In Defense of a Secondary

[podz]

That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there.

There's nothing else sitting in there that hasn't been put in there.

Do you know how long it takes for a pile of yeast to die? You could let your beer sit on top of the yeast for a month, rack it and do another batch with the same slurry no problem.

How do you imagine that beer carbs up after sitting a few weeks in primary and a few more weeks in secondary before bottling? There is still plenty of alive yeast in there.

 

[madscientist451]

I ferment in a bucket with a spigot and drain it to a carboy when its ready.
I'm pretty lazy and its easier for me to clean out the primary fermentation mess from a bucket than clean my glass carboy. I haven't noticed any oxidation problems. Draining from the bucket also gives me an opportunity to check the gravity and do a taste test before I bottle.
There was a comment about a wife that "hates the hobby". All I can say is you should talk to her about it. Maybe she really doesn't hate brewing.
There's a good chance there's some other issue that's bothering her.
I'm divorced, so I can brew whenever I want, but I can't advocate trading divorce for the freedom to brew. Not trying to be preachy, just something to think about. Cheers!

 

[rpe290]

Ok. So in the interest of not having another poisonous thread. Here is my constructive contribution:

Use a bucket with a spigot as a primary. (many of you already have this)
Gently purge the head space of the bucket with co2 when you can.
Drain the bucket as you dare.

You could use a keging system with the regulator set low to just gently flush out the top of an open fermenter, or you could vent another batch that is just newly pitched into the now "secondary". One bung to another, but keep the lid *loose* on the second bucket, or have a second airlock.

Cheers
--Adam Selene

It just seems like a lot of work when I could literally "do nothing" instead. Not seeing the benefit yet--if there is no autolysis there is no benefit, correct?

 

[KendallAdkins]

There was a comment about a wife that "hates the hobby". All I can say is you should talk to her about it. Maybe she really doesn't hate brewing.
There's a good chance there's some other issue that's bothering her.
I'm divorced, so I can brew whenever I want, but I can't advocate trading divorce for the freedom to brew. Not trying to be preachy, just something to think about. Cheers!

She is just extremely cheap (maybe frugal is a nicer word?). She grew up really poor so she isn't used to being able to spend money. Also, she despises the smell of boiling wort and hops. I wasn't trying to portray her as a witch that never lets me do anything fun.

 

[Darwin18]

Ah, the old oxidation bogeyman. Is fear of "oxidation" really still a thing?

I'm going to echo Yooper, but yes many of the brews that I've judged have varying levels of oxidation. It's one of the more common off-flavors in competition.

I don't care if people use a secondary or not. I've found that there is no added benefit in my homebrewery for one so I don't use it anymore. There are tons of threads on this site where people tell others how exactly to brew - as long as you make good beer who cares how many vessels you used? I've never asked myself at a competition if the beer in front of me had a secondary or not.

 

[hunter_le five]

Really?



Adam Selene

Yes, really.

Just because the yeast has flocculated to the bottom doesn't mean it's "dead".


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[Kee]

I'm going to echo Yooper, but yes many of the brews that I've judged have varying levels of oxidation. It's one of the more common off-flavors in competition.

I don't care if people use a secondary or not. I've found that there is no added benefit in my homebrewery for one so I don't use it anymore. There are tons of threads on this site where people tell others how exactly to brew - as long as you make good beer who cares how many vessels you used? I've never asked myself at a competition if the beer in front of me had a secondary or not.

So is there any consensus as to whether the oxidation is caused by improper racking to secondary or bottling? And isn't the age of the batch one of the most important elements?

 

[j1n]

Really?

Adam Selene

lol is that all you have to say?

If you noticed, a lot of us are saying the same thing. That's cause we don't just do things that are told to us. we actually understand why certain processes are done and why some are unnecessary.

 

[fatcop]

Is there something magic that the beer can do in a secondary vessel that it can't do bottle conditioning on the shelf? If you are a bottler anyways aren't you just aging out fermentation off flavors to throw some sugar in the batch and have to age all over again?

 

[phyllobeddo]

Because I haven't brewed in 5+ years or so I just became aware of the "no secondary" revolution. I read a post about it on reddit that referenced John Palmer. Since then I've read a thread or two on here about it. No secondary sounds good to me. It will save me time, leave me more primaries, and eliminate more possibilities to oxidize or infect my beer. Now that I have kegs, I'll rack straight from the primary to the keg and then cold crash it. Brilliance! My recently brewed cream ale will go straight to the keg next weekend or maybe the next. Of course, it's all about experimentation and what works for you and your beer.

 

[MaddBaggins]

Is there something magic that the beer can do in a secondary vessel that it can't do bottle conditioning on the shelf? If you are a bottler anyways aren't you just aging out fermentation off flavors to throw some sugar in the batch and have to age all over again?

For me, the secondary is for my beers that take months to reach FG and/or develop the desired flavor profile. I don't want them in a bucket for months.
Otherwise I just primary only.


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[guitarguy6]

I always used a secondary when I bottled. Leave a week in primary and then transfer to secondary with the gelatin finings. My beer always came out clear with no sediment in the bottles. I finally got kegs and I think I'll stop using the secondary.

 

[Yooper]

"Isn't there a pile of dead yeast there also?"

Have you ever used a siphon?

Cheers
--Adam Selene

Believe it or not, I have been making wine for over 25 years, and am proficient with racking.

But even so, there is yeast and other sediment on the bottom of my secondary (if I use one). It doesn't magically go away, as it will continue to fall for a while. So even a lager may sit on a bit of trub as it lagers for 10-12 weeks. There may be less trub, but there is certainly some.

What makes THAT yeast not dead, but the first yeast that falls out dead? That isn't biologically possible. Sure, some are dead, some are dormant, some are active, etc, as they may be all in different stages but it's not like all of the yeast dies and gets bad tasting at one time.

It's true that leaving beer on the trub can impact the flavor, and some people find that pleasing while some do not. I am not one to leave most ales in the fermenter for more than about 10 days or so, mostly because my beer is clear by then and I don't care for the flavor imparted by the long primary. It's not autolysis, though- it's more of a yeast character.

 

[Teromous]

I ferment in a bucket with a spigot and drain it to a carboy when its ready.
I'm pretty lazy and its easier for me to clean out the primary fermentation mess from a bucket than clean my glass carboy. I haven't noticed any oxidation problems. Draining from the bucket also gives me an opportunity to check the gravity and do a taste test before I bottle.
There was a comment about a wife that "hates the hobby". All I can say is you should talk to her about it. Maybe she really doesn't hate brewing.
There's a good chance there's some other issue that's bothering her.
I'm divorced, so I can brew whenever I want, but I can't advocate trading divorce for the freedom to brew. Not trying to be preachy, just something to think about. Cheers!

This is one of the reasons I really want a conical. If I could find an inexpensive one that takes up about the same real estate as a 6 gallon carboy I would be set. Throw it in my fridge to cool while fermenting, dump the yeast from the bottom, throw some hops or cocao in through the top...

 

[podz]

This is one of the reasons I really want a conical. If I could find an inexpensive one that takes up about the same real estate as a 6 gallon carboy I would be set. Throw it in my fridge to cool while fermenting, dump the yeast from the bottom, throw some hops or cocao in through the top...

They've been pushing these for months for 90 bucks.

https://www.thefastrack.ca/main/fastferment

Only reason I don't have one is that they won't ship to Finland. They are supposed to have a distributor in Belgium, but I'm guessing that the price isn't going to be anywhere near that 90 bucks..

 

[jekeane]

This is one of those things that I have never been able to figure out. Every one wants to do a yeast starter-- nessesary or not. No one wants to do a secondary??? That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there. Why is it that homebrewers try to emulate profetional practices that they don't need to worry about, while disregarding those that they should be concerned with? Why is a 1 litre erlenmyer flask and stir bar/plate considered easy/usefull while a syphon rod is considered difficult/intimidateing? If we are too lazey to transfer the beer, how do we ever summon the energy to brew the beer in the first place? My answer to this issue is, go ahead and omit the secondary. You will probably get away with it for a good long time, but sooner or later lightning will strike. There are already plenty of potential lightning rods sticking out of any given batch, so why tempt mother nature with one more?

Cheers.
--Adam Selene

Not to pile on but... there is no pile of dead yeast unless you are talking several months in primary. Starters are about cell counts and proper pitching rates. One pack of 05 or a single vial isn't going to cut it a high OG beer. I don't know about you but I would rather mix $1 of DME and some water throw it in a starter with my 1 vial then spend another $6 to pitch two vials. The "lightning rod" of infection, oxidation, or some other mishap due to racking an unnecessary amount of times is far more likely to get struck then the practice of extended primary.

In the end do what you think works for you.

 

[Teromous]

They've been pushing these for months for 90 bucks.

https://www.thefastrack.ca/main/fastferment

Only reason I don't have one is that they won't ship to Finland. They are supposed to have a distributor in Belgium, but I'm guessing that the price isn't going to be anywhere near that 90 bucks..

Those came out years ago and I don't remember why but they never took off. If there's one thing I'm cautious about, it's a "reboot" of a product.

 

[j1n]

Those came out years ago and I don't remember why but they never took off. If there's one thing I'm cautious about, it's a "reboot" of a product.

probably because you have to mount something to the wall to use it. Also most of us use mini fridges or chest freezers as fermentation chambers and there isnt a way to use that fermentor with the fermentation chambers we use.

Also there are much better options than that plastic wall mounted conical fermentor.

 

[chawn]

probably because you have to mount something to the wall to use it. Also most of us use mini fridges or chest freezers as fermentation chambers and there isnt a way to use that fermentor with the fermentation chambers we use.

Also there are much better options than that plastic wall mounted conical fermentor.

That's why I don't have one. I use an old refrigerator for fermenting and a conical fermentor would take all my space.

 

[elkshadow]

I should have noted this on the first post, I have an extremely cheap wife that does not support my brewing hobby, so I can not purchase another primary at this time. Am I the only one with a wife that hates this hobby?

Go to a restaurant supply store. You can buy HDPE food grade 3.5 gallon buckets with lid for about 4 bucks each. Drill a hole in the lid for your airlock and you're all set. The one I go to has 4 gallon and 5 gallon and they are a little more but I think the 5 gallon ones are like 6 bucks with a lid.

I do 3 gallon all grain batches too. I have about 7 of these buckets. I never secondary. Too much work and risk.

 

[Yooper]

Go to a restaurant supply store. You can buy HDPE food grade 3.5 gallon buckets with lid for about 4 bucks each. Drill a hole in the lid for your airlock and you're all set. The one I go to has 4 gallon and 5 gallon and they are a little more but I think the 5 gallon ones are like 6 bucks with a lid.

I do 3 gallon all grain batches too. I have about 7 of these buckets. I never secondary. Too much work and risk.

I stopped in my local grocery store's bakery. They gave me (for free!) big buckets with lids that once held peanut butter, strawberry jam (for doughnut filling, I presume), and icing.

The only buckets you don't want are pickle or olive buckets, as you can't get the smell out of those.

I bet most stores would give them away, or sell for $1 or 2.

 

[chato]

I've been avoiding racking to secondary since the last porter I did tastes of wet cardboard, which I attributed to oxidation that occurred during racking. I could be wrong about the cause - it could have happened in the bottling stage I suppose - but that wet cardboard taste is horrible. I keep trying the bottles but usually end up pouring them down the drain.

 

[frozennorth]

My first wife was a controlling lady, that is why I got ride of her. I married an angel. She supports my brewing and mountain biking, but she is not a drinker and would never mountain bike.

I never secondary. Now I use the 5 gal carboy to make cider.

 

[elkshadow]

I stopped in my local grocery store's bakery. They gave me (for free!) big buckets with lids that once held peanut butter, strawberry jam (for doughnut filling, I presume), and icing.

The only buckets you don't want are pickle or olive buckets, as you can't get the smell out of those.

I bet most stores would give them away, or sell for $1 or 2.

Word. It seems like "buckets are cheap" is the resounding chorus in this thread.

 

[teach]

Yes. Most of the beers I've judged in competitions show signs of oxidation. Sometimes it's not too bad- more of a "sherry" flavor rather than the really severe oxidation sign of "wet cardboard", but many homebrews do show oxidation after a period of time. Some are not too bad, as in a barleywine which is expected to have signs of oxidation, but many are much more out of place.

That makes sense. I think I had confused HSA with oxidation.

I must have a decent process because I don't think I've ever noticed that in my own beers, but maybe I just don't know what I'm looking for.

Maybe I'll try a few brews without a secondary and see if I can detect any differences in flavor and/or clarity.

Thanks, Yoop.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

This is one of those things that I have never been able to figure out. Every one wants to do a yeast starter-- nessesary or not. No one wants to do a secondary??? That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there. Why is it that homebrewers try to emulate profetional practices that they don't need to worry about, while disregarding those that they should be concerned with? Why is a 1 litre erlenmyer flask and stir bar/plate considered easy/usefull while a syphon rod is considered difficult/intimidateing? If we are too lazey to transfer the beer, how do we ever summon the energy to brew the beer in the first place? My answer to this issue is, go ahead and omit the secondary. You will probably get away with it for a good long time, but sooner or later lightning will strike. There are already plenty of potential lightning rods sticking out of any given batch, so why tempt mother nature with one more?

Cheers.
--Adam Selene

Adam, you should know as well as anyone... TANSTAAFS: there ain't no such thing as a free secondary

If I bottled, I might secondary to reduce trub and improve clarity. But I keg, and I cold crash, and occasionally use gelatin. Beer rarely sits in the primary more than ~2.5 weeks. (Often less). But secondary does give one more chance for oxidation and possibly infection, so there IS a risk.

So I just don't see what possible benefit I'd get. I'm not too worried about oxidation since I transfer under pressure, but unless I can identify a benefit, I don't see why secondary would help.

 

[podz]

probably because you have to mount something to the wall to use it. Also most of us use mini fridges or chest freezers as fermentation chambers and there isnt a way to use that fermentor with the fermentation chambers we use.

I did see a floor stand for it on their website. That could probably be placed in a fridge. Anyway, as I said, I won't be getting one here due to the pricing.

 

[podz]

My first wife was a controlling lady, that is why I got ride of her. I married an angel. She supports my brewing and mountain biking, but she is not a drinker and would never mountain bike.

I never secondary. Now I use the 5 gal carboy to make cider.

That's exactly what I do: use a plastic bucket for making beer and my glass vessels for making cider.

 

[C-Rider]

I should have noted this on the first post, I have an extremely cheap wife that does not support my brewing hobby, so I can not purchase another primary at this time. Am I the only one with a wife that hates this hobby?

5 gal buckets at HD cost about $4

 

[C-Rider]

This is one of those things that I have never been able to figure out. Every one wants to do a yeast starter-- nessesary or not. No one wants to do a secondary??? That makes sense, let's have a good vigorus start, and then do our best to undermine that start by letting the beer sit on a pile of dead yeast, and whatever else might be sitting in there. Why is it that homebrewers try to emulate profetional practices that they don't need to worry about, while disregarding those that they should be concerned with? Why is a 1 litre erlenmyer flask and stir bar/plate considered easy/usefull while a syphon rod is considered difficult/intimidateing? If we are too lazey to transfer the beer, how do we ever summon the energy to brew the beer in the first place? My answer to this issue is, go ahead and omit the secondary. You will probably get away with it for a good long time, but sooner or later lightning will strike. There are already plenty of potential lightning rods sticking out of any given batch, so why tempt mother nature with one more?

Cheers.
--Adam Selene

You need to read some "new" books on home brewing. That business about "dead yeast" is an old wife's tale for home brewers and our "small" batches.