I'm switching to better bottles

[bigbeergeek]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-no-chill-brewing-117111/

 

[fc36]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/smashed-carboy-145668/index3.html#post2338971 Nuff Said! I still ferment in glass, but I'm thinking about switching to sankes because my brother has found a steady supply of them.

He's not only a union pipefitter, but also a beekeeper/herbalist/urban chicken farmer. So he's got tons to trade with his union brothers for all types of stuff including scrap stainless and old sankes. And being a professional welder has given me tons of ideas of how to really pimp out my brew rig in the next few months.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

Do your research!

The question of how do you stave off contamination in no chill brewing is a silly one. How do you stave off contamination in your boil kettle? Boiling temperatures, of course. If you dump boiling hot wort into a sanitized vessel and let it cool to room temperature for 48 hours (or even a couple of months) before pitching the yeast, you have a more sanitary set of conditions than someone who uses a chiller.

As far as cold break, not everyone cares about crystal clear beer, and to those who do I offer one word of advice: gelatin.

But you're also at risk of hot side aeration. How do you aerate your wort if you dump it into your container before cooling it?

 

[Mojzis]

Why don't you just chill your wort as soon as you've finished boiling?

You'll get a better cold break, clearer beer, less risk of contamination/infection, and don't have to worry about moving hot liquids between vessels.

To start I'll give you more information. I'm a senior in college. I take 18 credits a semester and wash dishes for 7.15$ an hour when I'm not in class. I have worked it out so after bills I have a surplus of 100$ a month for things not bills. However this doesn't go far. Life isn't cheap.

To add to that I move a lot being in college. Switching from apartments, going home, etc. Equipment adds up. I can just fit all my brewing junk in my car if I don't put anything (or anyone - two dogs and a gf). I have too much stuff.

So I chose to no chill. I make very little and have very little space. I have done many batches this way with great results.

Are those siphons rated to handle the hot temperatures you're subjecting them to? Are the buckets you just bought? Are they potentially leaching chemicals into your wort?

My siphon tubing is food grade high temp. Buckets are HPDE, food grade BPA free..etc.

And I don't want to clean my equipment. But it comes with making beer, so I do it.

I don't mind cleaning.

Agreed. Using ice baths for anything over 2 gallons seems too slow and impractical to me. So get an immersion chiller. It's $50 worth of copper and fittings, and an hour of your time.

Why don't you send me that 50$ and i'll let you know how it goes

You don't need a lid to chill. Mine has a lid, but I never use it.

Funny story: The first time I used my boil kettle, I actually did put the lid on after I finished chilling it, to keep contaminants from falling into the wort while I transferred it into the fermenter. I connected the tube to the ball valve, and with the lid on the kettle, opened up the valve and started the flow. In just a few seconds, the lid started to buckle inward and made that bending metal noise. I quickly realized the wort flowing out of the (effectively airtight) kettle was creating a vacuum that was sucking the lid down. I quickly closed the valve and pried the lid off, breaking the seal before it could seriously damage the lid.



Nah, then I could only ever have one batch of beer going at a time. As it is, I have 4 batches in various stages of fermenting, and if the weather is nice, I'll likely brew again next weekend. I can't commit my kettle to 4-6 weeks of fermenting/cold crashing/clarifying every time I brew.

I only need one batch going at a time. I usually do a 3 g batch, then a 5 g right after. No room left in the freezer after that.



Except when your carboy explodes.

Hence the start of this thread.


You need the carboy anyway, so the only extra piece of equipment is really the chiller itself ($50). And I don't believe "it's effective" is accurate, as you're missing out on achieving a good cold break, which is important for obtaining crystal-clear beer.

I'm thinking buckets not carboys. Maybe one carboy for a lager I keep putting off. Secondaries aren't important so besides a lager, why would you need a carboy good sir?

Cliff's Notes?

How do you stave off contamination? How is the clarity of the resulting beer in the absence of a good cold break?

Here you go:

I've had one contamination in my short brewing term (30 batches-1 year) and that occurred using an ice bath. Go figure.

 

[Mojzis]

Pouring hot wort into a fermenter or especially carboy I'm surprised you haven't had more oxidation because of Hotside Aeration.

But you're also at risk of hot side aeration. How do you aerate your wort if you dump it into your container before cooling it?

I use a siphon so it gently fills the fermenter.

Most people don't/shouldn't aerate by dumping their wort into fermenters. Its not effective. Shaking the fermenter is generally a low budget move or an aeration stone. Recently I have picked one of these up, no more damned shaking for me.

I believe most people who do no chill use a siphon. I myself have not had a problem with HSA (if it exists).

 

[zeg]

But you're also at risk of hot side aeration. How do you aerate your wort if you dump it into your container before cooling it?

General wisdom these days is that the risks of HSA were far overstated, and that it's essentially irrelevant in the homebrewing context. You can find a lot more about this by searching the site for HSA or "hot side aeration."

 

[Mojzis]

Chill your damned wort you heathen!

So the opportunity presented itself and I finally got a chiller. I knew I didn't want an immersion chiller but couldn't afford a plate chiller. So I made a CFC I found in the DIY section. Only about 60$ total, as always hardware is the most expensive part. Got 5.5 g down to 78 in ten minutes.

I'm going to test out being a non-heathen for a little

 

[bovineblitz]

Pouring hot wort into a fermenter or especially carboy I'm surprised you haven't had more oxidation because of Hotside Aeration.

HSA is a myth.

 

[fc36]

Chill your damned wort you heathen!

No truer words have ever been spoken. Think how many gallons of wort he's wasted on his friends' tongues by not achieving even a modest cold break.

 

[bovineblitz]

No truer words have ever been spoken. Think how many gallons of wort he's wasted on his friends' tongues by not achieving even a modest cold break.

That's BS, no chilling doesn't have negative effects in regards to cold break, or pretty much anything. The only real difference is that hop utilization is different due to longer chilling. Not bad different, just different.

 

[Jeepinctbrewer]

better bottles work awesome, never had any issues with mine. i use a milk crate to move them around

 

[fc36]

That's BS, no chilling doesn't have negative effects in regards to cold break, or pretty much anything. The only real difference is that hop utilization is different due to longer chilling. Not bad different, just different.

Oxidation and sulfides are just two of the things that occur in a slowly cooling vessel of wort. Not to mention the increased chance of infection due to airborne bacteria and the length of time it takes you to cool. You should read a little about cold break. It's not just proteins that you're worried about. Cold break will help to reduce chill haze, but flavor is most definitely affected by oxidation and dimethyl sulfide.

Commercial breweries take upwards of 40 minutes to chill their wort, but remember that their boil kettles are usually closed systems with very little oxygen present in the head space of the vessel. Also, they use a plate heat exchanger and no matter how big your plate heat exchanger, it still takes time to chill large volumes of 15-30 bbls or more.

Letting your beer cool at its own slow ass rate is a recipe for subpar beer, unless that's your aim to recreate some sort of medieval/egyptian no-chill brew.

 

[zeg]

Letting your beer cool at its own slow ass rate is a recipe for subpar beer, unless that's your aim to recreate some sort of medieval/egyptian no-chill brew.

That's a pretty strong claim, considering a sizeable number of people swear by that process. I find it hard to believe anyone would use the method if it produced "subpar" beer.

 

[fc36]

That's a pretty strong claim, considering a sizeable number of people swear by that process. I find it hard to believe anyone would use the method if it produced "subpar" beer.

Not worth my time to continue arguing against those who swear by their own slow and antiquated process. An IC chiller is one of the easiest pieces of brewing eqpt to make and only costs about $40. You guys can continue to no-chill and I'll continue getting great cold break and clearer tastier beer. Besides, this thread is about better bottles, not the long and ever-contested chill vs. no-chill debate.

 

[dbsmith]

That's a pretty strong claim, considering a sizeable number of people swear by that process. I find it hard to believe anyone would use the method if it produced "subpar" beer.

You don't believe in laziness? People cut corners all the time in every aspect of life, including manufacturing, cooking, and producing anything, in general. BTW I'm not trying to imply that all no-chill brewers lazy, I'm just stating that people have different values. Some people try really hard, and some people value their relaxation time more.

 

[Mojzis]

Not worth my time to continue arguing against those who swear by their own slow and antiquated process. An IC chiller is one of the easiest pieces of brewing eqpt to make and only costs about $40. You guys can continue to no-chill and I'll continue getting great cold break and clearer tastier beer. Besides, this thread is about better bottles, not the long and ever-contested chill vs. no-chill debate.

You're trolling my friend.

If you read the initial posts you would see that's its not about better bottles. It's about the fact I destroyed my carboy pouring hot wort into it.

If you have strong opinions about no chilling vs chilling, that's fine and dandy. Me personally, I wouldn't stake claims or look for an argument over a subject where I haven't tried both results. Have you no chilled? If not how do you know about it being "subpar"? Word of mouth? Personally I couldn't base my argument off something I've never tried.

However I did buy a counterflow chiller and will be putting to use so that I can test this argument myself.

So why start a no chill argument to begin with??

 

[fc36]

You're trolling my friend.

If you read the initial posts you would see that's its not about better bottles. It's about the fact I destroyed my carboy pouring hot wort into it.

If you have strong opinions about no chilling vs chilling, that's fine and dandy. Me personally, I wouldn't stake claims or look for an argument over a subject where I haven't tried both results. Have you no chilled? If not how do you know about it being "subpar"? Word of mouth? Personally I couldn't base my argument off something I've never tried.

However I did buy a counterflow chiller and will be putting to use so that I can test this argument myself.

No troll. If you read my earlier posts in this thread, I also broke a carboy and to disastrous results. I ended up with 19 stitches. I have done no chill. In fact, my first few batches were no-chill and I noticed an immediate flavor and clarity difference once I built my IC chiller. It wasn't like night and day, but it was certainly noticeable and many of my friends commented that the beer was better without my prompting. I'm a chemical engineer and I don't just say things to say them. I value the scientific method and you can't argue with results. Just sayin'.

 

[bovineblitz]

Oxidation and sulfides are just two of the things that occur in a slowly cooling vessel of wort. Not to mention the increased chance of infection due to airborne bacteria and the length of time it takes you to cool. You should read a little about cold break. It's not just proteins that you're worried about. Cold break will help to reduce chill haze, but flavor is most definitely affected by oxidation and dimethyl sulfide.

Commercial breweries take upwards of 40 minutes to chill their wort, but remember that their boil kettles are usually closed systems with very little oxygen present in the head space of the vessel. Also, they use a plate heat exchanger and no matter how big your plate heat exchanger, it still takes time to chill large volumes of 15-30 bbls or more.

Letting your beer cool at its own slow ass rate is a recipe for subpar beer, unless that's your aim to recreate some sort of medieval/egyptian no-chill brew.

I'd be impressed if you could oxidize wort in a sealed container with no air contact. There's also no chance of infection since the container is heat sanitized. You should try it before you claim that cold break is important. There is no noticeable chill haze in no-chilled beers. Also, what makes you think cold break isn't occurring anyways? Is there any actual evidence that supports the idea that fast chilling is required?

Commercial breweries are working with a volume that absolutely requires chilling, it'd take an eternity to no chill in a giant conical. Not only that but their whole process is much speedier.

No chilling creates excellent, medal winning beer. You're just plain wrong.

 

[bovineblitz]

No troll. If you read my earlier posts in this thread, I also broke a carboy and to disastrous results. I ended up with 19 stitches. I have done no chill. In fact, my first few batches were no-chill and I noticed an immediate flavor and clarity difference once I built my IC chiller. It wasn't like night and day, but it was certainly noticeable and many of my friends commented that the beer was better without my prompting. I'm a chemical engineer and I don't just say things to say them. I value the scientific method and you can't argue with results. Just sayin'.

I can argue with your results easily. You have a sample size of what, 3ish? Plus, you were a novice when you were no chilling from what you said, I assume your process got smoother and better over time. Your 'findings' are not at all scientific, your data is worthless. Redo the experiment and then let's talk.

 

[Mojzis]

Fair enough. But it's hard to believe so many no chillers could be making subpar beer and love the results.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

too many of you are unnecessarily hard on glass, apparently. hahahhaa!!!

 

[zeg]

Not worth my time to continue arguing against those who swear by their own slow and antiquated process.

Which is, I assume, why you posted your comment? Don't be surprised when you make a sweeping comment and get a (well, what was a) brief response to it.("Subpar" is a very strong statement---it means below average, not just be marginally worse, so you are saying you cannot make even average beer by that method.

Anyway, to pretend this is on topic, I continue to be happy with my better bottles, though I've been using some glass lately. I fermented 1/2-gallon and 1-gallon experimental batches using a growler and a cider jug. At that size, I'm much more comfortable that I can handle it safely. I still wouldn't want to break one, but it's not pushing my limits to carry it. A full 6 gal BB is at the edge of my comfort range for lifting/carrying, so I can't imagine adding the additional weight of glass.

It's really dropping it that worries me, I'm not concerned about thermal issues because I always use my IC (and used a water bath before that) to cool the wort to room temperature before transferring it.

 

[dbsmith]

Just some information for people putting boiling hot wort directly into buckets..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17707454

A nice little quote from the abstract:

"The rate of antimony (Sb) release could be fit by a power function model (Sb(t)=Sb 0 x[Time, h]k; k=8.7 x 10(-6)x[Temperature ( degrees C)](2.55); Sb 0 is the initial antimony concentration). For exposure temperatures of 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, and 85 degrees C, the exposure durations necessary to exceed the 6 ppb MCL are 176, 38, 12, 4.7, 2.3, and 1.3 days, respectively."

I would dare to call beer with high Antimony levels subpar. Either you can risk slow poisoning or you can just get a wort chiller guys. If you want to be a science project, be my guest, but keep your beers to yourself, please.

 

[Mojzis]

Just some information for people putting boiling hot wort directly into buckets..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17707454

A nice little quote from the abstract:

"The rate of antimony (Sb) release could be fit by a power function model (Sb(t)=Sb 0 x[Time, h]k; k=8.7 x 10(-6)x[Temperature ( degrees C)](2.55); Sb 0 is the initial antimony concentration). For exposure temperatures of 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, and 85 degrees C, the exposure durations necessary to exceed the 6 ppb MCL are 176, 38, 12, 4.7, 2.3, and 1.3 days, respectively."

I would dare to call beer with high Antimony levels subpar. Either you can risk slow poisoning or you can just get a wort chiller guys. If you want to be a science project, be my guest, but keep your beers to yourself, please.

Google no chilling.

They make special containers for it......

Edit: your link also says PET.

 

[dbsmith]

Google no chilling.

They make special containers for it......

Edit: your link also says PET.

Well I thought that this topic was about better bottles, which is Polyethylene Terephthalate. If you look at the bottom, it has a 1 in the triangle and says 'PETE'. If you have a special container then great.

EDIT: If you use a #2 (HDPE) then you're golden it seems.

 

[Mojzis]

Better bottles couldn't handle heat. Buckets are HPDE BPA free.....

 

[dbsmith]

Pretty much all of the plastics I have seen online that are HDPE are rated for 150 degrees F. Such as: http://www.coleparmer.com/TechLibraryArticle/697
It looks to me like polypropylene may be a better choice. It even has 'good resistance to organic chemicals'.

Are there special buckets that are specifically rated for handling boiling hot wort? If so, is there a technical sheet showing it?

 

[Mojzis]

I searched a little and found this post:

"Originally Posted by Brewtus
I am a materials engineer who has designed plastics formulations for almost twenty years. I have a BS degree in chemistry and did my MS thesis in the field of polymer science and engineering. I have experience in many different polymer systems (PE, PP, PVC, PUR, PA, EVA, PC, PS, ESBS, PET, EPDM, SBR, CSM, FEP, PTFE, PVDF, ECTFE, just to name a few).

Plastics are generally misunderstood. Plastic compounds are generally composed of the base polymer (i.e. PE, PP, PVC, etc.) and additional additives that further enhance the polymer's physical or chemical properties (i.e. impart flexibility, add flame retardancy, increase impact resistance, etc.). For example, white rigid PVC pipe that we buy in home improvement centers is the same polymer as garden hoses, namely PVC. yet these two items behave very differently in terms of flexibility. This is because an additive called a plasticizer (essentially an organic oil) has been added to the hose to impart flexibility. The plasticizer molecules essentially "fill in" between each of the long chain polymer molecules causing them to slide across each other. Think of a lube on a molecular level. It's important to remember the difference between polymers and compounds. (Note: the lead that is in garden hoses is from a lead salt (lead phthatale or lead sulfate) that is used as a heat stabilizer. It will leach out.)

As far as leaching goes, a food grade polypropylene will not typically contain anything harmful that will leach into the mash at an unacceptable level (true for HDPE as well). The company can not label it as food grade if this was the case (this isn't China where companies can put melamine into dog food without regulation, or lead based paints on toys). The only thing I can think of that might leach into the mash would be a mold release agent that's there to help separate the liner from the mold during it's initial manufacturing process. Probably a food grade mineral oil or paraffinic compound that's easily removed with soap and water. There may also be some type of antioxidant or UV inhibitor to stabilize the polymer from high manufacturing temperatures or sunlight exposure. Again, these would be food grade and not pose a risk at the levels added. Look at some food labels and see how often you find BHT (butylated hydroxytoluene), yet you still eat this. Here's something else to think about: The residual component (terephthalic acid) used to make polyethylene terephthalate (PET) is in every plastic soda bottle because it leaches into the drink, especially the longer a bottle stays on the shelf. This is why a coke tastes different in plastic than glass or a can. Yet PET bottles are food safe.

Warping and cracking of the plastic is most likely due to temperature interactions. This is a physical event, not chemical. It has to do with the crystalinity of the polymer itself. Other things could be that the actual polymer itself could be oxidizing (which is a chemical reaction) over time at high temperatures if NO antioxidant is present. Also consider the melting points of LDPE, HDPE and PP (~100C, 130C and 160C respectively). LDPE softens at about 80C or so and HDPE softens at about 120C or so - meaning that at mashing temperatures, you're probably good with HDPE or PP. One has to remember that if you pour boiling water into a LDPE lined cooler, you could do some damage, but are fine in a HDPE or PP lined cooler."

But to my understanding a lot of no chillers use these: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/5-gallon-plastic-collapsible-fermentation-jug-with-cap.html. I mean if I was to use the bucket for no chill (I haven't) I would look around more.

 

[zeg]

Even if we are worried about the arsenic extraction, I don't think the quoted study is all that terrifying. The times to reach the MCL are in days at the highest temperatures quoted. True, extrapolating to 100°C, the time drops to a bit over an hour, but even without chilling, the temperature drops somewhat faster than exponentially toward room temperature, so it spends very little time near boiling. A quick and dirty conservative estimate assuming it takes about 24 hours to reach room temperature (exponentially) says you'll reach less than 1/3 the MCL in that time.

If you drop even 5°C before you reach the bucket, that drops to 1/10, and 10°C drops it to 1/20. Just waiting a few minutes and factoring in the heat capacity of the bucket is likely to give you something like 5°C drop. I don't think there's a whole lot to worry about here.