Increasing Steeping Grains in Extract Brewing

[SeaBassHanson]

So I am happily an extract brewer and have been brewing for somewhere around 2-3 years now. I almost always use steeping grains, and while I was formulating new recipes, and idea dawned upon me: I have never really been able to draw out nearly as much flavor as thought I should be from my steeping grains (steep for 30 minutes at around 155F).

One thing I plan on changing is to experiment with the amount of water I steep in. For example, I know that in all-grain brewing one generally has 1.25 qts of water per pound of grain. So, why not try the same concept (within reason of course) with steeping grains?

However, the BIG idea I had is this: when you use malt extract, you are pretty much getting 100% efficiency, provided 100% of what you measure actually makes it into the brew kettle. Generally speaking, a common efficiency for steeping grains is around 25-35%. Even if you are rocking it at 50%, that's still HALF of what the malt extract provides, or more likely a quarter to a third or so of what it provides.

Now, when one mashes via all-grain brewing, whatever his/her efficiency is, the efficiency of ALL OF THE GRAINS is the SAME (i.e. 75% efficiency of 2-row, caramel 40L, biscuit, etc.).

So, to recap, if you are doing an extract grain bill that is something like:

80% Light DME
15% Caramel 60L
5% Chocolate Malt

Wouldn't your efficiency for all of the fermentables in question really be something like this:

Light DME (100% Efficiency): .80X1=.80(80% of grain bill)
Caramel 60L (35% Efficiency): .15X.35=.0525(5.25% of grain bill)
Chocolate Malt (35% Efficiency): .05X.35.=.0175(1.75% of grain bill)

So, obviously when you do 80+5.25+1.75 you only get 87. You can't have a completed grain bill with only 87% of the grains. That means, the DME is making up the rest of it, so now, what you thought was the grain bill from above is in reality:

93% Light DME
5.25% Caramel 60L
1.75% Chocolate Malt

The above recipe was for a pretty basic brown ale. So, by my hypothesis, you thought you were getting a nice, malty and caramelly brown ale with a bit of chocolate, but in reality you are getting a watery and pretty weak ale without much character. Anybody agree, or any thoughts in general? My thought is to basically increase steeping grains threefold, so any thoughts on this topic would be GREATLY APPRECIATED.

 

[Chanoc]

Dumb question. ..
Are you crushing your steeping grains?

 

[ChelisHubby]

Well Mr Hanson I am slightly drunk so I won't check your math. THe reality is that the all grain flavor will be stronger than the steeping grain formula most of the time. But the steeping mash will have the flavors but they won't be as deep or intense. If you want more depth with the flavor go the mini mash route with a pound of 2 row in with the crystals to gain more flavors from the improved enzyme contribution.

 

[meatcleaver]

+1 for mini/partial mash

 

[SeaBassHanson]

Thanks for the replies so far. And yes I am crushing steeping grains. I concede that all-grain will always make things easier on you as far as extracting flavor and such, but I suppose what I am after is if anyone thinks that because there is a stark difference in extraction rate between the malt extract and grains that this significantly alters the malt bill in an extract recipe compared to what you THINK that you are getting?

 

[ChelisHubby]

The amount of difference is hard to notice unless you are drinking the all grain compared to the steeping grain and then you are more likely to notice the extract twang first!

 

[Brownalemikie]

Being a brown ale fan, I'm subscribing to this thread. Carry on brewers.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't know that you can attribute any efficiency numbers to steeping grains. The efficiency occurred during the process of making the extract.

IMO the extract is the brew and all the efficiency. The steeping grains are just flavor and color. If you are not getting the flavor you want you can either use different steeping grains or more steeping grains.

For a more complex blend of flavors a mini-mash is a pretty easy step to take. You will get more from the "steeping" grains at only the costs of a little more grain, a little more attention to temperature and time.

 

[Clavain46]

To add to this, what if one used a BIAB for just the steeping grains (a mini mash in a bag?). So you are basically mashing those grains and then adding the extract to that (removing the bag o grain, of course). Does this improve efficiency of what you get from those grains?