Insecure about my brewing. What's going on?

[HBKidJr]

I first got into brewing a few years ago, but stopped because all of my brew had a similar smell and flavor. About a year ago, I started back in and I made the best beer I'd ever made. I was concerned about the results, so I only made a 2.5 gallon batch.

For Christmas, I made a vanilla gingerbread stout. I pitched one vial of yeast and I let the beer cool in the freezer, which took much longer than I thought it would. The finished product was....."meh"...the alcohol flavor was very obvious and it had a flavor and aroma that I attributed to the clove called for in the recipe.

Brings us to this past weekend. I went back and revisited the recipe that was so great before, but I doubled everything for a 5 gallon batch. I also made a starter for this one, and used my immersion chiller because I wanted it to be perfect. It cooled in 20 minutes and fermented for 3 weeks. Fermentation was done in 3 days (constant gravity for 3 days). I kegged it this past Saturday, and upon trying it, was reminded of that same smell and aroma from the old beers I made. It was very similar to the original recipe of the 2.5 gallon batch that was so good, but over the top of it was just that familiar taste/smell. I'm hoping some conditioning in the keg (I also bottled 6 bottles as a test) will eliminate it. I'm used to waiting 2 weeks before cracking open a bottle, as this is only my second kegged batch.

What could be going on? I'm extract brewing. Boiling for whatever my longest hop addition calls for. Using 4 gallons of water in my boil, then topping off to just under 5 gallons. Pretty sure it's not a sanitation issue. Cooling isn't an issue. My only thoughts are maybe my fermentation temps are too high and making some DMS. I've been storing my wort in a closet that sits at 65 degrees, which would knock up ferm. temp to 72ish internal. My WLP004 is within that spectrum. I read about how moving the wort to a warmer area after it was done fermenting was the best way to get the yeast to clean up everything, so I moved it out into the room after it was done, which is 72 degrees.

Holy crap that's a wall of text. Sincerest thanks to anyone who trudges through all that and helps me out.

Bonus question: Is all grain going to make a big difference in my brewing? My ingredients are fresh, so that's not an issue. I know it gives some more flexibility in my ingredients and subtle flavors, but if it's what's keeping my beer tasting like this, I'm ready to go for it.

 

[YeastMode]

I may have missed it, but what is the description of the small and flavor you are attempting to eliminate (presumably)?

 

[jsprinceiii]

Approx 3 weeks is extremely green..
Let it rest in the keg another week or two..

 

[TheMilkMan]

obvious alcohol flavor, clove, home brew twang...this all points to fermentation temp.

 

[wardens355]

Fermentation temperature seems like it could be high, especially if you are getting a 'hot alcohol' flavor. I would recommend pitching yeast around 60F and then trying to hold the liquid temperature to low to mid 60s. Maybe try a swamp cooler and check temperature a few times a day (a fermentation freezer with temp controller is better, with probe taped to side of carboy under insulation).

Also, do you clean your equipment with bleach?

Here are some descriptors of common off-flavors and potential causes:
Palmer - Common Off Flavors
MoreBeer - Off Flavors

 

[Braufessor]

I may have missed it, but what is the description of the small and flavor you are attempting to eliminate (presumably)?

THis^^^^^ You never actually said what this "flavor" or "smell" is....... plastic? Band aid? Cardboard? Green Apple..... really need more info before anyone has a chance to help you pin point it.

 

[vincentAlpha]

Are you treating your water at all for chlorine or chloramines? Depending on where you are concentrations can fluctuate throughout the year according to run off and other environmental factors. Might explain why your new batch didn't match your previous attempt. Also did you adjust your recipe for the different SG of the wort if you might have changed it by doubling the recipe (2x the extract in the same volume will result in a different level of hop utilization).

 

[catsnbeer]

I went through a similar evolution before I started making beer I was proud of - these are a few things I found to be key: The first thing is to brew great recipes that have been tested and shared by others. This is key for dialing in your process. HBT is great source of recipes, there are some fantastic recipes on this forum.

The second is use good practices and processes. For example: chilling your wort in a freezer is probably not as good as rapidly chilling your wort with a immersion chiller. Be sure that you are always aware of volumes, losses and inefficiencies. Once you get a stable system, then practice (drink) practice (drink) practice (drink).

Lastly, clean your equipment...scrub with hot water and PBW and then clean it again...and then sanitize it.

You dont have to switch to all-grain brewing, but I recommend it. Sure you have to buy some equipment and learn more stuff, but I think it makes brewing more fun. Plus it allows you to control almost every step of the system. If you really like brewing (and drinking)...go for it! Good luck! Youll get there if you stick with it.

 

[riderkb]

If you have done several beers that all have the same off flavor then it is probably a fermentation issue. Infection, low oxygen, under pitch, over temp would be the primary suspects. Second tier problems would be things like too much crystal malt and adding spices to your beer or attempting a continuously hopped chocolate hibiscus imperial saison. Any of the above can make homebrew taste like ass.

 

[soccerdad]

As others have said, a more detailed description of the taste you don't like will be very helpful.

Ferm temp is certainly something to look at - and remember that the beer itself can easily be 5 to 10 degrees higher than the ambient air temp when it is vigorously fermenting.

I would also read up on the idea of adding a large part of your extract - like 50% or more - late in the boil - like the last 5 minutes. That can reduce the 'homebrew twang' if that is what the taste is that you are not liking.

say more ....

 

[catsnbeer]

IMHO - trying to pin down a specific taste and identify a specific cause for it will lead the OPer down a path paved with usually useless anecdotes. If you consistently make beer you aren't happy with then you should consider stabilizing you process and recipes as I mentioned earlier.

If the original OPer had made a weird tasting batch and he/she had 10 years of brewing beer they enjoyed under their belt, than this might warrant investigation into a specific off flavor and its origins.

Just my 2 cents!

 

[WayFrae]

I think your most likely culprit is your water. Since you are brewing extract, just either buy some distilled water or some reverse osmosis water (the kind sold in a machine at the grocery store). Since the extract was made with the proper mineral concentrations adding tap water could be making your beer taste minerally and the chlorine in the tap water could be giving a band aid flavor.

TL,DR: Brew the same recipe with distilled or reverse osmosis water and report back.

 

[Hang Glider]

echoing...
two things come to mind - water and temperature.

1) water - you don't have to go to extremes and get distilled water and add minerals and salts - just make sure YOUR water is free of chlorine or chloramines. Personally, I just spring for spring water and write off the cost of it as part of making my own beer.

2) temperature - the yeast will kick up the temperature of your wort easily 10° over ambient. I've measured 10°. I've read a post of a guy that measured 16°F. So if you're keeping the room at 68°F, your beer is fermenting the first active phase at 78°F ! Put that pail/carboy in a large tub of water as high/deep as you can, and drop an indoor/outdoor thermometer into the pool. Keep that water at 64-68°F

 

[Qhrumphf]

Lots of good suggestions here. As mentioned, describing what this off flavor is will narrow it down.

Are you making starters with your 5 gallon batches using liquid yeast, or rehydrating dry yeast? Underpitching can cause off-flavors. Also nothing about aeration. Insufficient aeration, especially when combined with underpitching and higher fermentation temps, can lend off flavors, including boozy notes.

However, I'll wager a guess that the guys suggesting water are right. If you're using tap water, my guess is chlorophenols from chlorine/chloramine, which will give you a plasticy medicinal astringent note. I notice them in a LOT of beers I judge in competitions, as well as beers from newbies in my club. Anyone using straight tap water can get them. I used to get them as well until I started treating my water with campden tablets (your homebrew shop should sell them, often with winemaking supplies). 1 crushed tablet per 20 gallons brewing water (not batch size but water, so depending on your equipment and process somewhere between 5 and 10 gallons for a 5 gallon batch) a couple minutes before you use it and you're good to go. Alternatively, you can filter your water. Or just buy water.

 

[HBKidJr]

Approx 3 weeks is extremely green..
Let it rest in the keg another week or two..

Yeah, I figured that. Like I said, I'm used to bottling, which leaves me at 5-6 weeks before I try the finished product.

Fermentation temperature seems like it could be high, especially if you are getting a 'hot alcohol' flavor. I would recommend pitching yeast around 60F and then trying to hold the liquid temperature to low to mid 60s. Maybe try a swamp cooler and check temperature a few times a day (a fermentation freezer with temp controller is better, with probe taped to side of carboy under insulation).

Also, do you clean your equipment with bleach?

I don't use bleach. I clean with PBW and sanitize with StarSan.

THis^^^^^ You never actually said what this "flavor" or "smell" is....... plastic? Band aid? Cardboard? Green Apple..... really need more info before anyone has a chance to help you pin point it.

I've got a fresh glass with me right now. It's hard to explain. I've been drinking "good" beer for years, even have a review show on YouTube, and this is one of those smells I just can't pick out. Maybe a slight green apple mixed with alcohol, with a burst of yeast aroma? If this was a hefe, I'd say it smelled accurate, but I used Irish Ale yeast for an Irish Ale. Flavor seems to be mellowing out gradually. Malt is picking up. Still tastes a bit yeasty. Maybe not enough maltiness?

Are you treating your water at all for chlorine or chloramines? Depending on where you are concentrations can fluctuate throughout the year according to run off and other environmental factors. Might explain why your new batch didn't match your previous attempt. Also did you adjust your recipe for the different SG of the wort if you might have changed it by doubling the recipe (2x the extract in the same volume will result in a different level of hop utilization).

No treatment. I'm using bottled spring water, and have for every single one of my batches.

I use BrewToad for my recipe calculator. Everything came out within the limits of my desired style (Irish Ale).

I went through a similar evolution before I started making beer I was proud of - these are a few things I found to be key: The first thing is to brew great recipes that have been tested and shared by others. This is key for dialing in your process. HBT is great source of recipes, there are some fantastic recipes on this forum.

I started out making kits. Now my normal method is taking a recipe and putting a little twist on it. Maybe change the hops used, or change one of the specialty grains.

The second is use good practices and processes. For example: chilling your wort in a freezer is probably not as good as rapidly chilling your wort with a immersion chiller. Be sure that you are always aware of volumes, losses and inefficiencies. Once you get a stable system, then practice (drink) practice (drink) practice (drink).

Lastly, clean your equipment...scrub with hot water and PBW and then clean it again...and then sanitize it.

You dont have to switch to all-grain brewing, but I recommend it. Sure you have to buy some equipment and learn more stuff, but I think it makes brewing more fun. Plus it allows you to control almost every step of the system. If you really like brewing (and drinking)...go for it! Good luck! Youll get there if you stick with it.

Nah, that was a one time thing. I always use my chiller, except for that one moment. I'd moved a fridge out to my garage and I thought I'd give it a try. Lesson learned.

I use PBW for all my (very thorough) cleaning, then sanitize with StarSan. Thanks for the info!

If you have done several beers that all have the same off flavor then it is probably a fermentation issue. Infection, low oxygen, under pitch, over temp would be the primary suspects. Second tier problems would be things like too much crystal malt and adding spices to your beer or attempting a continuously hopped chocolate hibiscus imperial saison. Any of the above can make homebrew taste like ass.

I've been leaning to ferm. temps. The one I have going now, I'm keeping at an ambient temperature of 62. Temperature of the fermenter is 64, so internal is probably 69. Before I sat down to type this up, I actually turned the heater in the garage down, so I'm hoping I get the room down to 60 and the internal down to 65-66.

I don't think recipe is the issue, as I'm usually just taking well known recipes and changing a very small detail to make it my own. Before I was doing that, I was doing kits down to the letter.

As others have said, a more detailed description of the taste you don't like will be very helpful.

Ferm temp is certainly something to look at - and remember that the beer itself can easily be 5 to 10 degrees higher than the ambient air temp when it is vigorously fermenting.

I would also read up on the idea of adding a large part of your extract - like 50% or more - late in the boil - like the last 5 minutes. That can reduce the 'homebrew twang' if that is what the taste is that you are not liking.

say more ....

For most of my "new" recipes, I have indeed been adding my extract later in the boil. I have a cream stout fermenting now where I added my DME in the last 10 minutes and my lactose in the last 5 minutes.

TL,DR: Brew the same recipe with distilled or reverse osmosis water and report back.

I use bottled spring water for all of my batches. A drop of city water never touches it.

QUOTE=Hang Glider;6656162]temperature - the yeast will kick up the temperature of your wort easily 10° over ambient. I've measured 10°.[/QUOTE]

I think that's common consensus in here. Like I said, I've got the fermenter in my 60 degree garage, fermenter reads 63 on the side. Is there any basis on needing to move the fermenter to a warmer location after it's completed fermentation?

Are you making starters with your 5 gallon batches using liquid yeast, or rehydrating dry yeast? Underpitching can cause off-flavors. Also nothing about aeration. Insufficient aeration, especially when combined with underpitching and higher fermentation temps, can lend off flavors, including boozy notes.

Making starters using liquid yeast, White Labs. What's the best way to aerate? I've been stirring the hell out of it before I add the yeast.

Water: I buy spring water.

Your 2.5 gallon batch that came out good - was it a full volume boil? If it was, your issue is the top off water.

As stated above, don't make weird beer. Pick some dead solid reliable recipes for simple beers and refine your process. Eliminate as many variables as possible. I would highly recommend using S05 or similar dry yeast to eliminate potential issues with liquid / starter / etc.

In my opinion, there's a few main things that drive beer quality:
1. Fermentation temperature
2. Basic sanitation
3. Yeast health and viability
4. Patience

Haha, maybe I've answered your questions in this long reply I've written up. If not:

1. I think this is the main issue.
2. Most likely a non issue. I'm pretty OCD about this step.
3. I'll try a dry yeast next time. The "good half batch" was a single vial of Irish Ale Yeast (White Labs). I made a starter with the same type of yeast for this one to double my viability hoping to perfectly replicate it.
4. Another big thing, I think. I believe some age on this will mellow out the off flavors. As I said, this is only the second batch I've kegged, and I've been rushing it by force carbing. The previous batch I described that I made for Christmas was probably just a few different issues (slow chilling, warm fermentation, no starter, too much clove, etc.).

 

[paperairplane]

Your 2.5 gallon batch that came out good - was it a full volume boil? If it was, your issue is the top off water.

As stated above, don't make weird beer. Pick some dead solid reliable recipes for simple beers and refine your process. Eliminate as many variables as possible. I would highly recommend using S05 or similar dry yeast to eliminate potential issues with liquid / starter / etc.

In my opinion, there's a few main things that drive beer quality:
1. Fermentation temperature
2. Basic sanitation
3. Yeast health and viability
4. Patience

 

[HBKidJr]

For anyone wondering, here's the recipe in question:

6.0 lb Liquid Malt Extract - Light
12.2 oz CaraRed (DE)
12.2 oz Caramel/Crystal 40L (US)
3.0 oz Special B (BE)
2.0 oz Roasted Barley (UK)

1.0 oz Cascade (US) 30 min
1.0 oz Fuggle (UK) 3 min

White Labs WLP004

I steeped the grains at 155 for 30 minutes in 4 gallons of bottled spring water.
Boiled for 30 minutes.

Chilled and pitched the yeast (starter) at 65 degrees.

Fermented fast and hard for 3 days. Let it sit for 3 weeks total.

Just smells and tastes sort of "yeasty".

 

[JLeuck64]

I feel for ya man! I spent over a year working those extract batches trying to get rid of that "TWANG" taste you speak of. I know it well and have mentioned it to others who have brewed or tasted batches from extract. One common theme that emerges is this, it seems like darker beers made from extract are better tasting than lighter beers such as ambers or blondes etc...

I tried all the typical things searching for better tasting beer. Used bottled spring water, distilled water, my own well water.... bought a larger kettle and went to full boils, made an immersion chiller... dealing with that much liquid was such a pain! Tried using liquid extract and dry extract from different suppliers too. I let batches age, and age, and age some more... After watching another buddy brew an all grain batch I realized I was not that far from making the switch for I had been mini mashing with steeping grains all along through 28 batches with extracts.

So I committed to all grain and noticed a big change from that very first batch! Now all those lighter beers that used to leave me disappointed taste SO much better that it's really hard to wait for them to age ( ;

Only regrets I have is not switching to all grain sooner

 

[jsprinceiii]

Fermentation temp looks fine for WLP004.
Did you record your OG, and FG?

 

[WayFrae]

Did you switch brands of spring water? Not all spring water has the same mineral content.

 

[joshesmusica]

i'm going plus one on the temps. it sounds like this time your temps are under control, so please report back about how this one tastes. the reason why hefes have that taste is that they are ferment in the low 70s range, which lets the yeast give off those flavors. in a red ale and the stout that you mentioned, you are hoping for more of the malt flavors to come out, and not flavors from the yeast, per se. So i'm interested in how this last one turns out that you've got fermenting lower.
if you still have the problem in this one where you have temps under control, then i'll have to plus one on the extract being the culprit. if you have the capacity, switch to all grain. or even better, since you do have a 5-gallon BK (right?), then go for a small BIAB all-grain brew, simply to check. here's a great article which helps describe the switch, and even the amount of grains you'll be able to use with your equipment.

http://byo.com/light-ale/item/2543-converting-to-partial-mash

just scroll to the chart in the middle, and check how much wort it yields. ignore the OG as that is considering top off water and adding extract. it's just a good chart for figuring out how much grains to use for the size that you're shooting for.

 

[jwalk4]

Do you know anyone around you that brews? If so, invite them over to assist on a batch; get their opinion on where and what temp you ferment at; have them taste your beer and get their thoughts on that too! Or search out your local brewclub, if you have one.

If I can offer one more suggestion, aside from what has been said, it is this: Get back to basics! I haven't seen the recipe for your vanilla gingerbread stout, but it seems pretty involved with the spice additions and the yeast starter. Try a simple, tried and true extract (with steeping grains) recipe, and sprinkle some dry yeast on it. PBW and Starsan everything.

When you are ready to make an upgrade in equipment (not that you have to) spend a few bucks on controlling fermentation temps. Swamp cooler, old fridge + temp controller, Cool Zone temp control from gotta-brew, or the FTSS temp control lid from SS brew tech.

 

[beerkench]

Are you really sure sanitation isn't an issue? The fact that your first batch (using new equipment?) was good, and then the rest crap could mean you have some nasties lurking about somewhere. A good way to tell is get rid of the gas in your beer and recheck your FG. If it's really low then this can point to some wild yeast.


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

 

[Braufessor]

For anyone wondering, here's the recipe in question:

6.0 lb Liquid Malt Extract - Light
12.2 oz CaraRed (DE)
12.2 oz Caramel/Crystal 40L (US)
3.0 oz Special B (BE)
2.0 oz Roasted Barley (UK)

Two things I notice about your recipe -

*Use DME instead of Liquid. I think the general consensus is that DME holds up much better and LME is much more likely to give you problems because of age/oxidation/etc. (Use lightest you can find)

*That is a fair amount of caramel......1.75lbs+........ that could add some rather strong sweet/cloying type flavors. Especially when using LME also.

Recipe - try something really straight forward...... basically a basic american pale ale. Use DME base, maybe steep 1/2lb of caramel 40 or something for a bit of color. Simple hopping..... like maybe use 7C's blend. Use straight forward 1056/american ale yeast.... That is a good fermenter.
That will give you an easy, cheap, fast beer to turn around and evaluate some of the new things you are trying.

Water - I think you are good on water, but I would try a batch with Reverse Osmosis water.... from those refill stations. You really don't know what is in "spring water" and since you are using extract, you really don't need the minerals that are in the spring water. RO water is a blank slate basically. And, it is usually cheaper than spring water anyway.

Also - Sanitation - Are you bottling? Are you taking the spigot on your bottling bucket completely apart? Are you taking your auto siphon apart? Grab a new section of tubing perhaps. Generally sanitation issues are almost always in places like spigots, tubing, keg line, valves, siphons, etc....make sure all that stuff is getting taken apart.

 

[Qhrumphf]

the reason why hefes have that taste is that they are ferment in the low 70s range, which lets the yeast give off those flavors.

Hefes have the flavors they do because of the yeast strain. I ferment my Hefes (and Dunkelweizens, and Weizenbocks) at 62. Fermentation temp is only one variable. If you ferment most ale strains in the 70s you may get a hint of banana (most yeasts produce isoamyl acetate) but you shouldn't get clove (very few yeasts produce 4-vinyl quaiacol).

if you have the capacity, switch to all grain. or even better, since you do have a 5-gallon BK (right?), then go for a small BIAB all-grain brew, simply to check. here's a great article which helps describe the switch, and even the amount of grains you'll be able to use with your equipment.

If you're getting off-flavors in your extract beers and you're using fresh ingredients, it's a process problem. Switching to all-grain will not fix it, and it might actually make it worse. There are limiting factors to extract brewing, primarily in the limited availability of specialty extracts, and the ability to control fermentability. These can make brewing to style and winning medals in competitions more challenging, but they will not result in off-flavors. So point is, don't expect all-grain to fix anything, and don't move there until you get this situation figured out.

Do you know anyone around you that brews? If so, invite them over to assist on a batch; get their opinion on where and what temp you ferment at; have them taste your beer and get their thoughts on that too! Or search out your local brewclub, if you have one.

If I can offer one more suggestion, aside from what has been said, it is this: Get back to basics! I haven't seen the recipe for your vanilla gingerbread stout, but it seems pretty involved with the spice additions and the yeast starter. Try a simple, tried and true extract (with steeping grains) recipe, and sprinkle some dry yeast on it. PBW and Starsan everything.

When you are ready to make an upgrade in equipment (not that you have to) spend a few bucks on controlling fermentation temps. Swamp cooler, old fridge + temp controller, Cool Zone temp control from gotta-brew, or the FTSS temp control lid from SS brew tech.

I do not understand why people are objecting to yeast starters. And I emphatically 100% recommend against "sprinkle some dry yeast on it". For most all circumstances, yeast starters should me MANDATORY for liquid yeast, especially for new brewers who don't have their process dialed in enough to start mucking about with changes to pitching rates. And "sprinkling dry yeast on it" kills 50% of your yeast. The dry yeast need to be rehydrated in water first. Every single time. In either case, you're probably underpitching, and that will do just as much for off flavors as poor temperature control.

Other than that, this is generally on point.

Are you really sure sanitation isn't an issue? The fact that your first batch (using new equipment?) was good, and then the rest crap could mean you have some nasties lurking about somewhere. A good way to tell is get rid of the gas in your beer and recheck your FG. If it's really low then this can point to some wild yeast.

This is also a good suggestion, especially if your beers seem over-carbonated. There's little cracks and crevices in both kegging and bottling that need to be dealt with, and usually involve taking things apart. Because spoilage microbes love to hide in those cracks and crevices.

 

[eric19312]

+1 on temperature control
+1 on treatment for chlorine / chloramines

Naming flavors is not easy. I never understood bandaid...who eats bandaids anyway?

I would not sanitize with bleach...get some star san for that.


Regarding fermentation control While Labs says 65-68 for WLP004. I've not used that yeast but that is a pretty low range. Also it seems to be known for fermenting quickly as in your experience. A quick fermenting yeast will throw off a lot of heat in those first few days so without active temperature control you are going to have a hard time keeping it in optimal range. The problem is compounded as the yeast will ferment faster and harder the hotter they get, generating more and more heat. The larger your fermenter the more this is a problem.

If active temperature control is not an option for you then you might want to look for something with a wider and higher range like wlp001 or wlp023. Try to keep it on cool side of the optimal temp so if it does spike a bit it stays in optimal band.

 

[joshesmusica]

If you're getting off-flavors in your extract beers and you're using fresh ingredients, it's a process problem. Switching to all-grain will not fix it, and it might actually make it worse. There are limiting factors to extract brewing, primarily in the limited availability of specialty extracts, and the ability to control fermentability. These can make brewing to style and winning medals in competitions more challenging, but they will not result in off-flavors. So point is, don't expect all-grain to fix anything, and don't move there until you get this situation figured out.


I do not understand why people are objecting to yeast starters. And I emphatically 100% recommend against "sprinkle some dry yeast on it". For most all circumstances, yeast starters should me MANDATORY for liquid yeast, especially for new brewers who don't have their process dialed in enough to start mucking about with changes to pitching rates. And "sprinkling dry yeast on it" kills 50% of your yeast. The dry yeast need to be rehydrated in water first. Every single time. In either case, you're probably underpitching, and that will do just as much for off flavors as poor temperature control.

Other than that, this is generally on point.



This is also a good suggestion, especially if your beers seem over-carbonated. There's little cracks and crevices in both kegging and bottling that need to be dealt with, and usually involve taking things apart. Because spoilage microbes love to hide in those cracks and crevices.

you're right in the design of the yeast strain. but at certain temps yeasts can still give off a wide array of off-flavors. the ones quoted in the link are what it sounded like he was tasting.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-1-3.html

in other words, he's getting a twangy sort of taste, from what i was reading. while i agree that his process might need to be fine-tuned (because i'm sure there's aspects of many of our processes that need to be fine-tuned), i think looking into the idea of the extract twang is something worth doing. especially because there is no way he's guaranteed with the freshest extract out there, and especially when he's already altered some things according to the advice on this thread (or already doing what people suggested).

as far as the sanitation, you're quoting somebody, saying it's a good suggestion, but when he's responding to misunderstood information. the OP never said he bought new equipment, then had his best beer, then had more bad beers. he said he started brewing. had weird off-flavors. so he gave it a rest. he then started up again randomly, and had his best brew yet. after that he had more bad brews. not really sure where in that bit of information you got sanitation. in fact in the OP, he mentioned that he didn't think sanitation was an issue, meaning, he's probably doing his best to over-sanitize everything, considering that's usually the first bit of advice given to new brewers.

not trying to detract from the thread with arguments, it's just that at this point in threads, often people only read a few of the comments (not assuming that was you necessarily), then start giving advice based on half the story.

if he's capable (and willing according to the OP), why not do a small all-grain batch? yes there are more steps and things to worry about in there, but he's got a lot of processes down by now. he's not completely new and just wanting to make some cheap beer. BUT because the one big thing in the process that sticks out is temp control during fermentation, that's why i suggested that one first.

but maybe if we all just wait until he can report back on "this one he has going now" that he did a pretty good job (it seems like) of controlling temps. if the flavor persists, then we could go from there?

 

[jwalk4]

I do not understand why people are objecting to yeast starters. And I emphatically 100% recommend against "sprinkle some dry yeast on it". For most all circumstances, yeast starters should me MANDATORY for liquid yeast, especially for new brewers who don't have their process dialed in enough to start mucking about with changes to pitching rates. And "sprinkling dry yeast on it" kills 50% of your yeast. The dry yeast need to be rehydrated in water first. Every single time. In either case, you're probably underpitching, and that will do just as much for off flavors as poor temperature control.

Other than that, this is generally on point.

Yeast starters are essential for liquid yeast; you'll receive no argument from me there. Sure, re-hydration is an important, albeit anecdotally debatable, step in yeast health. But my point was that if you are struggling to resolve your beer woes, then is simplicity is your friend. If sanitation is in question, liquid yeast adds an unnecessary step if you are just looking to make some good beer to get your confidence back.

 

[Braufessor]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS EXTRACT TWANG.

There is OLD EXTRACT that makes bad beers.

There are extract brewers who have FLAWS IN THEIR PROCESS.

There are poorly fermented extract beers and extract beers with bad recipes.

But, there is NO "Extract Twang."

GREAT extract beers can be brewed with proper ingredients, recipe and process.

 

[WayFrae]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS EXTRACT TWANG.

There is OLD EXTRACT that makes bad beers.

There are extract brewers who have FLAWS IN THEIR PROCESS.

There are poorly fermented extract beers and extract beers with bad recipes.

But, there is NO "Extract Twang."

GREAT extract beers can be brewed with proper ingredients, recipe and process.

I disagree. I believe that all extract beers have a certain flavor to them even if they are done properly. I think you are crazy if you think the process to make extract doesn't effect the flavor. If you take all or most f the water out of anything it changes the flavor drastically. I can say that I have had some really great extract brews but I can also taste that they are extract brews.