Importance of water?

[IPAMike]

... continuing with a thought based on my previous reply on alkalinity limits ...

Starting out with DME/LME, there's nothing wrong with using tap water of an unknown mineral content - as long as the beer comes out fine. But if the beer ends up with unexpected flavors, inappropriate mineral content needs to be considered as a source of the unexpected flavors.

Starting with distilled/RO/low mineral water is one way to avoid the troubleshooting step.

If mineral content of the tap water is known, there appears to be information (note: this is speculation) in a couple of places that can be used to establish rough ppm ranges for good vs poor tap water. Once this is known, some of the techniques that people use to dilute minerals / alkalinity may (again: this is speculation) be appropriate for adjusting tap water when brewing with DME/LME.

Yeah. I may not sweat things too much until I make the jump to all grain. From what I'm gathering, having the "right" water is more important than when extract brewing.

 

[IPAMike]

Took me a minute to figure out where this came from. Total hardness is expressed as molar mass equivalents of CaCO3

CaC03 = 100.1 g/mol
Ca2+ = 40.1 g/mol
Mg2+= 24.3 g/mol

So, molar mass ratios can be expressed as:
MCaCO3 / MCa = 100.1 / 40.1 = 2.5
MCaCO3 / MMg = 100.1 / 24.3 = 4.1

I'm going to have to take your word on these numbers. Haha!

 

[IPAMike]

In the grand scheme of the cost of a batch of beer, especially if you grant a very small hourly wage to your time spent, 6 gallons of RO or distilled water is practically nothing. When brewing extracts, it's a very simple choice to avoid any water based off flavors.

Good point. Thanks!

 

[Oleson M.D.]

I think the point that may not be have been articulated properly is that you were unclear whether you brew with 100% filtered tap water or 100% RO water or some combination of both. Without knowing the exact ionic content of the tap water, it is impossible that it is ideal for every beer style without some modification. Anecdotally being happy with all beer styles on that water source is fine. It is just not good general advice for anyone looking to maximize their success.

Here is how we do it:

1. Brew with 100% straight filtered city tap water.
2. Brew with 100% RO water...yes, we have done this with good results.
3. Brew with a combination of filtered tap and RO, in several ratios depending on the beer style.

We have brewed ales, lagers, porters, stouts, Imperial Stouts, Barleywines, all with good success. Works for us, might not work for you.

Like someone said on that "other" brewing forum...the best brewers do not worry about water.

 

[IPAMike]

With regard to water adjustments and extract brewing, there's this from a popular book (circa 2005):

View attachment 745861

RO/distilled water is a good solution to the 1st step, yeast nutrient for the 3rd.

Helpful. Thank you!

 

[VikeMan]

Like someone said on that "other" brewing forum...the best brewers do not worry about water.

Someone may have said this, but I have found the opposite to be true. That includes home brewers and pros.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Like someone said on that "other" brewing forum...the best brewers do not worry about water.

"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence": it's your claim, we're willing to review the evidence.

 

[Falstaff]

I brew with store brand spring water. I make malty beers, as I'm not a huge fan of hops, besides the necessary bitterness.

This has not worked for my attempts at hoppy beers, as I can never seem to taste the hops, even if I add enough to make my mouth burn.

On the other hand, using tap water made all my beers taste like olives or pickles, which I attributed to the chlorine and chloramines.

Using campden tablets fixed this too, but I always got worried I was using too much, and adding hardness, or using too little, and leaving chloramines.

I also used RO for a while, adding my own minerals, before I decided I just prefer to make malty beers anyways, and quit trying to beat my head against the wall trying to bring out the hops.

Spring water has made all my stouts, browns, scotch ales, ciders, and meads delicious.

 

[IPAMike]

I brew with store brand spring water. I make malty beers, as I'm not a huge fan of hops, besides the necessary bitterness.

This has not worked for my attempts at hoppy beers, as I can never seem to taste the hops, even if I add enough to make my mouth burn.

On the other hand, using tap water made all my beers taste like olives or pickles, which I attributed to the chlorine and chloramines.

Using campden tablets fixed this too, but I always got worried I was using too much, and adding hardness, or using too little, and leaving chloramines.

I also used RO for a while, adding my own minerals, before I decided I just prefer to make malty beers anyways, and quit trying to beat my head against the wall trying to bring out the hops.

Spring water has made all my stouts, browns, scotch ales, ciders, and meads delicious.

I do love the taste of olives and pickles. Not so much in my beer though.
It seems like a process of trial and error and "dialing it in".

 

[hout17]

I brew with store brand spring water. I make malty beers, as I'm not a huge fan of hops, besides the necessary bitterness.

This has not worked for my attempts at hoppy beers, as I can never seem to taste the hops, even if I add enough to make my mouth burn.

On the other hand, using tap water made all my beers taste like olives or pickles, which I attributed to the chlorine and chloramines.

Using campden tablets fixed this too, but I always got worried I was using too much, and adding hardness, or using too little, and leaving chloramines.

I also used RO for a while, adding my own minerals, before I decided I just prefer to make malty beers anyways, and quit trying to beat my head against the wall trying to bring out the hops.

Spring water has made all my stouts, browns, scotch ales, ciders, and meads delicious.

I have good luck jumping my sulfate up to 100ppm to bring out the hops in my beer. A lot of folks like their sulfate level higher but that's my preference.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

indicating participants in this xBmt were unable to reliably distinguish a New England IPA treated to achieve a targeted water profile from one brewed with straight untreated distilled water.

I needed to identify the unique sample 7 times (p<0.02) in order to reach statistical significance. However, I correctly chose the unique sample only 4 times (p=0.44), indicating my inability to reliably distinguish a Blonde Ale made with straight RO water from one made with RO water adjusted to my desired mineral profile.

The above came from experiments where they could not tell differences in beers with treated / untreated water.

 

[VikeMan]

For the sake of argument, let's ignore the lack of power in the sample sizes, and just accept the Brulosophy experiments as valid.

If you're going to use those two Brulosophy experiments as evidence for "no difference" in those two cases, then you have to accept the one on Czech Pilsner as evidence that there was a difference detected in that case. And where there is a difference, there's a subjective preference. Therefore it would be incorrect to state that water doesn't matter.

BTW, that experiment with p=0.44 did not prove that no difference was detected by that one person <ahem> who tasted the beers. If anything, it actually supports a likelihood that there was a difference detected. 0.44 means that if there were no difference, there was only a 44% chance that the taster would have got it right the 4 times that he did or more. Put another way...if you had 100 experiments that had p-values of 0.44, you could be pretty sure that about 66 of them detected differences.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The NHC 2007 presentation has recipes that could be brewed to attempt to reproduce the results.

So does Brulosophy.

For those that are curious, maybe it's time to take "brewing science" to the next level and see if these results can be reproduced.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The above came from experiments where they could not tell differences in beers with treated / untreated water.

For those who are interested in trying to reproduce the Brulosophy recipes that you mentioned, can you provide direct links to those articles?

 

[Oleson M.D.]

https://brulosophy.com/2018/10/25/w...-in-new-england-ipa-the-bru-club-xbmt-series/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Link to the NHC 2007 presentation can be found here: Water Chemistry: Messing with Minerals | exBEERiment Results!

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Someone may have said this, but I have found the opposite to be true. That includes home brewers and pros.

A brewery located in Bitburg, Germany, uses the local water. With no chemical treatment.

 

[jerrylotto]

A brewery located in Bitburg, Germany, uses the local water. With no chemical treatment.

You can bet that they know the mineral content and there are no chloramines used for disinfectant. Using local water is not the issue - using water with unknown or variable chemistry is the problem.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It seems like a process of trial and error and "dialing it in".

It can be - it seems to depend on the starting point that one chooses.

If one is starting with RO water, Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery (which is the 'cliff notes' for A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer) is a short read, easy to follow, and it works.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

eta: the primary point of this reply is highlighted.

Using local water is not the issue - using water with unknown or variable chemistry is the problem.

And, anecdotally, some people find that their tap water comes from multiple sources of water. Some times it's blended, some times the provider switches between sources.

aside: changing from a direct reply to a more general comment

One need to understand the characteristics of the source water (and source water supply). With that information, one can answer these questions:

1. what adjustments are needed to start with quality brewing water?
2. what adjustments are needed to achieve a proper mash?
3. what adjustments could be made to enhance the flavor of the beer?
4. what adjustments would be helpful for a healthy fermentation?

Now, for some observations:

• Not all grains have the same impact on the mash (e.g. dark grains)
• Everyone tastes beer differently (See The New IPA, chapter 5 for a link to study from the 1980s).

And an opinion:

• Enhancing beer flavor, using common salts, is an opinion by the recipe designer on how the beer tastes best.

 

[VikeMan]

A brewery located in Bitburg, Germany, uses the local water. With no chemical treatment.

That's cool. I bet they aren't using it "as is" for a wide range of styles, i.e. grain bills with large differences in pH. If they are, some of those styles are suffering. And I bet they are using acid malt, which contains that pesky "chemical" Lactic Acid. You know, the same "chemical" that yeast and bacteria also make naturally.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

indicating participants in this xBmt were unable to reliably distinguish a New England IPA treated to achieve a targeted water profile from one brewed with straight untreated distilled water.

I needed to identify the unique sample 7 times (p<0.02) in order to reach statistical significance. However, I correctly chose the unique sample only 4 times (p=0.44), indicating my inability to reliably distinguish a Blonde Ale made with straight RO water from one made with RO water adjusted to my desired mineral profile.

The above came from experiments where they could not tell differences in beers with treated / untreated water.

Where is the article that talks about the blond ale recipe?

 

[Pablo 54]

Even though I've been brewing for about 15 years, I just recently starting using Bru'n Water. Definitely makes a major difference. A Ward report would be mostly worthless to me as my local water reports fluctuate monthly (they actually have a "Homebrewing" chart on my local water website). Unfortunately, the figures are usually a month or two behind. I now use RO and build.

Came here to say that. My experience is almost identical. I use Bru'n Water and had some Ward reports generated. Amounts varied wildly depending on the time of year. I now build everything off of Meijer Distilled water. Comes in 2.5 gallon containers. However, I've found there normally is an extra quart of water in them. Thank you Meijer.
My only other addition: Consider converting your Calcium Chloride into a liquid form.

 

[Bobby_M]

Like someone said on that "other" brewing forum...the best brewers do not worry about water.

This is ridiculous in almost any context. The one way it's true is that good brewers don't "worry" about water because they know what's in the water they are using and have figured out that mash PH will be within acceptable range. In that way, I don't worry about it. I just verify with a pH meter that my software of choice was reliably predictive. It almost always is.

I'll absolutely concede that specific ionic levels such as total calcium or the chloride to sulfate ratio are much more nuanced an effect on the finished beer than mash pH is. However, its not as nuanced as a single brulosophy experiment would suggest (especially when the taster sample size is 1). The water "recipe" is one of those things that adds a certain sparkle to an already well brewed beer. That is to say a beer with the wrong ratios is not necessarily flawed by any measure.

There are a lot of ways to define who the best brewers are. In some circles, the brewer that can still make a beer worthy of choking down while ignoring best practices is the best brewer.

 

[BrewDrinkRepeat]

the best brewers do not worry about water.

IMO and E, that is complete and utter nonsense. And that applies to both the "best" (whatever that highly subjective term means) homebrewers and professional brewers alike.

It is both provable and demonstrable that water mineral composition, particularly that of sulfate and chloride, has a significant effect on the flavor and mouthfeel perception of the finished beer. And while plenty of brewers make a number of beer styles to their liking without making any adjustments, it is impossible that one water profile can make excellent examples of all styles.

Literally not possible, under any circumstances.

You may choose to disregard this, and you may be happy with the beers you make (you are, after all, the only person whose opinion on your beer ultimately matters), but that doesn't make the above any less true.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm sure my local shop should have Campden tablets.

Or get a bag or jar with Potassium (or Sodium) Metabisulfite, also known as K-Meta (Na-Meta), used widely in wine and meads to prevent oxidation during racking.
1/16 teaspoon of that treats 5 gallons of water. That's a quarter of a quarter teaspoon! And doesn't need to be crushed.
Even if you misjudge the measure, using a 1/4 teaspoon in 5 gallons (4x the amount needed), it's still fine you won't be able to taste or notice it.

 

[Saunassa]

Extract with distilled water worked well, did not have enough one time and used tap(well) water. Turned out meh, found that water softener, even though new, still left enough salt to affect flavor. without it the mineral content was ok but a few points of clear water iron left a slight metallic aftertaste. Switched to spring water for partial mash and all grain. Water made all the difference especially with lighter color beer.

 

[mashpaddled]

You don't need to worry about water if you happen to live somewhere with with water that just happens to be well suited for what you like to brew or you are happy with the beers you brew without worrying about your water. For most homebrewers and breweries, at least for all grain brewing, you aren't going to be able to brew great beer across a lot of styles without some degree of modification even if that is filtering out chlorine-based additives or cutting in neutral water. If you are happy with the beers you brew without fussing with water than all the better for you.

 

[cire]

This is ridiculous in almost any context. The one way it's true is that good brewers don't "worry" about water because they know what's in the water they are using and have figured out that mash PH will be within acceptable range. In that way, I don't worry about it. I just verify with a pH meter that my software of choice was reliably predictive. It almost always is.

I'll absolutely concede that specific ionic levels such as total calcium or the chloride to sulfate ratio are much more nuanced an effect on the finished beer than mash pH is. However, its not as nuanced as a single brulosophy experiment would suggest (especially when the taster sample size is 1). The water "recipe" is one of those things that adds a certain sparkle to an already well brewed beer. That is to say a beer with the wrong ratios is not necessarily flawed by any measure.

There are a lot of ways to define who the best brewers are. In some circles, the brewer that can still make a beer worthy of choking down while ignoring best practices is the best brewer.

Ridiculous indeed, although, hang on a minute, pH measurement came into existence after brewers had adjusted (nuance???) their brewing liquors for several decades? Correct treatment of brewing liquor produces better brewing conditions and target for pH are what were found after an early electronic pH meter took measurements in breweries and reported the findings.

While pH is very important in brewing, better beer is made by considering other factors, learning what they are and not ignoring them.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Like someone said on that "other" brewing forum...the best brewers do not worry about water.

"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence": it's your claim, we're willing to review the evidence.

@Oleson M.D. we're still waiting ...