In Contempt of Extract
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Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
I think a good analogy for the way I look at all-grain vs. extract is this:
guy A has a Ferrari.
guy B has a Geo.
guy A is driving his Ferrari the 65 on the highway while guy B is driving his Geo 70 on the same highway. Guy B passes the Ferrari in his Geo.
If we equate the Geo to extract (just an example of a car slower than a Ferrari, don't be offended) and the Ferrari to AG, just because an all-grain brewer brews a beer that is not as good as an extract brew (Ferrari going slower than the Geo) does not mean that the AG brewer could not make a beer that is vastly superior to the extract brew (the Ferrari could stand on the gas and smoke the Geo).
That said, I do not despise extract at all and made fine beers with good fresh extract in my extract days. All I am saying, is that with AG, the amount of variability, control, and choice of the freshest ingredients leads to better tasting brew. It can also lead to a way worse brew in the wrong hands (giving your ******* teenager the keys to your Ferrari). In short, I think extract is a great thing to get into this hobby, and takes a lot less time, and is cheaper up front, and has a whole slough of advantages over AG. The only reason I do AG, is that I believe my final product to be superior.
Hunting season is on, blast away!
guy A has a Ferrari.
guy B has a Geo.
guy A is driving his Ferrari the 65 on the highway while guy B is driving his Geo 70 on the same highway. Guy B passes the Ferrari in his Geo.
If we equate the Geo to extract (just an example of a car slower than a Ferrari, don't be offended) and the Ferrari to AG, just because an all-grain brewer brews a beer that is not as good as an extract brew (Ferrari going slower than the Geo) does not mean that the AG brewer could not make a beer that is vastly superior to the extract brew (the Ferrari could stand on the gas and smoke the Geo).
That said, I do not despise extract at all and made fine beers with good fresh extract in my extract days. All I am saying, is that with AG, the amount of variability, control, and choice of the freshest ingredients leads to better tasting brew. It can also lead to a way worse brew in the wrong hands (giving your ******* teenager the keys to your Ferrari). In short, I think extract is a great thing to get into this hobby, and takes a lot less time, and is cheaper up front, and has a whole slough of advantages over AG. The only reason I do AG, is that I believe my final product to be superior.
Hunting season is on, blast away!
McSwiggin'
Well-Known Member
I brew extract AND all grain. Some of my recipes have better results from extract while others are better from all grain. Technique and control of the variables are key. Variables are in play from moment you start prepping to the moment you finish the last glass.
Brew what works for you!
Brew what works for you!
LET THERE BE NO 'HATE' WITH BEER!!! I love beer making; enjoyed my extract experiences, but like others have said...AG is more control and it is, I believe, a better product in the end. Nothing more fun than researching a style, creating a recipe, and executing via AG method... total control for the control freaks!!! Love it.
But, to my Extract brewing brothers... you are good to go!!! Keep blazing that beer trail.
But, to my Extract brewing brothers... you are good to go!!! Keep blazing that beer trail.
I only had sucess with extract when I used DME. I don't know if I always had bad LME, or I just didn't know how to brew with it.
I only have two AG batches under my belt, and both are damn good.
My pitch to the SWMBO for switching to AG was to save money, but the fact that I bought a larger pot, cooler, bazooka screens, burner and then decided that I wanted to put my AG beer into kegs.... I haven't saved any money yet. While AG might be cheaper in the long run, I think it takes a while to break even when you initially start out.
I say brew with what works for you. For the longest time I thought that everyone who had been brewing for more than a few years were all AG brewers, but some of the most senior members on this forum are brewing extract and I'm willing to bet their beers are better than mine.
I only have two AG batches under my belt, and both are damn good.
My pitch to the SWMBO for switching to AG was to save money, but the fact that I bought a larger pot, cooler, bazooka screens, burner and then decided that I wanted to put my AG beer into kegs.... I haven't saved any money yet. While AG might be cheaper in the long run, I think it takes a while to break even when you initially start out.
I say brew with what works for you. For the longest time I thought that everyone who had been brewing for more than a few years were all AG brewers, but some of the most senior members on this forum are brewing extract and I'm willing to bet their beers are better than mine.
springer
Well-Known Member
Well I never did a canned extract beer before so I cant comment on them. The first beer I ever made was a Queens pale ale kit I bought from Homebrew heaven the kit has dry malt extract, seeping grains and pellet hops.
I brewed 6 different kits from them; all had their own character look and taste. Never had the extract twang to them and all were quite good.
I have since made the transition to AG but I would not hesitate to buy an extract kit from them again.
I brewed 6 different kits from them; all had their own character look and taste. Never had the extract twang to them and all were quite good.
I have since made the transition to AG but I would not hesitate to buy an extract kit from them again.
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
blacklab
Well-Known Member
I'm with Soulive. The only decent lighter beer I ever made with extract was a really over the top IPA, where I used massive amounts of hops to cancel the twang. I used the freshed LME I could find, never from a can. I personally watched the delivery of a new barrel to my LHBS and used it less than four hours after purchase. Twang! I switched to DME and full boils. Twang! I used the late addition method. Twang!
I had some better success with stouts and porters, but the twang was still present. I don't know if it was me or the extract, but after going to AG brewing I have had nothing but success and am easily able to make light, crisp ales, exactly(or better) than the kind I drink at my local micro. The equipment and time sink are not that much greater, and the beer is waaaay better, IMHO.
That's why I refuse to use extract.
I had some better success with stouts and porters, but the twang was still present. I don't know if it was me or the extract, but after going to AG brewing I have had nothing but success and am easily able to make light, crisp ales, exactly(or better) than the kind I drink at my local micro. The equipment and time sink are not that much greater, and the beer is waaaay better, IMHO.
That's why I refuse to use extract.
Soulive
Well-Known Member
janzik
Well-Known Member
While I love the simplicity of extract brewing, I despise dealing with dumping the extract in the kettle... A sticky mess.. bleh...
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Written with good intentions, but sounding EAC non the less. Implying an inferior capability (speed) of extract is just adding fuel to the fire. My guess is that in the right hands (not mine) a combination of grains and extract could produce a beer every bit as good as any AG.
homebrewer_99
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That's OK. I was just trying to toss another view myself...
menschmaschine
Well-Known Member
I think extract is great............................................................For Yeast Starters!
I'm mostly kidding. It's been proven that great beers can be made with both. I've never brewed an extract beer. Apart from a few small differences in controllability, labor intensity, etc., I really think it comes down to personal preference. Brewing with extract is taking advantage of our industrialized society and consequential ability to process foods for easier consumption (quicker preparation). It's like (oh no, another analogy) making pumpkin pie with canned pumpkin vs. whole pumpkin. One can make a great pie with either and not very many people will notice the difference. I've always been a "from scratch" kind of person. I appreciate things that are "authentic". That's why I went straight to all-grain. But that's just me. I don't look down upon extract or those who brew it. I've had some pretty tasty extract beers that I had no idea were extract until I asked. So, to each his own.
I'm mostly kidding. It's been proven that great beers can be made with both. I've never brewed an extract beer. Apart from a few small differences in controllability, labor intensity, etc., I really think it comes down to personal preference. Brewing with extract is taking advantage of our industrialized society and consequential ability to process foods for easier consumption (quicker preparation). It's like (oh no, another analogy) making pumpkin pie with canned pumpkin vs. whole pumpkin. One can make a great pie with either and not very many people will notice the difference. I've always been a "from scratch" kind of person. I appreciate things that are "authentic". That's why I went straight to all-grain. But that's just me. I don't look down upon extract or those who brew it. I've had some pretty tasty extract beers that I had no idea were extract until I asked. So, to each his own.
EinGutesBier
Well-Known Member
Seems like analogies are the statement du jour right now. I'll take a crack at it.
Think of AG and extract brewing as two different hiking trails to get to a lake. One path is shorter than the other, has fewer scenic overlooks and is generally smoother and easier to trudge along. However, you eventually get to the lake even though you never got to see much farther than the trees. On the other hand, the other trail you could take is more difficult because it's longer, has higher grades and maybe a little negotiation over some rocky areas. However, you get out of the forest quite often and get some breathtaking views. Eventually, you do get to the lake, but not as early as you did on the other trail. Two different ways to get to the same spot, but a different experience for each.
I'm sure I don't have to tell you guys which trail is which in that analogy. :cross:
Anyway, I recently posted a thread that was about a new aspect in homebrewing that I came to appreciate. When I first started homebrewing it was a means to an end. Quality beer for a cheaper price than store bought. Over the course of time that I've been brewing, I invariably moved on to AG and that's when I learned beer wasn't just about quality, cheapo beer. It was about the experience of brewing. All of the folks here who are putting hundreds of dollars into their AG systems aren't necessarily doing it for the sake of bragging rights or because they love to burn money. They do it because they see brewing as a living, breathing process, and so their equipment and methods are constantly evolving as well. Maybe it's because they want to squeeze more efficiency out of their system, maybe they just thought of a way to improve their setup.
I believe, though, that for these people, it's not about the money. You'll never be able to justify .25 beers when you're buying all sorts of new gadgets. It's because they love brewing as a holistic experience. This isn't to be mistaken for a statement that extract brewers love the craft of brewing any less. They're just comfortable with a less arduous, possibly less money intensive process that still gets them what they wanted anyway: quality beer they can call their own.
Let's just leave it at this. Some people like to take the shorter, less strenuous path because they love spending time at the lake. While other people, though they love the lake as well, have grown to appreciate the hike it takes to get their. Both are noble people who enjoy the same thing, but their priorities might not be quite the same.
FIN
Think of AG and extract brewing as two different hiking trails to get to a lake. One path is shorter than the other, has fewer scenic overlooks and is generally smoother and easier to trudge along. However, you eventually get to the lake even though you never got to see much farther than the trees. On the other hand, the other trail you could take is more difficult because it's longer, has higher grades and maybe a little negotiation over some rocky areas. However, you get out of the forest quite often and get some breathtaking views. Eventually, you do get to the lake, but not as early as you did on the other trail. Two different ways to get to the same spot, but a different experience for each.
I'm sure I don't have to tell you guys which trail is which in that analogy. :cross:
Anyway, I recently posted a thread that was about a new aspect in homebrewing that I came to appreciate. When I first started homebrewing it was a means to an end. Quality beer for a cheaper price than store bought. Over the course of time that I've been brewing, I invariably moved on to AG and that's when I learned beer wasn't just about quality, cheapo beer. It was about the experience of brewing. All of the folks here who are putting hundreds of dollars into their AG systems aren't necessarily doing it for the sake of bragging rights or because they love to burn money. They do it because they see brewing as a living, breathing process, and so their equipment and methods are constantly evolving as well. Maybe it's because they want to squeeze more efficiency out of their system, maybe they just thought of a way to improve their setup.
I believe, though, that for these people, it's not about the money. You'll never be able to justify .25 beers when you're buying all sorts of new gadgets. It's because they love brewing as a holistic experience. This isn't to be mistaken for a statement that extract brewers love the craft of brewing any less. They're just comfortable with a less arduous, possibly less money intensive process that still gets them what they wanted anyway: quality beer they can call their own.
Let's just leave it at this. Some people like to take the shorter, less strenuous path because they love spending time at the lake. While other people, though they love the lake as well, have grown to appreciate the hike it takes to get their. Both are noble people who enjoy the same thing, but their priorities might not be quite the same.
FIN
html034
Well-Known Member
I currently brew with extract, but as soon as I am able, I am going to make the switch to all grain. That being said, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with extract brewing. I did my first extract brew 3 months ago, and when I started, I knew virtually nothing about making beer, whereas today my knowledge has vastly increased. I have learned so much brewing with extract, and I can't imagine having started with all grain.
I want to switch to all grain because I love this hobby, and I want to be as involved in the process as possible, but not because I think that my beer is going to take some astronomical leap in quality because I am using the intrinsically better method of all grain. If my beer is better, it will be due to the fact that I sort of know what I'm doing now. Extract brewing is like anything else, and it has its advantages and disadvantages. But as Ray Daniels, author of "Designing Great Beers" said in an interview on the brewing network, "extract is not an evil ingredient."
Assuming that you are not dealing with extract quality issues, there are no barriers to the quality of beer you can make relative to all grain. Or at least that's what people like Jamil Zainasheff and Ray Daniels have led me to believe, since I cannot speak from experience. But what do they know.
Bottom line is, brewing all grain is cool and fun, and may even give you better quality beer, but to say things like you despise extract, and that extract just sucks, is stupid.
I want to switch to all grain because I love this hobby, and I want to be as involved in the process as possible, but not because I think that my beer is going to take some astronomical leap in quality because I am using the intrinsically better method of all grain. If my beer is better, it will be due to the fact that I sort of know what I'm doing now. Extract brewing is like anything else, and it has its advantages and disadvantages. But as Ray Daniels, author of "Designing Great Beers" said in an interview on the brewing network, "extract is not an evil ingredient."
Assuming that you are not dealing with extract quality issues, there are no barriers to the quality of beer you can make relative to all grain. Or at least that's what people like Jamil Zainasheff and Ray Daniels have led me to believe, since I cannot speak from experience. But what do they know.
Bottom line is, brewing all grain is cool and fun, and may even give you better quality beer, but to say things like you despise extract, and that extract just sucks, is stupid.
stevecaaster
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exactly what i was getting at, not to bash extract at all... thanks for the input
c.n.budz
Well-Known Member
Oh really? Your first post would seem to say otherwise...
While I no longer brew with extract, except in some very high gravity cases, I have made some very good beers with the stuff and see no reason to bash the stuff that helped get me into this obsession
stevecaaster
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DAMN let me rephrase, i meant not to bash the extract "brewer" and their intentions, i do mean to bash extract, or my 3.3LB nasty cans in particular, they really were wack!
EinGutesBier
Well-Known Member
You could've tried DME...
cheezydemon
Well-Known Member
I love extract. I use exclusively DME.
I have brewed AG quite successfully, but my best brews are PM's which I do exclusively now.
I have 3 kids, a full time job, a yard that is a handful, a home to maintain, hops and peppers to grow, etc.
If it wasn't for extract, I would get to brew twice a year.
I know AG people will argue that AG doesn't take much longer at all.
But when you factor in: I can monitor a kettle on the stove and entertain my five month old son at the same time.
Not so with a turkey fryer out in the weather. It takes some time just to get the huge kettle and burner and propane out and set up.
And furthermore...I made one AG beer that was the best beer anyone I know had ever tried. My next batch was a PM that was even better.
I did an imperial stout 12% abv that was strictly extract. It wasn't for everyone, but those who like a strong stout loved it.
And the one nearly NA brew I made was AG. That couldn't have happened with extract.
I have brewed AG quite successfully, but my best brews are PM's which I do exclusively now.
I have 3 kids, a full time job, a yard that is a handful, a home to maintain, hops and peppers to grow, etc.
If it wasn't for extract, I would get to brew twice a year.
I know AG people will argue that AG doesn't take much longer at all.
But when you factor in: I can monitor a kettle on the stove and entertain my five month old son at the same time.
Not so with a turkey fryer out in the weather. It takes some time just to get the huge kettle and burner and propane out and set up.
And furthermore...I made one AG beer that was the best beer anyone I know had ever tried. My next batch was a PM that was even better.
I did an imperial stout 12% abv that was strictly extract. It wasn't for everyone, but those who like a strong stout loved it.
And the one nearly NA brew I made was AG. That couldn't have happened with extract.
... or fresh LME, from a place with high turnover (like Northern Brewer or AHS). You've got to think of LME as being a perishable ingredient. Some brands are better than others, too. It's illogical to bash extract as a whole (which you really did) if the issue is specific to the old cans.
For the record, I love AG, I'll never go back to extract... but I was making some pretty good beers with extract. I'm AG because I love the control and the process, not because I find the beer to be inherently better.
For the record, I love AG, I'll never go back to extract... but I was making some pretty good beers with extract. I'm AG because I love the control and the process, not because I find the beer to be inherently better.
It's all good....
So long as you only use a stainless steel boil pot...and never aluminum...
...and as long as you only use bleach to sanitize...
...and as long as you only use bottled water...
...and only use a glass carboy...
...and only pellet hops...
...and skip the secondary...
j/k
...sorry...couldn't resist...
So long as you only use a stainless steel boil pot...and never aluminum...
...and as long as you only use bleach to sanitize...
...and as long as you only use bottled water...
...and only use a glass carboy...
...and only pellet hops...
...and skip the secondary...
j/k
...sorry...couldn't resist...
RegionalChaos
Well-Known Member
I'm slowly working my way towards AG, but I'm still a bayou burner, immersion chiller, and mash tun away... I'm sure I'll get there gradually. I did start out with a 4 gallon boil on my last brew, so heading in the right direction.. But to be honest, I can have a hard time just trying to fit in an extract brew, time wise. I have a handful of kids at home, one a 6 month old. Between family and a full time job, there isn't a lot of brewery time left over.. The added cost of time associated with AG makes it much harder for me to schedule.
I did get a solid taste of Twang in my last batch though.. I'm looking forward to not getting that on a regular basis. I think I'm going to start using all DME.
I did get a solid taste of Twang in my last batch though.. I'm looking forward to not getting that on a regular basis. I think I'm going to start using all DME.
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Beerthoven
Well-Known Member
You forgot one
...and only use liquid yeast. (Or was it dry?!?)
And the most important one of all...only do full boils INSIDE!
Beerthoven
Well-Known Member
Seriously, though, I think it's a myth that you need to go AG to make really good beer. I do both AG and extract brewing, and I get very good results both ways. The keys to avoiding twang are to use fresh extract from a reputable source and follow good brewing practice (sanitation, temp control, etc.). If you can't make good beer with good extract then you are a bad brewer and going AG isn't going to do you any good in the long run.
c.n.budz
Well-Known Member
Soulive
Well-Known Member
Jeff48
Well-Known Member
I don't understand the question
I challenge all of you across the country to do blind taste tests and report the findings.
All the samples must be bottled and coded so the scorekeeper is the only one who knows if the beers are AG or Extract.
There are only two scoring criteria: Pass/Fail AG/Extract
P=Pass=would drink again
F=Fail= would not drink again
AG= All Grain
E=Extract
The only scores possible are PAG,PE,***,FE
Each taster gets to vote on each beer.
Betcha the results will show little difference between the actual AG and E with passing grades and a huge bias towards attributing passing grades to an AG when it is actually an Extract.
This is very different from a contest environment where the winning beers have some very extraordinary aromas, flavors, textures etc. which can only be obtained by the alchemy of AG.
Overall however and based solely on the PFAGE ratings, there will be as many **** as FEs.
I challenge all of you across the country to do blind taste tests and report the findings.
All the samples must be bottled and coded so the scorekeeper is the only one who knows if the beers are AG or Extract.
There are only two scoring criteria: Pass/Fail AG/Extract
P=Pass=would drink again
F=Fail= would not drink again
AG= All Grain
E=Extract
The only scores possible are PAG,PE,***,FE
Each taster gets to vote on each beer.
Betcha the results will show little difference between the actual AG and E with passing grades and a huge bias towards attributing passing grades to an AG when it is actually an Extract.
This is very different from a contest environment where the winning beers have some very extraordinary aromas, flavors, textures etc. which can only be obtained by the alchemy of AG.
Overall however and based solely on the PFAGE ratings, there will be as many **** as FEs.
Ryanh1801
Well-Known Member
I went all grain for one reason, to make the best beer possible. To me you just can't do that with extract. While my two extract batch's were drinkable and good, I would not call them great. Most of my All grains I can call great, and would rather drink them than a commercial beer of the same style. I don't even use DME for starters anymore, I always save some left over wort and freeze it.
I'm glad extract got me into brewing, but now that I'm "evolved" (sorry), I would give up homebrewing if I was forced to pick between extract and nothing at all. I know that's completely unrealistic, but I just wouldn't feel the same about the hobby.
