infected but tastes ok?

[unionrdr]

Well,for some reason,I finally got a funky infection. Not sure how? I went to dry hop late last Saturday afternoon,& saw the ice pack sorta moldy stuff on top. But it had a few large lacto-like bubbles on it too. No spider webbing though. So I skimmed it,dropped in the dry hop sack that had been soaked in Starsan,& sprayed the surface with Starsan just as an experiment. Here's what it looks like now;
http://[URL=http://s563.photobucket.com/user/unionrdr/media/PICT0004_zpsdf2ab485.jpg.html] [/URL]
http://[URL=http://s563.photobucket.com/user/unionrdr/media/PICT0003_zps902eee48.jpg.html] [/URL] What looks like webby lines is rinkles in the gunk from opening it.
Last week gravity was 1.015,today,it's 1.012. Here's the glass I dumped the hydrometer sample in with what looks like yeast settling on the bottom;
http://[URL=http://s563.photobucket.com/user/unionrdr/media/PICT0005_zps9ca1dc1a.jpg.html] [/URL] It tastes a little bitter & green,but you can taste the hops. A bit of dryness in the mouth. But it basically tastes ok. I was thinking of bottling it at 2.3 volumes of co2,rather than 2.6 to allow for further fermentation actions. Any thoughts? I can't make up my mind what to do,as I hate to dump a pricy batch...

 

[Renegades_Brew]

Let it ride.

 

[unionrdr]

It's been in there since 9/18,so that's 4 weeks & one day. It didn't want to settle out nice,so I gave it more time. Following week I went to dry hop & saw the ice pack with bigger lacto-like bubbles. Skimmed,dry hoped & sprayed surface with starsan. So much for that experiment. Was gunna bottle Saturday...may have to bottle tomorrow so it's in bottles with only co2.
I was wondering if that'd help the situation?r might stiffle them some?...

 

[elatowski]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you mean by "ice pack"?

 

[unionrdr]

It's a certain infection (mold?) that looks like broken pack ice on the lake when winter ice starts breaking up in the spring. Had larger lacto-like bubbles on it...a few anyway. I didn't get a pick of that one the day I opened it to dry hop for a week.

 

[unionrdr]

Well after a discussion with James at midwest,I guess it's time to let it ride & see if the yeast settles out again. He agreed it's a tuff call at this point,since atm it tastes ok. After aouple more days,it starts tasting off,then it's a dumper. It'd be my 1st one. He gave me this link that was an interesting read; http://perfectpint.blogspot.com/2012/03/infected.html
It seems that once something porous gets lacto in it,it's best not to use it for other beers,if at all again. I may just pitch the ale pail & get the shorter,wider one I made a bottling bucket out of in my gadget videos. I already have another italian spigot brand new to use?...

 

[WileECoyote]

Hello, Sorry to hear about your infection, If you want to try reusing your plastics you can try soaking them in Hydrogen Peroxide/Water mixed @ 50/50 for 3 days, I have done with good success.

The majority of people here say to throw all contaminated plastics away or dedicate it to doing sours only.

And a few people here claim they use infected equipment (sprayed with StarSan) for non sour beers all the time with no cross contamination what so ever, this didn't work for me.

Makes it confusing what to do to say the least.

If you do try the Hydrogen Peroxide I would suggest also try fermenting a small test batch in your fermenter to make sure it comes out clean.

I just wanted to pass on another option.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

 

[dstranger99]

Damn, that really does look like an infection, I'd dump it........Or on second thought maybe let it ride for a month and see how it looks, smells, etc ....

 

[WileECoyote]

If it dose become sour you can age it for a year and just might end up with a great sour.

just another option instead of dumping it.

Cheers

 

[unionrdr]

Being a 6.5 gallon fermenter,some 3 gallons of hydrogen peroxide could be costly if I could find that much. not to mention windin up having the cops asking questions the way peopl are around here. James at midwest suggested using starsan in it after cleaning. But I'm not sure that'd be enough to kill a lacto infection after soaking it in PBW. The study mentioned in the link says it soaks in to porous materials. I wonder how much it soaks into plastic?
Def a tuff call on saving or tossing it. I don't wanna wind up with infected bottles too. I just wish I'd have remembered to use the super moss towards the end of the boil & I wouldn't have spent the extra time trying to clear it. It was a OG1.074 brew that got down to 1.015 but still hazy to the point of being almost cloudy. Idk...maybe I forgot to remove clean & sanitize the spigot? I hate to dump it,but the ale pail,sealess lid & hop bag are def goin south. And it's my understanding that Belgian sours are made with a mixture of cultured & wild yeasts?...

 

[WileECoyote]

I hear ya,

Just an FYI, I gathered my Hydrogen Peroxide from the $1 store, had to stop at 3 of them to get enough, the cost was around $25 for the amount I picked up, I wanted to soak hoses and fermenter separate from each other, but soak them at the same time.

Also any equipment that has come in contact with the cooled wort has the potential to contaminate your next batch too, including kettle, fermenter, hydrometer, airlock, etc, just some food for thought, Id hate to see you overlook one small item and crap up your next batch too, I made that mistake.

Mine started in the bucket valve too.

I really hope you have an easy time getting rid of it.

Cheers

 

[unionrdr]

What hacks me off is the fact that I remove,clean,scrub & sanitize the spigots & parts everytime I use them. I guess I got in a hurry this time? Not sure if I did or not. Kettle & hydrometer have been scrubbed,soaked,etc already. I should be fine there anyway. I mixed up some more PBW & Starsan as well. I got a 66" X 3/8" line cleaning brush from Keg Connection to clean my longer lines with. So a bucket & some PBW with that long brush & a good sanitizing should help there. Glad I got that long brush now!
This lil episode is proof positive NOT TO GET LAZY with your procedures to get good,clean beer. I'll not make that mistake again. And to think it all started with forgetting the super moss in the boil. Then the Ale Pail (BB) with no lid seal. Then sitting in it for amonth. Even James at Midwest told me those pails don't make good secondaries,which is kinda what happened. Being a primary fermenter sitting that long turned out to be like using it as a secondary,from a certain point of view. No lid seal equals getting jacked in certain situations...

 

[patthebrewer]

Forgive me for my ignorance by why aren't you just using a bleach solution for disinfection, is way cheaper, and easier than hdyro peroxide. I've used a bleach solution to disinfect(when they've actually needed it...rare) my stainless fermenters, and kegs etc. followed by a good rinse, and sanitation with Star San.


Also IMHO 9 times out of ten an infection caused by your equipment usually starts with your hoses. Frankly as cheap as hose is, I keep extra. After a couple batches when they start looking "Used" I toss em and start fresh.

 

[jonmohno]

Heres some thoughts,looks exactly like my infections ive had. Make especially shure your bucket and tubing and valves is clean or replaced and not skratched. Did you have a good seal? Were your hands clean when handling the muslim sac of hops? How did you sanitize it? I usually boil hop sacks,then use sanitized rubber gloves and making shure of anything those gloves touch is sanitized also when handling the hop bag,no touching doors or anything that you are touching before that bag gets to the feremter. I belive that buckets are more vaunerable to infections,I baby buckets-nothing goes in them besides a soft cloth cleaner or sanitizer or beer/wort. Dont use them to store anything or even sanitize things in them. All it takes is one microscratch to infect a whole batch.

Ive racked the batches Ive had off of this and try to do it without getting that top layer in. And pitch tubing or clean the bejesus out of everything if you use it over again. And maybe consider changing the bucket or valves.

My theory on this type of infection from my experinece is that it may not survive without oxygen in the bottle and to keep temps pretty low and enough to carb up then keep temps low and check on bottles weekly. Ive also recently discoverd/learned that lacto infections are shy around hops-so you may still have a decent beer and it may disapear or hell maybe make it good. If your going to bottle it watch for overcarbontion. Maybe add a little less priming sugar than normal. Ive also bottled these batches within a few weeks and not letting it ride like some suggest,when they are still tasting good.Ive had good batches and some not so good and the very overcarbed werent exactly dumpable and not neccesarily good either. Kinda belgiany and off.

And watch for overcarbonation .

If your like me I like to tuck away batches but still like to grab a bottle or two a week of a new bottled batch to check on any potetial overcarbonation. Ive found that some of my infected batches stabilized and I still have year+ old bottles of suspicious or obvious infected batches. Oh, and look at the tops of the bottles for that "skin"- Ive seen them disappear in the bottle before. Just be carefull the way Ive done it is still risky but I was consistant about attending to the few infected batches Ive had. If you get overcarb in a bottle then make shure another bottle is doing the same to confirm that the whole batch needs to get to the fridge immediatley. You dont want to get to the point where they are spraying out of the bottle, Ive gotten luckily as far as "creeping foamers" of carbontion.

Again keep your bottle conditoning temps on the low side,infections seem to like higher temps and oxygen(I think). If you have CO2 maybe blast some of that in the bottle bucket as well as the bottles to keep oxygen out,and oxygen caps would be a good idea also. Good luck,just be carefull bottle bombs are no joke.

If you bottle it you may end up drinking that batch sooner than you would like maybe -but thats better than a big mess of beer and glass everywhere or injuries. If your bottles clear also that can be a good sign with conditoning and no ring or flaky stuff on the surface of the beer in the bottles.

Another thing I think is a good idea is anybody using buckets with head space any longer than a few weeks and is opening it for any reason like dryhopping that it probably wouldnt be a bad idea to hit it with co2 before sealing it up and making shure you have a good seal for any extended conditioning. Im not shure if Im right about this but it seems logical in my experience that maybe these infections cant live in an enviornment witout oxygen--aka to much headspace or opening too much or wide mouth buckets/bad seals/extensive time.

Another thing I do for security purposes is to number each bottle. First beer out the bottle bucket may be safest to drink last and or aged longest. This has worked safely for me. So last beers out of the bottle bucket are drank first. I drink say 24-1 with 1 being the last beer to drink of the batch. So i would drink bottles 24-20 with in the first month. And checking a bottle or two a week there after.
I do this because if the batch is infected this infection seems to live on top of the beers where the oxygen is so the last beers bottled are closest to the top sufaceof the beer where the majority of the infection is lingering.

 

[unionrdr]

Hmmm...where to start? I'm starting to think that this one time I didn't clean the spigot as I usually do. That could be it. Ale Pails (BB) don't have seals in the lid & none are sold to replace them. And I don't like sanitizing with bleach,sinse it must be rinsed & Starsan so far has done a great job. the poster mentioning hydrogen peroxide was refering to killing the infection on the equipment,not sanitizing with it pathebrewer.
My hands were clean & wet with Starsan when I soaked the bag & squeezed it out. While stil wet (fingers),I stretched the large bag over an open bowl to fill with the pellets before tying it off.
I'm also careful when cleaning the buckets. I soak them in water up to the top of the crud line with 3TBSP of PBW stired in till dissolved. I put the lid on loosely & soak till the next day or more if needed till it all soaks loose. Then i gently use my bottling brush to go over the inside lightly to be sure it all comes loose. No scratches,since the bristles are plastic as well. I run the cleaner through the spigots into a bucket to dump out so the spigot gets cleaned out as well. dito with rinse water. I then take out the spigot & soak-n-scrub them with aquarium lift tube cleaning brushes. rinse & soak in Starsan before cleaning the mounting hole as well. I reassemble it wet with Starsan.
I don't store or clean anything in my fermenters ever. That's asking for scratches. & it takes more than a microscopic scratch to infect a batch. You need a certain number of nasties to build a colony from. There are always a few of them in any batch of beer they say. READ THIS; http://perfectpint.blogspot.com/2012/03/infected.html
This on only got extra time in primary because it wouldn't settle out clear or slightly misty. It was very misty,as I forgot to use super moss in the boil,do to half the fermentables being fresh mashed wort. I get that if I don't super moss the batch. So it got extra time,& in an ale pail with no seal in the lid,that doomed it. I hadn't even dry hopped it yet & it was already infected.
Other times,I've gotten a little of this just barely starting at bottling time. So I racked out from under it & they were ok. I'm not so sure this time. I'll check it again in the morning to see if it settled out yet & what the gravity is.
It was 1.015 a week or so ago. 1.012 yesterday.
I was thinking if it still looks & tastes ok tomorrow morning that I'd go ahead & bottle it. Keeping it in the man cave where it's a lil cooler than upstairs where I usually keep them in colder weather months. The master Bedroom is the warmest room in the house. Good for carbing in winter. I'm going to dump the ale pail & the hop sack within. It's a large muslin grain bag from kits we've had. I'll just buy another one.
I'm going to JW Dover for another of the short wide buckets I made a bottling bucket out of in my gadget videos. They're 7.9 gallon,& they have it about 4 bucks cheaper than Midwest or NB. They have seals in the lid & airlock grommets fitted. I've got a new Italian red & white spigot already. I keep a loose eye on bottled batches in their covered boxes to see if they're clearing,etc. but not all the time. I prefer to leave'em be to do their thing till ready for fridge time. I am curious to see if the lack of o2 (I use o2 barrier caps & a bottling wand) lessens the lacto's effects & allows the yeast to take over. The yeast seems to be taking over in the bucket atm. It knocked off a few more points from 15 to 12,so we'll see in the morning.
I'd like to put a fitting on the lids to pump some co2 through into the head space till the airlock bubbles a little to be sure it stays safe. After initial fermentation & the airlock center piece settles down that is. I'm starting to get paranoid about that now. I have 5 gallons (19L) of a traditional stout in the Cooper's fermenter now. Just a couple days past initial fermentation. I've had good luck doing 5 gallon batches in that one. Even though it's designed for 23L (6.072USG).

 

[Blu3Ridge]

I would recommend using a glass carboy as your primary. I rack into kegs for secondary. Plastic once infected, is done.

 

[unionrdr]

Glass carboys are out. To heavy for me to move at my age,& they're brittle. What always bugged me about the BB Ale Pails is their lack of a lid seal. I get blow out & a little suck back from it during partial vacuum conditions. I'
ll save the airlock,but I'm thinking of tossing the bucket. I'm going to check it again today to see if it settle out & still tastes ok. But even my wife thinks it's a dumper. I taught her to brew a couple times,so she's familiar with the process. And I hate to get all that lacto stuff in my bottling equipment. Might just dump it...unless it tastes better than a couple days ago.
Or if I bottle it,use my line cleaning brush & PBW to clean the racking tube & bottling wand/tube,then use water & hydrogen peroxide 50/50 to disinfect them. Rinse & starsan after that. I just have to check it in a while. Cool again this morning,been cool around here this last few days. Fall def being here now might save it. Getting the yeast,etc to settle out So I can rack from under the gunk on top,& the settled stuff on the bottom.
Then I'll get another 7.9G shorter,wider bucket to ferment in like I made a bottling bucket out of in my gadget videos. It has a tight sealing seal ring in the lid.
The pails in question are here;
http://[URL=http://s563.photobucket.com/user/unionrdr/media/PICT0004_zpsef5e6404.jpg.html] [/URL]
The one on the left is the infected BB Ale Pail. The one on the right is the shorter 7.9G pail I use as a bottling bucket. I'm getting another one of the one on the right to ferment in. I'll just move the spigot hole higher up. I have another new Italian spigot like that one already. The tightly sealing lid seal on that one will be better. I read reviews on Midwest site where others had the same problem with the ale pail & switched to that one with better results.

 

[unionrdr]

**UPDATE- I just took about half a taster glass sample of the beer to compare to Fridays sample. Here's a mini pictorial;
Here's the hydrometer sample from last Friday;
http://[URL=http://s563.photobucket.com/user/unionrdr/media/PICT0005_zps9ca1dc1a.jpg.html] [/URL]
And the half glass sample from this morning;
http://[URL=http://s563.photobucket.com/user/unionrdr/media/PICT0001_zpsc93c0873.jpg.html] [/URL]
And the yeast settling to the bottom of the glass;
http://[URL=http://s563.photobucket.com/user/unionrdr/media/PICT0002_zps0c2640aa.jpg.html] [/URL]
It's back to slightly misty,with a lil aroma (I have a cold,so that's relative). The flavor is quite good with more NZ hop flavor coming through as normal for what I know this beer should taste like. A lil dry on the toungue,but not as bad as last Friday. HOORAH! :rockin: Gunna go ahead & bottle it today. Hopefully,it gets better in bottles full of co2?...

 

[unionrdr]

Ok,primed the Maori IPA (infected but settled) to 2.3 VCO2 rather than the usual 2.6 volumes to allow for possible lacto action in the bottles. I rather doubt it with the small head space & o2 barrier caps. but you never know.
I have to say,all the while I was bottling,it smelled of sweet malt & some hops,due to the priming solution no doubt. I tried my best to rack out from under the scum. but by God,that stuff can sink with little more provocation than a passing thought! But I got it pretty good anyway. Got 47 & 1/3 bottles to continue this experiment.