots of people could be using old extract which causes a twang.

and yes you guys have contradicted each other.

and i never once said that all extract causes a twang. i said that there is a such thing as extract twang, because of old extract.

because this is one variable, then why not change this variable too at some point? it was after all my second point. because out of his process the only thing that i saw wrong was not holding good temps during fermentation. if fixing that didn't solve the problem, then why not change one variable that could possibly be causing it if he was getting ahold of old extract?

It is easier to have old/mishandled extract than it is to have old/mishandled grain.

I don't agree. The flavor does not come from "extract" alone. It might come from old/poor quality extract alone....... but that is not the same thing as saying "all extract beers have a "twang" to them because they were brewed with extract.

exactly proving my point again. it's quite easy to get your hands on old extract without knowing it.

again i NEVER said every extract beer has a twang, you guys took your hatred for this myth and forced those words on me. i said that extract has been known to have a twang. i said this because it is very likely, as you both have said, that people are getting old extract.

so why in the world would it be absolutely impossible that his problem is that he bought old extract?

don't be so crazy caught up in this whole "extract twang is an anecdotal myth" thing. there were lots of things in the homebrewing world that were thought to be only anecdotal myths that are now commonly practiced, and scientifically proven.

 

[Qhrumphf]

yes thank you for proving my point. lots of people could be continuing this myth because lots of people could be using old extract which causes a twang.

and yes you guys have contradicted each other.

and i never once said that all extract causes a twang. i said that there is a such thing as extract twang, because of old extract.

because this is one variable, then why not change this variable too at some point? it was after all my second point. because out of his process the only thing that i saw wrong was not holding good temps during fermentation. if fixing that didn't solve the problem, then why not change one variable that could possibly be causing it if he was getting ahold of old extract?



exactly proving my point again. it's quite easy to get your hands on old extract without knowing it.

again i NEVER said every extract beer has a twang, you guys took your hatred for this myth and forced those words on me. i said that extract has been known to have a twang. i said this because it is very likely, as you both have said, that people are getting old extract.

so why in the world would it be absolutely impossible that his problem is that he bought old extract?

don't be so crazy caught up in this whole "extract twang is an anecdotal myth" thing. there were lots of things in the homebrewing world that were thought to be only anecdotal myths that are now commonly practiced, and scientifically proven.

Multiple things going on here. I can't speak for @Braufessor but only reason I said anything about extract twang (when you mentioned initially, you did indeed correlate it with old extract, which I agree if there's a LEGIT extract twang, it's stale ingredients), was because someone said "no, there's extract twang even in well made beers", which if you count using good ingredients as "well made" (which I do), is complete bunk. And you claimed that he and I contradicted ourselves. Which we did not.

No animosity towards you.

Edit: Ok, reading through previous posts, I might have gotten the two of you confused while typing said response. My bad. You didn't claim all extract beers had it. Oops. Foot in mouth.

 

[joshesmusica]

no animosity on my end either. just for the record. just wanted to help clear up some things.

also, for the record, i either do extract with steeping grains or partial mash, and have never had a batch coming with this twang that people are talking about. and that includes trying all kinds of additions from everything at the beginning of the boil to the partial mashes with all extracts at the end. so i'm actually with you on this issue as a whole.

but back to HBKidJr, i'm looking forward to hearing about this next beer up (as i've already said at least twice) because out of everything being discussed, i still think that the temps will help the most.

 

[Braufessor]

The "myth" is that extract beers taste funny because of "extract." It was brought up in various forms, by multiple people in posts #10,18 and 30 - that is why I mentioned it to start with.

No animosity to anyone. I just think it is important that the OP (and others who read the thread) understand that all extract beers do not inherently taste funny (extract twang) because they are extract beers.

Old/oxidized/poorly handled extract is the main cause of extract "twang." But most beginners are not proficient at describing off flavors and fall back on this description because they hear it elsewhere. The bottom line is that if your beer tastes "funny" - it is not because it was extract. There was something else at play. One of those things could be quality of the extract for sure. Or, it could be something else entirely.

I also think the OP has a couple good things here he can try, and hopefully one of them will alleviate the struggles he has been having.

 

[lazarwolf]

Some arguments can't be won. Some times you have to let people do what is fun for them. You're not more, or less of a brewer if you brew with extract. There are guys who do multi rest step or decoction mash, some of them look down on brewers who don't decoct. Are they more of a brewer than a single rest all grain guy? No, they're not. Can you Taste the difference in their beer? Well ... maybe. .. usually. But not always. All grain isn't right or wrong, it's a fun way to make beer. Extract isn't right or wrong is a fun and easy way to make good beer. I mostly mini mash. I'm sure you couldn't tell which are mini and which are all grain. But I've been brewing forever. So my vote is to avoid the all grain v extract argument. It's tired. Try to get great ingredients and respect them.

 

[HBKidJr]

My main reason for doing extract was that it was an easy way to get involved in brewing a few years ago. It served me well and it was, at the time, "close enough." The time for that being "not enough" is rapidly growing closer, but I just bought a house, so extra expenses for the time being are being directed to remodeling. Soon though, very soon.

I want to thank everyone for all the helpful input and opinions. I poured a test glass tonight, and again, I was met with the aroma and flavor I described many pages ago, sort of "yeasty". So then I got to thinking, even though I cold crashed to settle the trub, it seemed cloudy. So I got a bowl and I filled it up. I filled another glass and the smell was much better (not gone, but better). I have a bit of "alcohol" in the back end of the flavor, but I think that's attributed to being slightly too warm when it fermented and being "green". It is only 3 days in the keg, after all. I think in a week, this will be a good beer. In two weeks, I think it'll be much better.

I only wish I had some home brewers relatively nearby so I could get their opinion on this thing. I want to see what some all grainers think about it.

Thanks again guys!

 

[joshesmusica]

Some arguments can't be won. Some times you have to let people do what is fun for them. You're not more, or less of a brewer if you brew with extract. There are guys who do multi rest step or decoction mash, some of them look down on brewers who don't decoct. Are they more of a brewer than a single rest all grain guy? No, they're not. Can you Taste the difference in their beer? Well ... maybe. .. usually. But not always. All grain isn't right or wrong, it's a fun way to make beer. Extract isn't right or wrong is a fun and easy way to make good beer. I mostly mini mash. I'm sure you couldn't tell which are mini and which are all grain. But I've been brewing forever. So my vote is to avoid the all grain v extract argument. It's tired. Try to get great ingredients and respect them.

Out of left field, for the win!

no one was arguing extract vs. all-grain. read up before you comment.

 

[joshesmusica]

My main reason for doing extract was that it was an easy way to get involved in brewing a few years ago. It served me well and it was, at the time, "close enough." The time for that being "not enough" is rapidly growing closer, but I just bought a house, so extra expenses for the time being are being directed to remodeling. Soon though, very soon.

I want to thank everyone for all the helpful input and opinions. I poured a test glass tonight, and again, I was met with the aroma and flavor I described many pages ago, sort of "yeasty". So then I got to thinking, even though I cold crashed to settle the trub, it seemed cloudy. So I got a bowl and I filled it up. I filled another glass and the smell was much better (not gone, but better). I have a bit of "alcohol" in the back end of the flavor, but I think that's attributed to being slightly too warm when it fermented and being "green". It is only 3 days in the keg, after all. I think in a week, this will be a good beer. In two weeks, I think it'll be much better.

I only wish I had some home brewers relatively nearby so I could get their opinion on this thing. I want to see what some all grainers think about it.

Thanks again guys!

i've never done all grain, as i stated before. so i have no problem with extract brewing. it's gonna be a long time before i'll be able to get up the equipment to do all-grain properly, and until then, i'm completely fine with doing extract.
maybe as one guy commented, try just DME on your next beer, just to see if it's the quality of LME you're getting.
From what you described, i can't see why this was a temperature issue on your latest beer. did you let it condition some in the keg? or just force carb it? i don't keg so i'm not completely sure, but i think it needs time to condition in there as well.
as far as the yeasty and cloudy goes, you're pouring from the bottom of the keg. the first several pours are going to be cloudy in your keg.
maybe try finding a commercial beer of the same style and drinking yours side by side with it in a couple of weeks? i think at some points we become very critical of the flavors in our beer, and start to convince ourselves that there's lots of off flavors. when in fact, when we try a commercial beer next to it, we might find those flavors disappear. or it could help you describe exactly what that off flavor is.

 

[lazarwolf]

attempting a continuously hopped chocolate hibiscus imperial saison. Any of the above can make homebrew taste like ass.[/QUOTE]

That's funny. I literally laughed out loud, probably woke up the house hold

 

[lazarwolf]

Out of left field, for the win!

no one was arguing extract vs. all-grain. read up before you comment.

Hmm, I did read up, you may want to go back and re read.

And of course that's what the argument was about. It's always what is argued about and its not even relevant to the question that was asked. There was simply no reason to mention all grain brewing what so ever. Or to implicate that all extract brewing has a "twang to it".
If you took your Toyota to the auto mechanic he world fix your Toyota, he wouldn't waste people's time talking about how Mercedes doesn't have that problem.

The issue at hand was clearly a processes issue with an extract batch. A new brewer asking for process help. There is no reason to mention all grain processes. We need to support new brewers. We need to encourage this hobby. We don't need to constantly debate all grain v extract. That's what wasn't relevant. Imagine this scenario; "HEY DOC MY KNEE HURTS" ... "really? You should think about making the move to all grain, I feel better about myself because I can manage to do a single rest sacrification with fully modified grains. ..."

 

[HBKidJr]

maybe as one guy commented, try just DME on your next beer, just to see if it's the quality of LME you're getting.
From what you described, i can't see why this was a temperature issue on your latest beer. did you let it condition some in the keg? or just force carb it? i don't keg so i'm not completely sure, but i think it needs time to condition in there as well.
as far as the yeasty and cloudy goes, you're pouring from the bottom of the keg. the first several pours are going to be cloudy in your keg.
maybe try finding a commercial beer of the same style and drinking yours side by side with it in a couple of weeks? i think at some points we become very critical of the flavors in our beer, and start to convince ourselves that there's lots of off flavors. when in fact, when we try a commercial beer next to it, we might find those flavors disappear. or it could help you describe exactly what that off flavor is.

Yeah, like I said a few pages ago, the current beer fermenting is all DME, no liquid.

Yes, it does need some time to condition. I rushed it, I knew that. I force carbed it because I wanted it NOW! Haha.

I'm very critical of all my "work", not just my beer.

Didn't mean to start a war guys!

 

[kombat]

You're not more, or less of a brewer if you brew with extract.

I know this is controversial, but I disagree with this statement.

Are you less of a baker if you use store-bought cake mixes instead of baking from scratch? Yes!

Are you less of a chef if you use jars of pre-made pasta sauces instead of making your own sauces from scratch? Yes!

Are you less of a woodworker if you assemble a bookcase from Ikea instead of designing/cutting/sanding/staining/building a bookcase from raw lumber? Yes!

In my opinion, "brewing" means mashing. You have to draw the line somewhere, and I personally draw it at "mashing." You can buy pre-hopped wort kits that come with an entire 5 gallons of wort. All you have to do is literally pour it into a bucket and add the yeast. I think we can all agree that that's not brewing, right?

What about canned pre-hopped extract kits? With these, you at least have to add water to dilute the extract and get up to your full volume, but there's no boiling or anything else involved. Just add water, mix thoroughly, and add the yeast. Is that "brewing?"

Next is extract kits. As with the previous examples, someone else came up with the recipe and executed the mash. You just have to dilute the extract, steep some specialty grains, boil, add some hops, cool and pitch the yeast. Is that "brewing?" We're getting closer, but I'd still say "no." This is the baker that uses the store-bought cake mixes where all they have to add is oil and a couple of eggs.

Then partial mash. This still includes some extract, but at least you're using some base grains and performing a mash. It's controversial, but this is where I draw the line. This is "brewing."

Then of course, all-grain, decoction mashing, and right on down to growing/malting your own grain and cultivating your own hops, you can obviously take this as far as you can imagine, but it's all "brewing," as long as you're mashing, in my opinion.

 

[kombat]

I only wish I had some home brewers relatively nearby so I could get their opinion on this thing.

You probably do. Tell us where you are, some of them are likely to contact you.

 

[Braufessor]

You probably do. Tell us where you are, some of them are likely to contact you.

Very true...... I live in a small town of 1000 people. I am not within 75 miles of a town of 10,000 people. For 15 years there was not a homebrew store within 75 miles of me. I did not think anyone else brewed.

A few years ago a microbrewery opened up and a couple people put out the word that we could have some "homebrew" meetings at the tasting room..... I have since met 25-30 local homebrewers - almost none of whom I knew, or knew that they brewed. They were there all along, just didn't know it. There is now also a LHBS.

I bet you have people nearby that brew as well. I agree - what area are you in, and someone might be able to direct you to some folks with a lot of experience in your area. There is absolutely no better way to learn than to see other people brewing and their process - I still learn a lot seeing someone else brew and the way they solve problems.

 

[soccerdad]

Dear HBKidJr,

I hope that you have been able to find some good nuggets here that will make your next brew great ! I hope you are not distracted by our proclivity to piss in each others boots We brew a lot - so we drink a lot - so we pee a lot, and what better place to pee than the next guys boot?

I for one would be interested in knowing what one or two items you glean from the 'quote' 'unquote' DISCUSSION here to see if you can't be more secure and confident in your brewing. John Palmer himself once wrote that an all grain brewer should never look down at an extract brewer and that's good enough for me. If you choose to move from extract to partial mash to all grain - that is TERRIFIC ! If not - that is entirely up to you If you stick with extract just be the best extract brewer you can be ! And if you want to bounce process ideas off us - we welcome it. We empty our own boots, so we will not subject you to that task.

 

[HBKidJr]

You probably do. Tell us where you are, some of them are likely to contact you.

Cities near me are Union City, TN, South Fulton, TN, Fulton, KY. A little further away from me (1.5 to 2 hours) are Paducah, KY, Jackson, TN, and Dyersburg, TN. I KNOW there are brewers around Paducah, because the local liquor stores I pick up my brew at have homebrew supplies. Wouldn't be supply without demand. I don't buy any actual ingredients from them though. I know there's not a large enough market for it to keep fresh supplies.

Dear HBKidJr,

I hope that you have been able to find some good nuggets here that will make your next brew great ! I hope you are not distracted by our proclivity to piss in each others boots We brew a lot - so we drink a lot - so we pee a lot, and what better place to pee than the next guys boot?

I have picked up alot of useful info. I was already leaning toward the recommendations being reasons behind it, but this all helped affirm that.

 

[HBKidJr]

Here's a question(s):

Say the recipe I'm getting some inspiration from has LME listed, but I want to stick with DME.

1. How do I convert the LME units into DME units? How do I know how much to use?

2. How do I know which LMEs and DMEs are interchangeable? I've looked for certain DME types in the past and could not find the same type as the LME. Example just from a quick search on Midwest: I can get LME rye, but not DME rye.

 

[GRBC]

For anyone wondering, here's the recipe in question:



6.0 lb Liquid Malt Extract - Light

12.2 oz CaraRed (DE)

12.2 oz Caramel/Crystal 40L (US)

3.0 oz Special B (BE)

2.0 oz Roasted Barley (UK)



1.0 oz Cascade (US) 30 min

1.0 oz Fuggle (UK) 3 min



White Labs WLP004



I steeped the grains at 155 for 30 minutes in 4 gallons of bottled spring water.

Boiled for 30 minutes.



Chilled and pitched the yeast (starter) at 65 degrees.



Fermented fast and hard for 3 days. Let it sit for 3 weeks total.



Just smells and tastes sort of "yeasty".

A couple of thoughts. Looks like you are only getting 16 or so IBU from your two hop additions in a beer that is (over) loaded (25%) with crystal malt, not to mention whatever portion of crystal is in the extract. Is it possible that the yeasty flavor is just an overly sweet or malty beer? I think you would need at least 25-30 IBU to begin to balance all that crystal.

Also, I tend to perceive an earthy (read: dirt-like) flavor from Fuggles - especially when they are late boil additions. So I avoid them. YMMV.

 

[Braufessor]

Cities near me are Union City, TN, South Fulton, TN, Fulton, KY. A little further away from me (1.5 to 2 hours) are Paducah, KY, Jackson, TN, and Dyersburg, TN.

UNION CITY, TN
Beer Geek Brewers

Found this on the AHA website as a homebrew club..... maybe see if you can look this club up. It is really a great way to get feedback and touch base with others who can share their experiences and solutions.

 

[HBKidJr]

Looks like you are only getting 16 or so IBU from your two hop additions in a beer that is (over) loaded (25%) with crystal malt, not to mention whatever portion of crystal is in the extract. Is it possible that the yeasty flavor is just an overly sweet or malty beer? I think you would need at least 25-30 IBU to begin to balance all that crystal

Nah, this is yeasty. Like I said a few pages back, I'm not an expert, but I'm not a novice. I've got a fairly popular review show on YouTube, though I know that's not exactly a mark of excellence. The reason it's so hard to pick out this flavor/aroma is because you just can't find it in the commercially available brews.

Out of curiosity though, what's the best way to ensure a good hop to malt ratio in recipes? Or is it one of those "experience" things? I use BrewToad, and I keep the numbers within my selected style.

 

[soccerdad]

1. How do I convert the LME units into DME units? How do I know how much to use?

2. How do I know which LMEs and DMEs are interchangeable? I've looked for certain DME types in the past and could not find the same type as the LME. Example just from a quick search on Midwest: I can get LME rye, but not DME rye.

Both excellent questions .. I know that there are ways to calculate pounds of grist to pounds of LME or DME, and I think maybe the guys who use Beersmith have the quickest and easiest way to do it. Maybe other calculators can do this as well. Hopefully someone will chime in.

I know what you mean about variety with LME versus DME. I mostly see DME that is either light, or amber or dark .. but rarely as Gold (which I assume is pilsner), or Maris Otter, or Rye which you often see in LME.

One thing to consider - call a supplier that you trust, whether Midwest or other - they should be able to tell you what DME will come closest to what you need. If they suck at customer service - then find one you really TRUST .. because THAT'S the one that will also trust to have the freshest of everything ... LME, DME, yeast, etc.

 

[lazarwolf]

We simply disagree. For me brewing begins when you are boiling an unhopped extract and creating flavors with grains, and hops, and maybe spices.

Its ok for us to disagree. Still enjoy your posts. what im really tired of is a new brewer asking for help, and the community telling him all would be fine if he would mash grains.

Yes mashing improves beer. It just does. And yes im aware that some extracts have won HBC awards. But not many.

But here is a true statement. Most home brewers start with extract and grow to their own personal comfort level. Some never move to all grain or partial mash. Some still make excellent beer. And when a new brewer asks for help, the answer isnt always related to extract versus all grain. I partial mash, and all grain. I brew on my stove top. most of my recipes use extract. I haven't bought LME from a can in over 7 years. my LHBS has it fresh with the delivery date right on the dispenser. Extract "twang" is not generally the cause of most problems. Process is.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Here's a question(s):

Say the recipe I'm getting some inspiration from has LME listed, but I want to stick with DME.

1. How do I convert the LME units into DME units? How do I know how much to use?

2. How do I know which LMEs and DMEs are interchangeable? I've looked for certain DME types in the past and could not find the same type as the LME. Example just from a quick search on Midwest: I can get LME rye, but not DME rye.

Both excellent questions .. I know that there are ways to calculate pounds of grist to pounds of LME or DME, and I think maybe the guys who use Beersmith have the quickest and easiest way to do it. Maybe other calculators can do this as well. Hopefully someone will chime in.

I know what you mean about variety with LME versus DME. I mostly see DME that is either light, or amber or dark .. but rarely as Gold (which I assume is pilsner), or Maris Otter, or Rye which you often see in LME.

One thing to consider - call a supplier that you trust, whether Midwest or other - they should be able to tell you what DME will come closest to what you need. If they suck at customer service - then find one you really TRUST .. because THAT'S the one that will also trust to have the freshest of everything ... LME, DME, yeast, etc.

Off the top of my head, LME usually provides 36ppg, and DME 42ppg. So where you'd normally use 1 pound of LME, you'd use 0.86 lbs DME.

Edit: BeerSmith has it at 36ppg and 44-45ppg, so 0.8 pounds DME per pound of LME

As far as getting the "right" extract, that is a limiting factor of extract. You never know what went into it. Asking your supplier is a good bet. But I always say just use the lightest you can find. Briess Pilsen Light DME is what I use for starters, and I used it in extract beers in the past.

When you're using something like rye extract, it gets harder, because you aren't going to know the rye percentage and that could change between manufacturers. I know I've seen rye LME from a number of sources, but I don't think I've seen rye DME, although I haven't been looking.

Nah, this is yeasty. Like I said a few pages back, I'm not an expert, but I'm not a novice. I've got a fairly popular review show on YouTube, though I know that's not exactly a mark of excellence. The reason it's so hard to pick out this flavor/aroma is because you just can't find it in the commercially available brews.

Out of curiosity though, what's the best way to ensure a good hop to malt ratio in recipes? Or is it one of those "experience" things? I use BrewToad, and I keep the numbers within my selected style.

Here's a question that I stupidly didn't think of until now, for your bottled beers, were you leaving the yeast sediment behind in the bottom of the bottle, or pouring the entire thing in?

And all numbers in range for style does not appropriate to style make. If your IBUs are at the bottom of the range, and your gravities at the top of the range, your beer will seem underbittered for the style.

I put more stock in BU:GU (bitterness to gravity ratio) than I do in IBUs. Basically the ratio of IBUs to starting gravity. And this site even has a technique for adjusting it to weigh in final gravity too:

http://www.madalchemist.com/chart_bitterness_ratio.html