Infection, bad Brewing, or something else? (Pics)

[mrsducky]

Here is the gunk I found in my bottles after they were done carbonating. I would have titled this “infection in secondary” because I saw what I’m fairly certain is the same hunk beginning there, but my bottles aren’t gushing like the typical description of an infected beer. In fact, one has no carbonation at all! So I am not sure what it is.

I’ve brewed a few beers / ciders before and none of them were infected, but these two had issues as well as the beer I brewed before these. The wort tasted great coming out of the fermenter but after the bottling step seemed to deteriorate. I wondered if it was my equipment, but I use the same tubes to bottle and transfer so I don’t understand why it would only seem to take hold on the second step?

More details —
2 beers I brewed for thanksgiving. First is a NB smashing pumpkin (added the pumpkin). Second was BIAB maple chocolate porter from Brooklyn brewshop. Both worts tasted very good and my efficiency was decent (don’t have notebook on me).

Both went through a primary for two weeks then secondary to help filter and clarify for three weeks. Cold crashed then bottled, for almost two weeks. Used carbonation drops (maybe that’s where the infection is being introduced?). Both tasted fantastic out of the fermenter.

When I opened the pumpkin there was absolutely no carbonation whatsoever. Just flat and very vinegary. Smelled somewhat off, not like a sewer but definitely not appetizing. Here is a picture of the gunk, which was somewhat present in the fermenter too.

And the beer in general

The porter was carbonated quite nicely, not gushing either. However there was a somewhat drying aftertaste, maybe a little astringent. Tasted halfway decent but just something ... off. And not at all similar to the wort. Strange feeling on the tongue after, and an odd smell too.

My sister described the smell and taste like when the soda machine runs out of syrup and you taste the CO2.

Bottle crud:

Beer in glass

Another odd thing is that the porter had a few little goopy particles in the fermenter that were pill-shaped, which immediately made me think “bacteria” but it doesn’t seem to have affected the beer quite as much as whatever is in the pumpkin.

These are the fourth and fifth beers I have brewed. Beers 1 and 2 turned out well (in terms of infections - no issues) and beer 3 had a few semi-gushers and bottles that seemed infected and had a sour aftertaste. Again, wort tasted good but after bottling not anymore.

Where am I going wrong? How can I diagnose the issue without spending tons of money on all new equipment?

Or do I just need a keg

Happy thanksgiving!!!!!

 

[BigCrazyAl]

When you say secondary, did you transfer the beer to another fermenter to clear it up? If so, this may be the part of the process that is suspect. This is removing the beer from a CO2 rich environment to a more O2 rich environment where bacteria can take hold.

On another note: can you describe your cleaning and sanitizing process for bottles and fermenters? What products do you use and how?

 

[mrsducky]

Secondary - yes a second fermenter. And it wasn’t a full gallon so I’m sure there was a lot more headspace than needed. All fermenters are glass.

Cleaning: oxyclean, hot water soak for 20-30 mins; sanitizing is starsan. Soak for 5-10 mins. Bottles I use a bottle brush first to get solids out but I am wondering if I do a good enough job.

I also don’t cover the bottles as they sit out to dry (maybe 10 mins total while I’m removing the bottles and getting everything set up).

For tubes, I soak in the solution and then use the auto siphon to pump it through. Siphon gets disassembled and soaked as well.

 

[BigCrazyAl]

Sounds like exactly what I do minus transferring to secondary. It's a widely debated subject but for the most part I don't see many people using a secondary fermenter unless it's a fruit beer or they are aging it for a loooong time.

I keep mine in primary for up to 4 weeks without any issues then transfer to bottling bucket and bottle it.

 

[mrsducky]

Yeah - I did it because the last few batches tasted pretty yeasty. Maybe there are other ways to compensate for that, though.

 

[BigCrazyAl]

Yeah - I did it because the last few batches tasted pretty yeasty. Maybe there are other ways to compensate for that, though.

I've noticed that if I drink the beer too soon. It will usually be a bit yeasty in the first couple weeks it's carbing but after 3-4 weeks in the bottle it's usually good to go. Always refrigerate for a few days if you can (24h minimum) to cold crash the bottles and get the leftover yeast to drop to the bottom and compact the trub. When pouring, I usually stop once I see the sludge start moving toward the neck of the bottle to prevent it from adding that yeasty bite.

 

[RM-MN]

It's hard to see for sure from the pictures but it looks a lot like "yeast rafts" that the CO2 bubbles have carried to the surface. A taste will tell you more than the picture tells me. Take a hydrometer sample, then drink the sample.

 

[JonM]

Two weeks of bottle carbonation is not enough. I know the directions probably say two weeks, but 4-5 is usually what's needed.

Carbonation drops - how are you adding them? It's definitely a possible source of infection. Try boiling a measured amount of sugar in water and gently add and stir the solution into the whole batch right before bottling.

 

[madscientist451]

Secondary - yes a second fermenter. And it wasn’t a full gallon so I’m sure there was a lot more headspace than needed. All fermenters are glass.

Cleaning: oxyclean, hot water soak for 20-30 mins; sanitizing is starsan. Soak for 5-10 mins. Bottles I use a bottle brush first to get solids out but I am wondering if I do a good enough job.

I also don’t cover the bottles as they sit out to dry (maybe 10 mins total while I’m removing the bottles and getting everything set up).

Skip the secondary, you usually don't need it.
Soaking the bottles in hot water/oxyclean is not necessary if the bottles are already clean.
Any bottles you want to re-use should be rinsed immediately after the beer is emptied out.
Just get used to doing this and you won't have to think about it.
Hold the bottom of each bottle up to a bright light and look through the opening. If there is any crap in there fill the bottles with PBW solution and let them sit overnight.
In the morning clean with a bottle brush and hot water and inspect again. If the crud didn't come out, toss the bottle. You can keep PBW in a bucket and use it over and over.
On bottling day, use a bucket of star san and immerse the bottles. Pull the bottle out, dump the star-san back in the bucket and immediately fill with beer and cap.
Sources of infection are usually the bottling bucket, the sugar priming solution being added and any hoses/fittings.
Expect crud in the bottom of bottled conditioned beer bottles, its normal. As long as you rinse them out right after they are emptied, its not going to be a problem.
If the beer isn't carbontating, it just might need more time or maybe you didn't add the right amount of priming sugar.

 

[Drewed]

Just to eliminate one possibility cheaply, buy a couple of cases of new bottles. I have found that if only some of the bottles are funky, then the problem usually is with the bottle (carb drop, bottle washing, not sanitasing the cap...) Some bottles just seem to not get clean and need to be retired.

 

[madscientist451]

I'm way to cheap to buy bottles...LOL plus I suppose I buy too much commercial beer, there's always another variety pack that catches my eye....

 

[mrsducky]

@RM-MN no hydrometer around since we traveled for the holiday, unfortunately. If those are yeast rafts, are they normal for bottle carbonated beer? Or can they be avoided?

@JonM just dropping them straight into the sanitized bottle with my bare hands. Also was using a used package of them. I would like to move to sugar priming.

I think I will superclean some more bottles and replace my tubing, and avoid putting batches into secondary. Considering my batches that went well, neither of those were put into secondary.

Good to know about reusing PBW and starsan.

 

[BigCrazyAl]

@RM-MN no hydrometer around since we traveled for the holiday, unfortunately. If those are yeast rafts, are they normal for bottle carbonated beer? Or can they be avoided?

@JonM just dropping them straight into the sanitized bottle with my bare hands. Also was using a used package of them. I would like to move to sugar priming.

I think I will superclean some more bottles and replace my tubing, and avoid putting batches into secondary. Considering my batches that went well, neither of those were put into secondary.

Good to know about reusing PBW and starsan.

I feel like the carbonation drops may be the culprit. This is the only part of the process that I can think of where you can't really ensure sterilization. I recommend moving to batch priming. I was able to do this with gallon batches by siphoning into a stock pot that had the priming solution in it already (once it was cool after boiling). From there, I siphoned from the stock pot into bottles. You can prime the siphon with starsan which helps immensely with getting it started. It certainly is a bit more work but I vote you try this on the next batch to see if it gets rid of the possibility of infection.

 

[JonM]

@JonM just dropping them straight into the sanitized bottle with my bare hands. Also was using a used package of them. I would like to move to sugar priming.

That might be your vector, Victor. Definitely try sugar solution priming next time.

 

[mrsducky]

Don’t call me Roger!

Thanks, all. Sounds like a good plan moving forward [emoji482]

 

[applescrap]

How does it taste again, it looks ok to me. Yeast particulate is what it looks like.

 

[mrsducky]

Hard to describe really - porter ranged from “this is okay” to “kind of weird”. Pumpkin was kind of vinegary, and without carbonation that was a weird combo.

I’d love to get one of those “off flavor” kits so I can give better descriptions

 

[mrsducky]

But very glad to hear it looks more like yeast!

 

[ESBrewer]

Don't know what the stuff on the surface of your beer is but vinegary doesn't sound too good. Basicly, vinegar is the end product of reactions that involve oxygen and ethanol (either in the presence of bacteria or without). I noticed that you said that there was headspace in your secondary and this may be part of the problem. As I understand, headspace should always be eliminated if the beer is transferred to secondary fermenter. If there is any headspace after the fermentation has ceased, it means that the beer will be in contact with oxygen and this allows the oxidative reactions (that produce vinegar and may more unwanted compounds) to take place. It may also facilitate the growth of microbes.

If there's contamination in the beer, the sugars used for carbonation could be the source. I would not use these products because you can't really sanitize them unless you dissolve em in water and boil (not so handy).